Avoiding sexual sin

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

I think then that they more than likely weren't meant to be. (Of course that is not any kind of excuse for a divorce.)

[Cato]

One of the finest geneticists of the 20th century, CD Darlington, argued that abstaining from masturbation was about as logical as abstaining from certain other bodily functions which I care not to mention. He also said that morality should be based on biology, rather than the other way around. Interesting thoughts, don't shout me down, I just thought that they added some new dimensions to the discussion..

[Cato]

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

I think then that they more than likely weren't meant to be. (Of course that is not any kind of excuse for a divorce.)

One solution for this, and perhaps the only one, would be extensive cohabitation and sex before marriage, unless we relax a little and allow masturbation (perhaps I should rephrase that). Masturbation seems a better answer than divorce, but that's just my irreligous opinion..

[Dr. Dan]

I am sure there are situations where a Jewish husband and Jewish wife are married and they were practicing a ritual called, Nidda, but one or both parties has a higher sex drive.  Before I get into it, let me explain Nidda:  Nidda is the refrainment from sexual practice all of the days of the menstruation followed by 7 clean days, after which the wife goes to a Mikva bath.  The rationale, I believe, behind Nidda is that on some women at the end of Nidda it is the day of her ovulation and therefore, if her husband refrains from "spilling his seed" during those 12 days, they have a high likelihood of getting pregnant...and you see how many religious Jews have lots of kids... Now, the other rationale of Nidda is to have a healthy marriage with a fruitful sex life.  I personally believe that this is the main Jewish reason of following Nidda.

How does Nidda improve one's marriage if they refrain from sex 12-14 days?  Well, what if every night you ate your favorite dinner and nothing else...and it was every single day? I think eventually you would want to eat something else.  Sex in marriage can happen the same way.  Studies have shown that when couples do not practice Nidda, there is a higher risk of infidelity or divorce.   So imagine not being able to have sexual graification for 12-14 days....and your holding it in and holding it in...until Nidda ends...its like having sex for the first time with one's spouse right after marriage.  Imagine how much more wonderful that would feel let alone how much more lasting love you would have with your spouse during that time of withholding intercourse.

On another note, I realize that this topic is very adult, but I think it's a topic that can be shared with mature teenagers as well.  So my apologies if I'm being offensive to anyone here.  This is purely educational.

So going back to the original post about masturbation especially during marriage...if a husband does it (I can't speak for women because women experience a different type of orgasm), he's only cheating himself and his wife...especially during the Nidda period.  If they are doing it together, well, it's their discretion..therefore, I don't condemn nor condone it...it's between the both of them and they work out what works for them in the short and long term.

Now, what if he and/or she have a higher sex drive and never can wait 12 days?  My answer is that he should consult with his rabbi.  There are justifications of having shorter Nidda periods, but I don't know what they are and it should be addressed by a rabbi.

  Muman or Chaim or anyone else who knows the rules better than me, please make any corrections.

Muman, you took the words right out of my mouth.

Masturbation and porn are not a way to release. They are addictions and habits. Even if an unmarried man does it all the time, instead of sleeping around which is a worse thing, when he gets married, it could become a hard addiction to break.

It can be a bigger betrayal to one's wife if her husband masturbates without her. 

And especially a Rabbi who is married, how could he live with himself if he do such a thing?!

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

[Dr. Dan]

Listen, it's about respect and love of one's spouse; not temptation.  Temptation are for animals and Muslims. 

The first step is, you don't touch another woman who isn't your wife and vice versa.  Not because it can tempt a husband to cheat on his wife...but out of respect of one's own wife.  The same goes with staring and having a long gaze at another woman.  I mean, come one, all of us married and single come across attractive women and we look.  And some of those women wear clothing that shows a lot more than we really need to see.  Proper respect of a husband is not to stare...not because he'll get tempted, but out of respect of his wife.  If a husband is avoiding touching or staring at another woman, he should do it out of respect of his wife who he loves with all his heart;  If it is because he'll be tempted to have sex with a different woman, then he has deeper issues and needs a psychiatrist.

Part of the problem is that a man must control his eyes..

Or cover up the women.

[Dr. Dan]

Great post...

The post preceding mine said this:

"I did take a glimpse at that site and I saw some of their comments about not masturbating.  I am not saying I condone it.  Honestly for me, if I need to masturbate then I do it, I feel it is better than acting on my thoughts with another man.  I know that is not the Torah way, but for me it is a baby step in the right direction if I have to."

So I just thought it would be a good place to mention an opinion I have on the matter.  I am not saying masturbation is okay according to Halakha.  But I am familiar with (as somebody already pointed out) the Kabbalistic hysteria associated with it and I'd like to put it in perspective.  Also, does anybody here seriously doubt that many otherwise righteous Jews masturbate in private?  I can't prove it but I think it quite likely that no matter how long his beard is, how black his coat, how furry his shtreimel, how frantically he shuckles when he davens - under all that piety is a masturbater.  I'll go even further than that.  I'd wager (if I could) that many upstanding rabbis secretly harbor strange fetishes - just like anybody else.  I'm not saying they all act on them.  I'm just saying that that venerable old sage you show your wife's rags to may inwardly smile at (fill in the blank) _________________.  I don't know if anybody bothered to read the intro to haMmafteah I posted in the Judaism section, but I touched on this topic there as well.

Why stop at Jews?  Almost every single citizen of these United States would show disgust at other people's sexual fetishes/preferences.  Yet he might consider suicide if his own became public knowledge.  We are so two faced when it comes to sex it's even rather funny.  Each one of you, reading this, knows his own perversions and yet you can outwardly make believe that you are "normal".   I doubt that anybody is really "normal" and, if there were such a creature, I'd venture to say that he is abnormal merely by virtue of being normal.  It's an odd charade we humans play.

If a man has a healthy enough relationship with his wife, there is no need for this other junk.   Obviously not everyone has such a healthy relationship. But with the right kind of relationship and a little self control, it is not inevitable like you say.    What's worse is, by implying that "everyone does it (even the most pious)" - which of course is not true, you don't have any evidence to say everyone does it - but by implying that, you encourage other people to sin.   It is difficult enough for a man to control these matters, a man does not need your assuaging him to let his guard down.   But being that you're such a rationalist in arguing against zohar, etc... it seems very odd to me that you would state something so baseless that you cannot possibly know for a fact and which has no objective evidence to support it!  That is neither rational nor believable.

There is something called projection.   Sometimes when a person does a certain thing and he does not want to take responsibility for doing it (or for not resisting it), he will convince himself and suggest to others that everyone does that thing which he does, even though in reality it is his own hangup.  Not saying this applies to you, but throwing out this info for the sake of general knowledge.  Such a person should see a therapist/psychologist and get serious, genuine help for his problems to work through them in a concentrated way.   He should not brandish these matters about on a public forum making light of it and causing others to fall in the muck with him.

[Dr. Dan]

Wrong...Many virgin women will start out with a much lower sex drive than her husband who might have had experience...that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't meant to be.

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

I think then that they more than likely weren't meant to be. (Of course that is not any kind of excuse for a divorce.)

[Dr. Dan]

If we choose to be just like other animals and mammals, then this biologist is 100% correct.  However, since we are human beings and have free will to choose right from wrong and good from evil, I beg to differ.  Since human beings have free will, they are a special animal to not act upon things that are considered immoral even if natural to the animals.

One of the finest geneticists of the 20th century, CD Darlington, argued that abstaining from masturbation was about as logical as abstaining from certain other bodily functions which I care not to mention. He also said that morality should be based on biology, rather than the other way around. Interesting thoughts, don't shout me down, I just thought that they added some new dimensions to the discussion..

[Dr. Dan]

The reality is that it is between the husband and the wife of what the rules should be.  The Torah and Talmud give a recipe for what will make a marriage last, stay fruitful sexually through old age, and keep love strong.  If you are Jewish and engaged to get married, I would strongly recommend that you and your wife to be take marriage classes with an orthodox rabbi...secular or non secular...just take the classes to learn what the right way is...and try it...see what works.

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

I think then that they more than likely weren't meant to be. (Of course that is not any kind of excuse for a divorce.)

One solution for this, and perhaps the only one, would be extensive cohabitation and sex before marriage, unless we relax a little and allow masturbation (perhaps I should rephrase that). Masturbation seems a better answer than divorce, but that's just my irreligous opinion..

[Cato]

The reality is that it is between the husband and the wife of what the rules should be.  The Torah and Talmud give a recipe for what will make a marriage last, stay fruitful sexually through old age, and keep love strong.  If you are Jewish and engaged to get married, I would strongly recommend that you and your wife to be take marriage classes with an orthodox rabbi...secular or non secular...just take the classes to learn what the right way is...and try it...see what works.

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

I think then that they more than likely weren't meant to be. (Of course that is not any kind of excuse for a divorce.)

One solution for this, and perhaps the only one, would be extensive cohabitation and sex before marriage, unless we relax a little and allow masturbation (perhaps I should rephrase that). Masturbation seems a better answer than divorce, but that's just my irreligous opinion..

Thank you but I have been very happily married for 12 years to my Muslim wife.

[muman613]

The reality is that it is between the husband and the wife of what the rules should be.  The Torah and Talmud give a recipe for what will make a marriage last, stay fruitful sexually through old age, and keep love strong.  If you are Jewish and engaged to get married, I would strongly recommend that you and your wife to be take marriage classes with an orthodox rabbi...secular or non secular...just take the classes to learn what the right way is...and try it...see what works.

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

I think then that they more than likely weren't meant to be. (Of course that is not any kind of excuse for a divorce.)

One solution for this, and perhaps the only one, would be extensive cohabitation and sex before marriage, unless we relax a little and allow masturbation (perhaps I should rephrase that). Masturbation seems a better answer than divorce, but that's just my irreligous opinion..

Thank you but I have been very happily married for 12 years to my Muslim wife.

I sure hope you are NOT Jewish...

[Dr. Dan]

Are you Muslim also?

The reality is that it is between the husband and the wife of what the rules should be.  The Torah and Talmud give a recipe for what will make a marriage last, stay fruitful sexually through old age, and keep love strong.  If you are Jewish and engaged to get married, I would strongly recommend that you and your wife to be take marriage classes with an orthodox rabbi...secular or non secular...just take the classes to learn what the right way is...and try it...see what works.

What if two people are meant to be together but one has a higher sex drive than the other?

I think then that they more than likely weren't meant to be. (Of course that is not any kind of excuse for a divorce.)

One solution for this, and perhaps the only one, would be extensive cohabitation and sex before marriage, unless we relax a little and allow masturbation (perhaps I should rephrase that). Masturbation seems a better answer than divorce, but that's just my irreligous opinion..

Thank you but I have been very happily married for 12 years to my Muslim wife.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

One of the finest geneticists of the 20th century, CD Darlington, argued that abstaining from masturbation was about as logical as abstaining from certain other bodily functions which I care not to mention.

No, that's obviously not the same thing, and actually what he says is not logical.  Here is the very obvious reason:  Abstaining from going to the bathroom (excretion/egestion) causes severe health problems as doing so is damaging to health.   Abstaining from masturbation does not cause severe health problems as it is Not damaging or dangerous to the health to abstain from this.    So much for darlington's theories.  "Ethics" (real ethics) cannot be derived independent of revelation.   Otherwise it's just some guy who is a geneticist blowing into the wind about all sorts of topics and his personal theories on them, which have no relevance to the rest of us.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

One of the finest geneticists of the 20th century, CD Darlington, argued that abstaining from masturbation was about as logical as abstaining from certain other bodily functions which I care not to mention. He also said that morality should be based on biology, rather than the other way around. Interesting thoughts, don't shout me down, I just thought that they added some new dimensions to the discussion..

Oh and while we're at it, I'm sure Dr. Mohammad aljazeera jihadi abujabi Shahid, expert "Muslimist" of the 21st century also says that abstaining from suicide bombing is as logical as abstaining from normal bodily functions.   This type of "logic" in so-called morality of humanism can be taken anywhere, by anyone.

[GoIsraelGo!]

I have a friend who found out her husband was getting emails of beautiful women with cars, on motor bikes, young beautiful blondes in bikinis....this hurt my friend deeply and she could not endure her husband looking at other women, so this became an issue in their marriage and caused fighting...my friends husband has now made an effort to ask his friends not to send these types of emails and he cleaned his computer of all the images his friends sent him.

My friend is still having issues despite her husbands efforts to stop it or hide it from her.
She has become untrusting of him due to the knowledge that he likes to look at other womens images. This has made her feel undesirable.... and her husband cannot understand why she feels this way.
Some men ( not all ) are ignorant...they don't want their wives to complain when they look at other women...and at the same time they do not stop to think how they would feel if the situation were reversed.

[Dr. Dan]

I have a friend who found out her husband was getting emails of beautiful women with cars, on motor bikes, young beautiful blondes in bikinis....this hurt my friend deeply and she could not endure her husband looking at other women, so this became an issue in their marriage and caused fighting...my friends husband has now made an effort to ask his friends not to send these types of emails and he cleaned his computer of all the images his friends sent him.

My friend is still having issues despite her husbands efforts to stop it or hide it from her.
She has become untrusting of him due to the knowledge that he likes to look at other womens images. This has made her feel undesirable.... and her husband cannot understand why she feels this way.
Some men ( not all ) are ignorant...they don't want their wives to complain when they look at other women...and at the same time they do not stop to think how they would feel if the situation were reversed.

honestly, I feel that if he likes doing these things, he should do it with her as long as she enjoys it too.  Sometimes it can spice up a sex life if it helps the husband perform better and pleasure his wife...however, it has to be a joint venture and done openly, honestly, and with respect.

I hope he doesn't cheat on her and go to nude bars.

[GoIsraelGo!]

I have consoled her by phone and here is an example of their typical daily/ weekly argument on the subject:


Him : " What, you want me to have blinders on? " All men look at these pictures "

" I am a man and it is perfectly normal for me to want to look at other women "

Her response :  " You don't have to have blinders on, but why should I accept being second best? " You look at women who are 20 years younger than me and if you want to do this, let's get a divorce! "  " You can be free to enjoy all you want without having me around to complain about it "
" You claim to be in love with me but if that is the case, then you would have no desire to look at younger beautiful girls in bikinis "

His response : " I am getting sick of your insecurities " " you never drop this subject and keep whining about it "  " If you don't stop this I will leave you "

her response :  " Leave because I would not have to deal with this issue any longer "

I do feel sorry for her....I hope she and her husband can work out this sensitive issue, because they do love each other...despite the love the couple have for one another this issue of   him looking at other women is not completely resolved.

[Dr. Dan]

It sounds like he takes her for granted. They need to see a marriage counselor.

[muman613]

In my opinion men should avoid looking at the women, especially if he is married because it gives the wrong signals to everyone involved. Men should be thinking about their wives, not the other women, and we do look at younger women... This kind of thing messed up my marriage and I know from experience that the woman usually ends up feeling inferior to the other women...

Then the woman will try to use her friends to make the man jealous and it turns into a sick little game. It is best to keep your eyes and your heart away from the temptation of these kinds of women.

[GoIsraelGo!]

Agreed, they should seek marriage counseling or their marriage may not last.




                                          Shalom - Dox

[Edward]

No offence meant, I can't understand how can a guy be gay... I mean, women are the best! they have everything you need, it's so natural for us men, to be attracted to these feminine creatures :-)
I hope that you get out of this terrible condition, and may the good Lord bless you and show you the way out of this sickness. Amen.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Edward,

I hope you learn to take a look in the mirror before you start pointing your finger at others.  It's always the people who point at others who have the most to hide.  Anyway, I've noticed this is how threads usually take a turn for the 8th grade, so thank you to everyone who posted and used this topic as an opportunity to take a look into themselves and be supportive of a fellow member.  Peace.