Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Judaism: Forbidden art?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Bio-Electric Apprentice on February 05, 2010, 02:04:24 PM ---
I don't say rabbi's make things up; I point to the fact that a lot of things are argued about and so are not directly certain to a certain degree by Judaism itself.
--- End quote ---
Straw man argument. When rabbis dispute matters, it is within boundaries set out before them within the guidelines of Torah she baal peh. What you are saying, by your logic, would make the entire religion into a free-for-all. Yet it's not. Why? Very simply. Because it is not as you say.
There are certain matters about which no one argues. Then there are more complicated issues that are less agreed upon where there are differing opinions, and ultimately a psak halacha. And then in even more complicated cases (even less) there is not a set determined psak halacha and there will be differences of opinion from rabbi to rabbi. Not from goy to goy or lay person to lay person, but from qualified wise knowledgable rabbi who knows the sources to knowledgable qualified wise rabbi who knows the sources. You are trying to argue based on nothing, about things which there is nothing to argue about, and about which you have no knowledge in the sources. So again, what you say here matters not one iota.
Do not distort reality and deceive the Jews reading this into thinking your invented idea is true that Judaism means you can make up any idea you want and say that it is Torah, just because rabbis sometimes argue. This is called a straw man argument and it is simply not true.
--- Quote ---I don't understand why you seem to see me as if I would have a problem with how the Halacha has been determined. I just give my own explanation based on how awareness works. This is not contradicting Judaism.
--- End quote ---
Once again being disingenuous. If you contradict the halacha, with whatever made up idea you have, you ARE contradicting Judaism. Very simple.
--- Quote ---Kwrbt is getting heated up for no apparent reasons other than that I apparently seem to tighten up the rules for idolatry and refute his idiotic personal comments.
--- End quote ---
Once again you go on the attack and mock me, but you are not mocking me because it was not my "personal comments." Like I've repeated a thousand times in this thread, I was giving over the understanding of my rabbi explicitly as he told it to me since he is expert in these issues. You have the audacity to call it "idiotic" well I feel bad for you and what you will face for this. Once again this is over the line and has no place on this forum.
Let's get it straight so you can stop dodging and hiding and playing games.
If you dismiss out of hand a halachic decision of an Orthodox rabbi because you think you know better even though you don't even know Jewish law, and you provide no basis, you are attacking Judaism.
If you call a rabbi's ideas "idiotic" for no reason, you are attacking Judaism and that rabbi. (Although it is quite laughable to see you say such a thing given my rabbi's vast knowledge - what he says is far from "idiotic" ).
If you as a non-Jew attempt to tell Jews how to keep Jewish law, to teach Jews Torah, your behavior is a desecration surely violating Jewish law, and you are attacking Judaism and contradicting it.
Very simple. Starting to get it yet?
Instead of reflexively insisting that you are right here, why not get your ego in check in realize that you have overstepped your bounds as I have tried to tell you several times now.
Muman, you are going way too easy on this guy.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Masha on February 05, 2010, 02:44:29 PM ---So there are no sculptures in art museums in Israel?
--- End quote ---
I'm sure there are, but the people who made them if they made sculptures of humans, were clearly in violation. That's a shame. Israel as a state however does not necessarily follow the Torah in many avenues, so I'm sure such a museum would be in existence and contain such "artwork." If Jews followed Torah they would not be building statues of humans.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 05, 2010, 02:14:19 PM ---
There is nothing wrong with drawings and photographs which are 2 dimensional representations. But the questions begin when we are talking about statues.... There is disagreement on whether just a Bust {a head and chest} and not the whole human figure is made into a statue... Some of the Rabbis say that busts and incomplete statues {ones which have had limbs broken off, etc.} are not a violation of the 2nd commandment while others take a more strict view... Also making representations of the sun the moon and the stars is explicitly forbidden by the 2nd commandment.
--- End quote ---
Ah, very good. My rabbi also brought up this disagreement. He suggested a bust was ok in his opinion as he considered it incomplete. But I think he meant that as a b'diavad situation (after the fact- as in, if it was already made, ok, but that a person shouldn't make one). I would have to double-check with him again to make sure I understood him correctly.
Spiraling Leopard:
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 07, 2010, 01:45:50 PM ---You instructed white israelite what to do after he asked a halachic question. What don't you understand? I don't need any counseling, and I would say you need your head examined, but I know you are being disingenuous. So cut the games and stop playing around. You know exactly what you did here, and you are trying to hide yourself and get all defensive as if I'm doing something wrong. What you have done in this thread is ridiculous. Completely over the line. There is no place for this here.
--- End quote ---
This is an open forum so I will give my opinion as many times as I want. All you are doing is crying about a topic being side-tracked, when this is a normal phenomena on fora. You act like a saviour towards other Jews by trying to 'protect' them. All you do is insulting Jews by claiming they can't think for themselves. This forum is not strictly for Jews; if you have a problem with that, don't come here.
You can rant all you want about me not knowing anything about Judaism; I never claimed I did.
"You instructed white israelite", "you know exactly what you did here"
You are a demagogue. You accuse me of trying to make Jews believe they can make anything up and you accuse me of trying to mindrape Jews out of Judaism. You can study scriptures all you want; your mouth is filled with filth.
And before you start crying over mockery and attacks; this is a mere observation.
I rationalize a thesis and you simply are unable to point out any flaw in my 'speculation' and cannot argue against it.
When I point to the fact that rabbi's still argue about things I do not turn Judaism in a free-for-all. You are a demagogue
.
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 01, 2010, 03:00:14 PM ---Bio, but the second commandment says not to make anything living, anything on earth and under the water....
I think that this interpretation is the 'strict' interpretation and I have seen more liberal interpretations even from Orthodox sources...
--- End quote ---
You call having a different opinion 'attacking'. This is an attempt to 'hide' that you are a demagogue by pretending to be a crybaby.
Again you are a demagogue when you say I call your rabbi's statements 'idiotic'. Apparently you have a bit of a 'blind spot' when it comes to your own flaws with 'idiotic personal statements'.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Bio-Electric Apprentice on February 08, 2010, 04:02:27 PM ---
--- Quote from: Kahane-Was-Right BT on February 07, 2010, 01:45:50 PM ---You instructed white israelite what to do after he asked a halachic question. What don't you understand? I don't need any counseling, and I would say you need your head examined, but I know you are being disingenuous. So cut the games and stop playing around. You know exactly what you did here, and you are trying to hide yourself and get all defensive as if I'm doing something wrong. What you have done in this thread is ridiculous. Completely over the line. There is no place for this here.
--- End quote ---
This is an open forum so I will give my opinion as many times as I want. All you are doing is crying about a topic being side-tracked, when this is a normal phenomena on fora. You act like a saviour towards other Jews by trying to 'protect' them. All you do is insulting Jews by claiming they can't think for themselves. This forum is not strictly for Jews; if you have a problem with that, don't come here.
You can rant all you want about me not knowing anything about Judaism; I never claimed I did.
--- End quote ---
Here you go again with your obfuscation and ad hominem attacks - classic tactics employed by missionaries.
Stop playing games. I really thought you were going to grow up and let this thread go away yet you keep bringing it back up. Never did I say Jews can't think for themselves. This is your tactic. You make a straw-man out of me by accusing me of claiming this, and with this you attack me and Judaism. All I did was point out that your baseless opinion, which is worth nothing, was clearly in contradiction to what I had posted right beforehand as what Jewish law says about the issue. White Israelite asked what Jewish law says about the issue. Not what Obongo's cousin Leroy says about the issue. It's really quite simple.
You took offense to that. So you accused me of thinking I'm 'all knowing' when I merely pointed out that what you said contradicted Jewish law. That set the ball rolling and you just won't let it go. That led you to attack Judaism itself because you quite clearly are saying you don't accept what Jewish law says and you have a problem with the fact that your subjective view is dismissed out of hand on the grounds that it contradicts Jewish law and Jewish tradition. This "problem" of your prompted you to make a snide remark about me. Well, Jews do accept what Jewish tradition says, and that is why white israelite asked. You just refuse to accept that you crossed the line.
--- Quote ---"You instructed white israelite", "you know exactly what you did here"
You are a demagogue. You accuse me of trying to make Jews believe they can make anything up and you accuse me of trying to mindrape Jews out of Judaism. You can study scriptures all you want; your mouth is filled with filth.
--- End quote ---
Filth? What filth would that be? You have a lot of nerve. You are the one who just used a filthy term. "mindrape" ? You are grasping for straws because you know you are wrong. You said an opinion that has nothing to do with Jewish law and contradicts Jewish law. Therefore it's incorrect as an instruction to a Jewish person as to how to behave. And thus completely irrelevant and baseless, like anyone's opinion. I can think the moon is made of cheese, but that does not mean that Jewish law says so. So why is my pointing out that you are incorrect, objectively speaking, from the standpoint of Jewish law, an invitation to insult me with snide remarks, say that I'm 'all knowing' and then call me a "demagogue" 15 times? You are once again over the line.
--- Quote ---And before you start crying over mockery and attacks; this is a mere observation.
--- End quote ---
It's an "observation" to say my mouth is filled with filth?
--- Quote ---I rationalize a thesis and you simply are unable to point out any flaw in my 'speculation' and cannot argue against it.
--- End quote ---
Now you are simply lying. And again you are trying to promote your own theories as if they are fact.
--- Quote ---When I point to the fact that rabbi's still argue about things I do not turn Judaism in a free-for-all. You are a demagogue
--- End quote ---
Done whining now? Done with the ad hominem attacks or do you have more names for me?
I can see that the moderators are using the kid-gloves with you because you got publicity for JTF. This is wrong. You need to understand the guidelines of the forum and understand where you go over the line.
--- Quote from: muman613 on February 01, 2010, 03:00:14 PM ---Bio, but the second commandment says not to make anything living, anything on earth and under the water....
I think that this interpretation is the 'strict' interpretation and I have seen more liberal interpretations even from Orthodox sources...
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---You call having a different opinion 'attacking'. This is an attempt to 'hide' that you are a demagogue by pretending to be a crybaby.
Again you are a demagogue when you say I call your rabbi's statements 'idiotic'. Apparently you have a bit of a 'blind spot' when it comes to your own flaws with 'idiotic personal statements'.
--- End quote ---
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Nope, I don't call having a different opinion attacking. I call attacking attacking.
Do you ever say anything of substance or do you just accuse accuse accuse and insult insult insult. You need to be told what is acceptable on this forum and what isn't. I don't care how many signs you hold up on tv.
Like I've said 100 times already, I was giving over his opinion on the matter, in Jewish law, not some baseless speculation I came up with by listening to the birds. So why don't you be more specific and tell us exactly what is "idiotic" ?
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