Author Topic: What do you think about these Tefillin?  (Read 6333 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
What do you think about these Tefillin?
« on: June 13, 2010, 04:13:50 AM »
http://www.ajudaica.com/category/3/Tefillin/

It's not my bar mitzvah.  But it is my 32nd birthday this month.  A set of Tefillin is what I want for my birthday present [bless my parents for their love, generosity, and support of Judaism].  My parents live in a tiny town in the boondocks in Northern New York, there is no Judica shop near by.  I need to find a way to find kosher Teffillin and for it to be online so my parents can pay by credit card.  I've tried searching for a Chabad store but when I click on the link it goes to a dead page. -- My concern is making sure I get proper kosher Teffilin, not just something that "looks the part" but is not.

Regarding Sephardic vs. Ashekenazi...  is it a big deal for a person of European Jew descent to be more interested in Sephardic customs?  I LOVE many things about Ashkenazic culture, but in my opinion Judaism is a middle eastern religion and Sephardic Jews practice customs more similar to Mizrahim [middle eastern] Jews. -- What would Moshe wrap?

I am excited!  The only times I have wrapped Teffilin have been when either Chabad or Orthodox Jews sit out in society looking for Jews to ask, "have you wrapped Teffilin today"? --  Soon I will be able to wrap Teffilin every day when I wake up [except Shabbat, I understand].  I have gotten a handsome musician stand to hold my Siddur, so everything seems to be clicking into place for a proper dignified [and easy] way to pray in my home each day.

Todah Rabbah. :dance:
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2010, 06:07:24 AM »
http://www.ajudaica.com/category/3/Tefillin/

Regarding Sephardic vs. Ashekenazi...  is it a big deal for a person of European Jew descent to be more interested in Sephardic customs? 

No.  All the customs are beautiful.  Anyone who tells you otherwise has an agenda.  And I have been told otherwise, personally, by certain so-called rabbis, and I disagree strongly with their point of view.  Often times it is people with the least knowledge who say such things as "You're from Poland (or, russia, or france, etc etc), so you have to do everything like Ashkenazim"  "You have to follow the 'customs of your forefathers' "  etc.   These are usually the most ignorant people and "rabbis" who really know next to nothing about halacha or what the sources say.   These types of arguments are especially irrelevant for Jews like you and me, who really did not receive customs from our parents/fathers/grandfathers, since we are baalei teshuvah.   But even for people who did, there is no reason why a person has to maintain the galut-based distinctions between types of Jews which only developed in the darkness of galut due to dispersed populations and different locations.   The historical fact of these developed distinctions has been distorted into a racial theory/segregation plan by some Jews.   In my opinion, this is not only unnecessary but it leads to sinat chinam and the perpetuation of this system in our day in fact might even be based in sinat chinam.

It always sounds very funny to me, that let's say a Jew born into an Orthodox family who is 3rd or 4th generation American, or several generations living in Israel, that somehow he has to pretend that he's Hungarian because his family at some arbitrary (convenient) point in history lived in Hungary or came from Hungary to his current place, several generations before he was born.  Such a person has no connection to Hungary.  The person is American.  Or Israeli.  etc.    And if we're going back in history, why don't we go all the way back?  Why stop at 100 years or 150 or 200 years?    Why not go back to the time when ALL Jews originated from the Middle East, from the land of Israel which we settled as the tribes of Yaakov, and later from a secondary location of Bavel which we were exiled to and spread out from in addition to Eretz Yisrael.   So we all stem from Israeli/Babylonian forefathers.   Yet these same people/"rabbis" will have no problem with a Sephardic Jew baal teshuvah taking on customs of Europe and/or becoming Ashkenazi, and they even encourage it in most cases!   I have seen this with my own eyes many many times.    Such utter hypocrisy.

Quote
I LOVE many things about Ashkenazic culture, but in my opinion Judaism is a middle eastern religion and Sephardic Jews practice customs more similar to Mizrahim [middle eastern] Jews. -- What would Moshe wrap? 

On the one hand, it may be that Ashkenazim are more culturally removed from ancient Jews since you're correct that Jews are middle eastern and Judaism originated in the Middle east, however, that should not be applied as a blanket statement to all matters.   Because, in fact, there are many issues in which the populations of Ashkenaz (Germany) and France preserved the traditions of the Talmud Yerushalmi and the minhagim of the Jews from Eretz Yisrael!   This is because Jews ending up in Europe were mostly coming from Eretz Yisrael and from Eretz Yisrael by way of Italy, whereas the "Sephardic" (ie those who settled into Spain) and Middle Eastern/Mizrahi Jews mostly spread out from Bavel (Babylon).    And both groups preserved various ancient customs from either Eretz Yisrael or Bavel or both, and one would need to examine each issue specifically.   When it comes to halacha, thanks to the compilation and then writing of the Talmud, most of these things were preserved, and it is more customary/cultural things where there are variations and different cultural factors involved, and the unclear minhagim or questions not addressed directly in Talmud where errors could have creeped in or just local differences (ie singing style, songs, etc).   

As far as tefillin goes, it seems that today all people sephardi and ashkenazi ,and other groups (except maybe teymanim) wear the same type of tefillin which is made from cowhide, and cut with precision instruments to make the familiar black-box look.    The ancient type of tefillin was different in ashkenaz and in the middle east because it was not made of cow hide, and it was much less strong and less durable.  I believe it was made from the sheep if I remember correctly.    And of course hand made.   

I have seen online that certain Teymani scribes sell their traditional tefillin, which they did not adapt their method when the times changed or new technologies introduced.  While it's probably very expensive, it is a nice feeling to help a scribe with his parnassa who is handmaking your tefillin and to have an ancient set.   But most people go for the standard set, which is what I have.    It may be that some Sephardim wear a smaller tefillin.   In that case, I'm not sure if there were multiple traditions, or if maybe the smaller kind is more ancient etc.  That may also be slightly more money since it takes more precision to make.   I would say you can't really go wrong with any type of tefillin you get that is halachically sound, but if you prefer a more ancient or hand-made variety go with what you like.

Quote
I am excited!  The only times I have wrapped Teffilin have been when either Chabad or Orthodox Jews sit out in society looking for Jews to ask, "have you wrapped Teffilin today"? --  Soon I will be able to wrap Teffilin every day when I wake up [except Shabbat, I understand].  I have gotten a handsome musician stand to hold my Siddur, so everything seems to be clicking into place for a proper dignified [and easy] way to pray in my home each day.

Todah Rabbah. :dance:

Kol Hakavod.   It's an amazing thing that you have embraced your identity as a Jew.  This is one step of "naaseh venishma."    The first step is the commitment (naaseh, we will do), you're loyal to G-d and the Torah, and the second step is venishma (and we will hear/understand) - to learn about what it all entails.   It's a process (there's all manner of recommiting along the way), and these two steps commitment and learning are inseparable.   I wish you hatzlaha on your personal journey.  What you've done already is an amazing accomplishment.

Offline White Israelite

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4535
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2010, 11:52:04 AM »
Nothing wrong with embracing Sephardic culture if your family came from Europe, i am glad someone out there takes interest in Sephardic culture. It seems our food is becoming more popular amongst the Ashkenazi as well.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 06:18:05 PM »
http://www.ajudaica.com/category/3/Tefillin/

Regarding Sephardic vs. Ashekenazi...  is it a big deal for a person of European Jew descent to be more interested in Sephardic customs? 

No.  All the customs are beautiful.  Anyone who tells you otherwise has an agenda.  And I have been told otherwise, personally, by certain so-called rabbis, and I disagree strongly with their point of view.  Often times it is people with the least knowledge who say such things as "You're from Poland (or, russia, or france, etc etc), so you have to do everything like Ashkenazim"  "You have to follow the 'customs of your forefathers' "  etc.   These are usually the most ignorant people and "rabbis" who really know next to nothing about halacha or what the sources say.   These types of arguments are especially irrelevant for Jews like you and me, who really did not receive customs from our parents/fathers/grandfathers, since we are baalei teshuvah.   But even for people who did, there is no reason why a person has to maintain the galut-based distinctions between types of Jews which only developed in the darkness of galut due to dispersed populations and different locations.   The historical fact of these developed distinctions has been distorted into a racial theory/segregation plan by some Jews.   In my opinion, this is not only unnecessary but it leads to sinat chinam and the perpetuation of this system in our day in fact might even be based in sinat chinam.

It always sounds very funny to me, that let's say a Jew born into an Orthodox family who is 3rd or 4th generation American, or several generations living in Israel, that somehow he has to pretend that he's Hungarian because his family at some arbitrary (convenient) point in history lived in Hungary or came from Hungary to his current place, several generations before he was born.  Such a person has no connection to Hungary.  The person is American.  Or Israeli.  etc.    And if we're going back in history, why don't we go all the way back?  Why stop at 100 years or 150 or 200 years?    Why not go back to the time when ALL Jews originated from the Middle East, from the land of Israel which we settled as the tribes of Yaakov, and later from a secondary location of Bavel which we were exiled to and spread out from in addition to Eretz Yisrael.   So we all stem from Israeli/Babylonian forefathers.   Yet these same people/"rabbis" will have no problem with a Sephardic Jew baal teshuvah taking on customs of Europe and/or becoming Ashkenazi, and they even encourage it in most cases!   I have seen this with my own eyes many many times.    Such utter hypocrisy.

Quote
I LOVE many things about Ashkenazic culture, but in my opinion Judaism is a middle eastern religion and Sephardic Jews practice customs more similar to Mizrahim [middle eastern] Jews. -- What would Moshe wrap? 

On the one hand, it may be that Ashkenazim are more culturally removed from ancient Jews since you're correct that Jews are middle eastern and Judaism originated in the Middle east, however, that should not be applied as a blanket statement to all matters.   Because, in fact, there are many issues in which the populations of Ashkenaz (Germany) and France preserved the traditions of the Talmud Yerushalmi and the minhagim of the Jews from Eretz Yisrael!   This is because Jews ending up in Europe were mostly coming from Eretz Yisrael and from Eretz Yisrael by way of Italy, whereas the "Sephardic" (ie those who settled into Spain) and Middle Eastern/Mizrahi Jews mostly spread out from Bavel (Babylon).    And both groups preserved various ancient customs from either Eretz Yisrael or Bavel or both, and one would need to examine each issue specifically.   When it comes to halacha, thanks to the compilation and then writing of the Talmud, most of these things were preserved, and it is more customary/cultural things where there are variations and different cultural factors involved, and the unclear minhagim or questions not addressed directly in Talmud where errors could have creeped in or just local differences (ie singing style, songs, etc).   

As far as tefillin goes, it seems that today all people sephardi and ashkenazi ,and other groups (except maybe teymanim) wear the same type of tefillin which is made from cowhide, and cut with precision instruments to make the familiar black-box look.    The ancient type of tefillin was different in ashkenaz and in the middle east because it was not made of cow hide, and it was much less strong and less durable.  I believe it was made from the sheep if I remember correctly.    And of course hand made.   

I have seen online that certain Teymani scribes sell their traditional tefillin, which they did not adapt their method when the times changed or new technologies introduced.  While it's probably very expensive, it is a nice feeling to help a scribe with his parnassa who is handmaking your tefillin and to have an ancient set.   But most people go for the standard set, which is what I have.    It may be that some Sephardim wear a smaller tefillin.   In that case, I'm not sure if there were multiple traditions, or if maybe the smaller kind is more ancient etc.  That may also be slightly more money since it takes more precision to make.   I would say you can't really go wrong with any type of tefillin you get that is halachically sound, but if you prefer a more ancient or hand-made variety go with what you like.

Quote
I am excited!  The only times I have wrapped Teffilin have been when either Chabad or Orthodox Jews sit out in society looking for Jews to ask, "have you wrapped Teffilin today"? --  Soon I will be able to wrap Teffilin every day when I wake up [except Shabbat, I understand].  I have gotten a handsome musician stand to hold my Siddur, so everything seems to be clicking into place for a proper dignified [and easy] way to pray in my home each day.

Todah Rabbah. :dance:

Kol Hakavod.   It's an amazing thing that you have embraced your identity as a Jew.  This is one step of "naaseh venishma."    The first step is the commitment (naaseh, we will do), you're loyal to G-d and the Torah, and the second step is venishma (and we will hear/understand) - to learn about what it all entails.   It's a process (there's all manner of recommiting along the way), and these two steps commitment and learning are inseparable.   I wish you hatzlaha on your personal journey.  What you've done already is an amazing accomplishment.

Thank you for your great response.  I think you made a salient point about the Talmud in European Jew tradition.  I really enjoy reading about Tanya from Chabad at times, and also the teachings of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov, so I do try and get a bit from each camp I suppose.  I really like that Israeli society is a mixture of Jews from all over the world who suddenly moved to a small, new country, and now every Jew has the chance to see how the rest of the world truly lives and share customs with each other.  What a rich culture!  God willing, I will make Aliyah and get to immerse myself in it.  I had a 2 year plan to get there, and it was going well, but now my Dad wants me to come and work for him and I have the chance to learn a trade which could both make me a decent living in Israel, and help a lot of people more so than before [different types of biofeedback which help a persons brain repair itself, or function at a higher level.  Maybe someone like the soldiers on the flotilla who received many traumatic blows to their skulls could benefit; tough choice to stay in the US longer but worth it to be able to give back].  My Mom and I are supposed to take a trip together in the next year so we will get to make a visit and bask in the radiance of modern Israel firsthand! :)  Neither of us has been before.  We are both quite excited. :dance: :dance: :dance:

I am the first man to practice Judaism in many generations of my family.  My Mom is the first woman to do so in a few generations as well.  Both of us have spent a long time learning about what it actually means to be Jewish aside from liking bagels and Seinfeld, which isn't really that Jewish at all!  It has been an exciting an exhilarating time for both of us.  We both hope my younger brother will gain interest as well, but are not pushing at him, but I did send him a book on Rashi and a Tanakh, and with out fail he texts me back every Friday during the day time, "Shabbat Shalom", and I think he is starting to also get some pride in his heritage.

Shalom!
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2010, 06:22:44 PM »
Nothing wrong with embracing Sephardic culture if your family came from Europe, i am glad someone out there takes interest in Sephardic culture. It seems our food is becoming more popular amongst the Ashkenazi as well.
:)

I very much enjoy Sephardic foods!  I found a few nice grocery stores here in the valley and have tried just about everything I have seen, and always try what is new to me.  I've learned how to make some fairly good hummus which I was told was extremely good last Sukkot, which meant a lot to me.  Also the baba ganoush, I've learned how to cook it over an open flame and I really enjoy the taste.  There is a Glatt Kosher restaurant I go to which has many different types of Jewish food from many different places, most seem to be locations where Sephardic Jews have lived, and every time I go there it is extremely pleasurable to eat there. -- Of course I still enjoy Gefillite fish, and other types of European Jew foods, I think I am most pleased when a variety of Jewish foods from around the globe all have a place at my plate. :dance:
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 06:33:56 PM »
Talking about Jewish food...

Do you have a favorite Cholent recipe? I like a little spice in my cholent...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2010, 02:15:16 AM »
Talking about Jewish food...

Do you have a favorite Cholent recipe? I like a little spice in my cholent...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholent
I think I am going to have to try making some of that.  12-hour cooking time...  I am beginning to see I like food prepared like this.  I have a crockpot so I might as well use it. -- I too would be interested if anyone has a good recipe for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jachnun
This is a breakfast item from Yemen.  It takes 10 hours to bake overnight so it is ready for breakfast.  Super delicious too.  I got my dough ready to go from the kosher market.

My roommate, who is not Jewish or religious, has been a super sport about not turning off the stove tops and oven or messing with the intensity of the flames on Shabbat.  I think I am going to switch to using a heat pad of stove top instead because there is less chance of burning up our apartment.  A Rabbi I speak with from time to time said it also eats up less resources to use an electric hot plate vs. flame stove top which is a good mitzvah to keep the planet green.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2010, 07:29:52 PM »
Talking about Jewish food...

Do you have a favorite Cholent recipe? I like a little spice in my cholent...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholent
I think I am going to have to try making some of that.  12-hour cooking time...  I am beginning to see I like food prepared like this.  I have a crockpot so I might as well use it. -- I too would be interested if anyone has a good recipe for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jachnun
This is a breakfast item from Yemen.  It takes 10 hours to bake overnight so it is ready for breakfast.  Super delicious too.  I got my dough ready to go from the kosher market.

My roommate, who is not Jewish or religious, has been a super sport about not turning off the stove tops and oven or messing with the intensity of the flames on Shabbat.  I think I am going to switch to using a heat pad of stove top instead because there is less chance of burning up our apartment.  A Rabbi I speak with from time to time said it also eats up less resources to use an electric hot plate vs. flame stove top which is a good mitzvah to keep the planet green.

If he's not Jewish, can't he turn the flame off to save himself money?  Would that be permitted?

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2010, 09:35:14 PM »
Talking about Jewish food...

Do you have a favorite Cholent recipe? I like a little spice in my cholent...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholent
I think I am going to have to try making some of that.  12-hour cooking time...  I am beginning to see I like food prepared like this.  I have a crockpot so I might as well use it. -- I too would be interested if anyone has a good recipe for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jachnun
This is a breakfast item from Yemen.  It takes 10 hours to bake overnight so it is ready for breakfast.  Super delicious too.  I got my dough ready to go from the kosher market.

My roommate, who is not Jewish or religious, has been a super sport about not turning off the stove tops and oven or messing with the intensity of the flames on Shabbat.  I think I am going to switch to using a heat pad of stove top instead because there is less chance of burning up our apartment.  A Rabbi I speak with from time to time said it also eats up less resources to use an electric hot plate vs. flame stove top which is a good mitzvah to keep the planet green.

If he's not Jewish, can't he turn the flame off to save himself money?  Would that be permitted?

I am not sure.  I will ask this Rabbi the next time I see him, which should be in about a week [I attend some classes he teaches].  I think it would be okay if my roommate turned off the heat if I didn't request it to be done...?  My roommate turned off the AC and back on with no suggestions from me, that was an occurrence I had nothing to do with [although I was glad because I was hot from all the extra cooking heat in the house!] so I was not the recipient of the direct benefit...  I believe I am not supposed to get non-Jews to do stuff for me on Shabbat as a way of short cutting the system.

"I am going to walk away from the stove, and if someone happens to turn if off when my back is turned......"

I'm just trying this stuff out for the first time.  It's been a progressive switch.

:)
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2010, 10:21:02 PM »
Actually a Shabbat Goy can do things for you under certain conditions...

For instance my ex-roommate used to like to mow the lawn on Shabbat... I did not ask him to do it then, but it was the time he wanted to do it, so he would mow the lawn on Shabbat. Also when our toilet overflowed one Shabbat I did not even need to ask him to repair it...

http://www.revach.net/ask/archives.php?cid=4&subcat=&page=40

Quote
Halacha - Shabbos goy
Submitted by anonymous  Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh

Question: I am quite confused about these halachos. I read in one place that you're not allowed to ask a goy to do anything you cannot do except under circumstances that do not apply to the regular kitcheny problems that arise. For instance: 1) If I've left the stove on too high (having forgotten to lower it before Shabbos) can I do anything and if so, can I go to my goyshe neighbour and say 'It's a pity the food will burn by the time we sit to have our meal?' (as a hint) I think I'm not allowed to say thank you. But thank you if you would enlighten me on this.

Answer:

It's very understandable why you are confused; amira l'akum is one of the most difficult parts of Hilchos Shabbos.

The rule you mentioned, not to ask a goy to do anything you may not do yourself is true. However, it is a general rule and has numerous exceptions. First of all hinting in the method you mentioned is permitted because you are not asking the goy to do anything. However, if you would phrase the hint in a way that is more direct such as "if you turn down the flame it would help me", it would be forbidden.

Additionally there is an issue deriving direct benefit from any melacha that was done for you on Shabbos even if done in a permitted fashion. So if you told your neighbor that the room is too dark to read in that would be a permitted hint, but when they turn on the light you would not be allowed to use it and may even have to leave the room. However, in the specific case you mentioned where you want the goy to prevent potential damage rather than create a benefit there is no problem.

I don't see any problem with saying thank you, and of course it's always important to maintain good, polite relations with all neighbors.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 10:26:29 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: What do you think about these Tefillin?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2010, 01:21:49 AM »
Actually a Shabbat Goy can do things for you under certain conditions...

For instance my ex-roommate used to like to mow the lawn on Shabbat... I did not ask him to do it then, but it was the time he wanted to do it, so he would mow the lawn on Shabbat. Also when our toilet overflowed one Shabbat I did not even need to ask him to repair it...

http://www.revach.net/ask/archives.php?cid=4&subcat=&page=40

Quote
Halacha - Shabbos goy
Submitted by anonymous  Answered by Rav Peretz Moncharsh

Question: I am quite confused about these halachos. I read in one place that you're not allowed to ask a goy to do anything you cannot do except under circumstances that do not apply to the regular kitcheny problems that arise. For instance: 1) If I've left the stove on too high (having forgotten to lower it before Shabbos) can I do anything and if so, can I go to my goyshe neighbour and say 'It's a pity the food will burn by the time we sit to have our meal?' (as a hint) I think I'm not allowed to say thank you. But thank you if you would enlighten me on this.

Answer:

It's very understandable why you are confused; amira l'akum is one of the most difficult parts of Hilchos Shabbos.

The rule you mentioned, not to ask a goy to do anything you may not do yourself is true. However, it is a general rule and has numerous exceptions. First of all hinting in the method you mentioned is permitted because you are not asking the goy to do anything. However, if you would phrase the hint in a way that is more direct such as "if you turn down the flame it would help me", it would be forbidden.

Additionally there is an issue deriving direct benefit from any melacha that was done for you on Shabbos even if done in a permitted fashion. So if you told your neighbor that the room is too dark to read in that would be a permitted hint, but when they turn on the light you would not be allowed to use it and may even have to leave the room. However, in the specific case you mentioned where you want the goy to prevent potential damage rather than create a benefit there is no problem.

I don't see any problem with saying thank you, and of course it's always important to maintain good, polite relations with all neighbors.


Very informative!  Thanks. :)
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein