Haredi idealism: keep Ashkenaz & Sefard education separate

[wonga66]

One's got to admire the Haredim in their singleminded rockhard preparedness to go in to exile from Israel, to be moser nefesh, and even to experience martyrdom, rather than to compromise on their principles: this time to prevent the High Court forcing  them to put Sefardi & Ashkenazi girls together http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=62309

If only they & their rebbes showed such devotedness in opposing Oslo and the Gaza deportation: neither would ever have happened.



Being half-Sefard half-Ashkenaz himself, what is Chaim's opinion on this?

[wonga66]

The Court is terrified of a mass Haredi demo/riot. Which could turn to bloodshed.

In fact gunning down Haredim in droves is the w** dream of many a Chilloni, Yamassnik and Yassamnik!

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Very interesting comments in the comments section.  This article is very misleading.  Lashon hora.

RG says:
June 15, 2010 at 9:56 am

Yoav Lallum does not need security officers.

The people of Emanuel need protection – from this media fabrication and miscarriage of justice.

Most of the Slonimer Hassidim have grandmothers who are Edut-HaMizrach – (Palestinian Jewish) women from Tiberias, where its Kollel was located since over 100 years ago unti the recent generation, when most of the community moved to Jerusalem. The yeshiva students married the local Palestinian Jewish women. So they are part Edut-HaMizrach, colloquially known as Sephardic.

The Beis Yaakov Chasidi was founded in 2007 as a stricter alternative to the original Beis Yaakov.

There are two other girls’ schools in Emanuel – theoriginal more lenient Beis Yaakov, the Chabad Lubavitch school founded in the late 1990’s, and the Beit Rachel and Leah, under the Shas-Mayan network of Sephardic schools, founded in 2007. This new Sephardic girls’ school attracted no media attention or lawsuits.

The three boy’s schools were then and continue to be Chabad Lubavitch, Shas-Mayan Sephardic, and Chassidic.

INVESTIGATION BY MINISTRY OF EDUCATION

Shulamit Amichai, the head of the Ministry of Education in 2007, sent attorney Mordechai Bass to investigate the situation. His states, “The division was not ethnic, it was religious. I am convinced that there is no ethnic discrimination.” (See synopsis at bottom of page).

30% of the girls attending Beis Yaakov Chasidi are Sephardic, not including those of blended heritage. 20% of the students in the original Beis Yaakov are Ashkenazi, many have blended heritage.

The guiding principles of our community are its various philosophies, not heritage. The leaders of the Beis Yaakov Chasidi really did not know or care who was Sephardic, Ashkenazic, newly religious, religious for generations, until this issue hit the news and they had to answer this question.

RAV SHIMON BA’ADANI FORBIDS USING SECULAR COURTS AND SECULAR MEDIA

HaRav HaGaon Rav Ba’adani wrote a letter that was distributed to every family in Emanuel in 2007 forbidding the bringing of grievances to the secular media or courts, and that any grievance must be brought to a religious court. It is a widely held practice to air grievances with the local Rabbi before going to religious court.

Rav Ba’adani is widely respected in the Haredi world. It is unlikely that anyone in the Beis Yaakov Chasidi or the original Beis Yaakov or Beit Rachel and Leah (the newly founded girls’ Sephardic School, unnoticed by the media or courts) or the Sephardic boys’ school or the Chassidic boys’ school would bring complaints to the secular media.

COURT HEARING APRIL 29 2010

The parents of the girls in the Beis Yaakov Chasidi who happen to be Sephardic petitioned to meet with the Supreme Court Judge Levi during the initial phases. He refused to meet with them.

The very first time the judge met with the parents was on April 29 2010. Only half the parents were allowed into the court, as there were many spectators in the courtroom. But if these parents were subpoenaed, shouldn’t the court have made room for them?

None of the parents were put on the stand or cross-examined
.
Judge Levi ordered representatives of the Beis Yaakov Chasidi to work out a compromise with the plaintiffs. That means that Yoav Lallum, was to be involved in the forming of the school’s rules.

And since no “agreement” had been reached, unlikely when working with an anti-religious activist, on May 17 Judge Admon Levi ordered all the girls to return to school and all be in the same classes. He also ordered that the Sephardic and Ashkenazi girls will have two separate tracts for prayer and halacha class. The Beis Yaakov Chasidi will close, only the original Beis Yaakov will exist.

But in the original Beis Yaakov, the girls have always prayed together, Sephardic liturgy. And there were not separate halacha classes for Sephardim and Ashkenazim, all the girls learned the entire spectrum of halacha. Ironically, the Supreme Court is making its own “separation” that the original Beis Yaakov and Chassidic Beis Yaakov never did.

But more importantly – where does the Israeli Supreme Court base its right to alter nuances in school curriculum? How can Judge Levi decide that there will be separate tracts for Ashkenazi and Sephardic students in prayer and Jewish Law – a separation that this community itself does not recognize?

It was stipulated in the court order that the parents could sign up their girls in any schools they wished, other than the Beis Yaakov Chasidi of Emanuel. The parents of the Beis Yaakov Chasidi then signed up their girls in the Beis Malka School in Bnei Brak.

On Sunday morning May 30, the first day that the girls from Emanuel attended this school in Bnei Brak, a group of reporters came to Emanuel and followed the morning bus, and filmed the girls entering this school. That day the school informed the parents that the Ministry of Education declared that they are not allowed to accept the girls from Emanuel.

OVERCROWDING IN RELIGIOUS ISRAELI SCHOOLS

Some classes in the cities have as much as forty five, even forty eight girls. A teacher in Jerusalem told me, “It can be nearly the end of the year before I get to know all my students.” This puts enormous pressure on students to compete for a limited amount of space.

High school is in some ways more important that seminary education in Israel, unlike the American model of college being of foremost importance. Living in smaller towns lessens the pressures of competing for places in high school without lowering standards of education, as the religious world is brimming with a surplus of teachers who themselves must move to smaller areas to secure employment.

SOME MORE INFORMATION ABOUT EMANUEL

Emanuel was a fairly easy target – deep in the Shomron, an unlikely place for many to visit and check the facts for themselves. Not a well-off community, with few resources for self-advocacy. Small enough that you are easily exposed to the great variety that exists within the Charedi world, and any place in which variety is supported fosters a healthy, moderate environment.

If you like languages, you could improve your Hebrew, Arabic, French, Russian, Yiddish, English, Judeo-Yemenite, Moroccan, Persian, Bucharian, Tunisian.

For religious choices you have the spiritual Sephardim saying their blessings with fervor, proud of their glorious past under Islam and their good relations with local Arabs. Or the Lubavitchers, steadfast in their mission to spread Chassidut and make sure you learned some Torah today. The modern orthodox balancing it all and their doorway into the professions; the proper and learned Lithuanians happy to answer any question on Jewish law – by answering with another question. The meditative Breslover Chassidim crying “father” in Yiddish in the middle of the night as they pray on the hillside; the Chassidim who migrated from Tiberias a generation ago – of a heritage part Russian and Old Yishuv Edut HaMizrach and their talent for teaching; the two Yemenite sects, one which favors kabala and mysticism, the other which cleaves to Maimonedean rationalism. You have the more open Sephardim and Ashkenazim – and blended – who flourish in the original Beis Yaakov or modern orthodox schools, the stricter Sephardim whose grandmothers wore purda with veiled faces. “Strict” and “lenient” are not ethnically delineated.

Emanuel is a place where you are easily exposed to the great variety that exists within the Charedi world. If you like languages, you could improve your Hebrew, Arabic, French, Russian, Yiddish, English, Judeo-Yemenite, Moroccan, Persian, Bucharian, Tunisian.

If we had hyphenated last names going back about three or four generations, revealing the many who have blended heritage, this whole Sephardic – Ashkenazi “divide” would fade away.

Small towns like Emanuel are actually a very good place to live and get to know different types of people.

THE BAIS YAAKOV SCHOOL SYSTEM

The Beis Yaakov system was founded in 1917 in Cracow, Poland by Sarah Shneirer, and is “selective” according to level of religious observance and expectations of refined personal behavior.

The first set of grades on the report card of the Beis Yaakov School in Emanuel concern personal character traits: prayer, attitude towards studies, attitude towards peers, respect of elders, respect of property, neatness and cleanliness, task completion, homework preparation, behavior during class, modesty. In each category is a line for teacher’s comments. This is a good chance for personal growth for a child.

Rebbetzen Henya Liebermensh, late wife of Rav Nosson Liebermensh, told me, “my father used to cover the bottom half of my report card and look at the comments on my character traits. If they were good, he would praise me and hand back the report card with a smile.”

We need schools that help the whole child and family grow. Beis Yaakov has high standards. You do not have to attend it if you do not want to.

The vice principal of the Beis Yaakov Emanuel is a Sephardic woman. There are of course excellent Sephardic women teachers in the Beis Yaakov, and there are excellent Sephardic men teachers in the Chassidic boys’ school that my son’s attend.

ATTORNEY MORDECHAI BASS’ EVALUATION OF THE BEIS YAAKOV EMANUEL CASE:

A brief synopsis, original report in Hebrew is attached.

Page 1

Invitation to investigate

“On January 28 2008 I was invited to evaluate the complaints of ethnic discrimination made against the Beis Yaakov Emanuel administration. I have thoroughly reviewed relevant material … and have met with administrators from the ministry of education, the chinuch atzmai (independent religious schools’ network, which Beis Yaakov is under), and I visited the two schools in question.”

Page 2

Evaluation of ethnicity

“The percentage of Ashkenazi families in the original school is 23%, and in the new (Chasidi) school, 73%.”

(Footnote at bottom: “Such figures are not totally accurate – firstly, the schools do not note the ethnicity of their students in the registration – and this is a good thing! Secondly – this figure was…partially based on the tenor of the family name, which can also be inaccurate.” )

Were any families refused admission to the Beis Yaakov Chasidi, Emanuel?

“All parents wanting to sign up their daughters to the new school, and were ready to accept upon themselves the school’s conditions, were accepted (lit. “not refused”). Since there was no rejection (of any applicants), where is the discrimination?”

Page 5

Description of Emanuel Community

“A varied population dwells in Emanuel – Chassidic, Lithuanian, Sephardic, some families have been Haredi for generations, some for one generation, some are newly religious for a few years. In larger towns, this variety is expressed in a variety of schools. Until this year there was only one (Haredi) school in the town.” ( My note )

Attorney Bass notes the tensions between the stricter, sheltered factions and the more open, lenient factions.

Page 6

Attorney Bass notes the founding of the Sephardic girls’ school in Emanuel, Beit Rachel and Leah, under the Mayan-Shas network, which at the time had only a small first grade. (My note )

He notes the various options that the parents explored – having different tracts in the same building, or opening a new school. In the end, a new school was founded.

Page 7

“The two schools are administrated separately, with two different principals.”

Physical separation between the two schools – fact or fiction?

“…photographers claimed that the cloth that was placed on the (pre-existing) fence prevented the girls from seeing each other. This is not true. Only part of the fence was covered. The yard surrounds the school from four directions, and the girls (from both schools) are able to see and play with each other. The (media) portrayal of two completely separate sections of the school yard…is not true.”

Page 8

“Were the students in the two schools divided according to ethnicity?

“Were the students in the two schools divided according to ethnicity? The plaintiffs claim yes (the top of this page exhibits the plaintiffs’ claim)….The original school has 107 Sephardic girls and 32 Ashkenazim. The percentage of Ashkenazim is thus 23%. The new (Chasidi) school has 58 Ashkenazi girls and 21 Sephardim. The percentage of Sephardim is thus 27%….I repeat that…anyone interested in registering their daughters in the new school and ready to accept the school’s way of life was not refused.

“I spoke to the plaintiffs and asked for one instance of parents who asked to register their daughter and was refused and they had no such case.

He goes on to discuss the legal technicalities of opening a new school, licensure and so forth.

Page 11

Again -physical separation between the two schools – fact or fiction?

Attorney Bass reiterates that accusations of physical barriers between the two schools were exaggerated and that indeed there was free access between the girls of both schools. He notes that the new school occupies (the third floor) rooms which were unused. (The third floor had housed the high school, and was vacated in September 2004 when the high school got its own building.)

(I laughed when I read paragraphs 4 and 5, which address the plaintiffs’ accusation that the times of school starting and recess were at different times. Attorney Bass found this to be untrue. Of course both schools begin at the same time – 8am. Of course the recesses are at the same time. Would it make sense to have recess at different times, with one school trying to study while the other half is making noise outside?)

Paragraph 6 on page 11 addresses the plaintiffs’ accusation that the girls in each school were forbidden contact with each other. () Attorney Bass notes that there was no such ordinance issued by the school.

Page 12

More on the culture of Emanuel – Sheltering children

Here, Attorney Bass sensitively notes the great variety that exists in the Haredi world, despite its outward uniform appearance in dress. He suggests that non-Haredim attempt to understand the mentality of sheltering from the outside world, and that the more strict and sheltered Haredim would understandably be wary of having their children have close contact with more lenient and worldly Haredim.

Page 13, paragraph 22

Was there ethnic discrimination in the Beis Yaakov Emanuel?

“The division was not ethnic, it was religious. I am convinced that there is no ethnic discrimination.”

Conclusion

“When ethnic discrimination actually occurs, we must combat it with all our might. I express my sorrow about complaints like these – thrown in the air – that increase hatred among Israel, and are totally baseless.” ()

Signed

Attorney Mordechai Bass

_________________________________-

Synopsis of letter from Rachel Guveri, head of education, town council of Emanuel, to Emanuel’s mayor Ezra Gerashi

December 2009

As my duty as head of education, I check on the schools and kindergartens. I have visited the Beis Yaakov School five times this year.

Concerning allegations of discrimination that have arisen:

1. There is no separation wall in the school.
2. There is one uniform dress code for the whole school.
3. There are no separate recesses.
4. The yard is shared; the girls (from both schools) play together.

The students are happy with the situation.

1. Registration – each family was given a choice at the beginning of the year which school to choose from – Chasidi or general.
2. Prayer – each girl prays according to her home custom. In the first grade they receive a prayer book from the Sephard tradition.
3. Girls learn the gamut of Jewish law, both Sephardi and Ashkenazi traditions, as a seamless whole.
4. Both schools learn the same curriculum.
5. The rules for both are the same.
6. There are teachers who teach in both schools.

I see that the girls are happy in these schools. (Additionally) the new Mayan-Shas (Beit Rachel and Leah) school has a nice atmosphere and the girls are happy.

There are schools in Emanuel for all to choose from for their individual needs.

The directive to unite the two Beis Yaakovs has opposition from parents in both schools.

I recommend allowing (the Beis Yaakovs) to remain two separate tracts – Chasidi and general, this is the first preference.

Rachel Guveri

And two more posts for context:

Aksile says:
June 15, 2010 at 10:18 am

RG, may I ask for the sources from where you take your information?
Thanks

RG says:
June 15, 2010 at 1:17 pm

I live in Emanuel

To Lawman-30% of the girls attending Beis Yaakov Chasidi in Emanuel are Sephardic. This Chasidi school was founded as a stricter alternative to the original Beis Yaakov.

It is not a Sephardi/Ashkenazi divide, it is phiosophical.

Aksile – I have original court documents, including the Mordechai Bass report. See my blogspot:

http://beisyaakovemanuel.blogspot.com/

So far only the Bass report is posted.

Write to me via my blogspot page and I will email you the documents that I have. They are not all yet posted on the webpage.

[White Israelite]

Why are they so racist towards Sephardic? They are Jews just like the Ashkenazi. I get tired of people acting like the Sephardic are somehow different or related to Arabs.

[muman613]

Ariel,

If you think it is Lashon Hora, why do you post it here? You know what they say about Lashon Hara? It kills at least three people, the one who spoke it, the ones who heard it, and the one it is spoken about...

When you repeat the LH, it has the effect like dominoes, spreading more and more, killing all who hear it, and all who speak it...

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/speech.htm

The person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it.  It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three:  the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told.

http://www.dafyomi.co.il/makos/halachah/ma-hl-023.htm

2. Rambam (3): Lashon ha'Ra kills three people - the speaker, the one who accepts it, and the subject. The one who accepts it is (punished) more than the one who told it.
3. Rambam (6): One may not live in the vicinity of Ba'alei Lashon ha'Ra, and all the more so one may not sit with them and hear their words.
4. Sha'arei Teshuvah (3:213): It says "Leshon Sheker Yisna Dakav." A humble person of broken spirit hates Sheker, and he does not agree to hear it. He desires the honor of people, and not their shame. "Lo Sisa Shema Shav" forbids believing in the heart that the tale is true and to despise the subject.
5. Sha'arei Teshuvah (225): We are commanded from the Torah not to accept Lashon ha'Ra.

PS: Ariel, I don't blame you for posting it... But to say it is Lashon Hara in the post makes me not want to read it...

[muman613]

I also have no problem with Jews who are different from me. I guess this is because I am a Baal Teshuva and everyone who is Jewish is a beautiful neshama to me. I mostly know Jews from my local shul and from the Chabads in the area. The Levi in my minyan is an Egyptian Sephardic Jew and I have never had anything bad to say about my friend. I also respect many Sephardic Rabbis..

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

What I posted is not Lashon hora.  The original article is Lashon hora, created to kill Ashkenazi/Sepharic relationships.  The issue with the area's problem is between how two schools of Judaism pray, it is not because Jews of European descent have racist problems with Jews of middle eastern descent.  The article does not make this clear and leads people to think there is a racist problem where there is none.  My intent is to correct the evil which has been spoken and clear the good names of these Jews who simply want their own interpretation of Judaism to be protected.

Ariel,

If you think it is Lashon Hora, why do you post it here? You know what they say about Lashon Hara? It kills at least three people, the one who spoke it, the ones who heard it, and the one it is spoken about...

When you repeat the LH, it has the effect like dominoes, spreading more and more, killing all who hear it, and all who speak it...

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/speech.htm

The person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it.  It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three:  the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told.

http://www.dafyomi.co.il/makos/halachah/ma-hl-023.htm

2. Rambam (3): Lashon ha'Ra kills three people - the speaker, the one who accepts it, and the subject. The one who accepts it is (punished) more than the one who told it.
3. Rambam (6): One may not live in the vicinity of Ba'alei Lashon ha'Ra, and all the more so one may not sit with them and hear their words.
4. Sha'arei Teshuvah (3:213): It says "Leshon Sheker Yisna Dakav." A humble person of broken spirit hates Sheker, and he does not agree to hear it. He desires the honor of people, and not their shame. "Lo Sisa Shema Shav" forbids believing in the heart that the tale is true and to despise the subject.
5. Sha'arei Teshuvah (225): We are commanded from the Torah not to accept Lashon ha'Ra.

PS: Ariel, I don't blame you for posting it... But to say it is Lashon Hara in the post makes me not want to read it...

[muman613]

What I posted is not Lashon hora.  The original article is Lashon hora, created to kill Ashkenazi/Sepharic relationships.  The issue with the area's problem is between how two schools of Judaism pray, it is not because Jews of European descent have racist problems with Jews of middle eastern descent.  The article does not make this clear and leads people to think there is a racist problem where there is none.  My intent is to correct the evil which has been spoken and clear the good names of these Jews who simply want their own interpretation of Judaism to be protected.

Ariel,

If you think it is Lashon Hora, why do you post it here? You know what they say about Lashon Hara? It kills at least three people, the one who spoke it, the ones who heard it, and the one it is spoken about...

When you repeat the LH, it has the effect like dominoes, spreading more and more, killing all who hear it, and all who speak it...

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/speech.htm

The person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it.  It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three:  the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told.

http://www.dafyomi.co.il/makos/halachah/ma-hl-023.htm

2. Rambam (3): Lashon ha'Ra kills three people - the speaker, the one who accepts it, and the subject. The one who accepts it is (punished) more than the one who told it.
3. Rambam (6): One may not live in the vicinity of Ba'alei Lashon ha'Ra, and all the more so one may not sit with them and hear their words.
4. Sha'arei Teshuvah (3:213): It says "Leshon Sheker Yisna Dakav." A humble person of broken spirit hates Sheker, and he does not agree to hear it. He desires the honor of people, and not their shame. "Lo Sisa Shema Shav" forbids believing in the heart that the tale is true and to despise the subject.
5. Sha'arei Teshuvah (225): We are commanded from the Torah not to accept Lashon ha'Ra.

PS: Ariel, I don't blame you for posting it... But to say it is Lashon Hara in the post makes me not want to read it...

Oh, now I get it..

Yes, the Sephardim have a different Davening Nusach than the Ashkenaz. They have different Siddurs/Prayer Books and the order of the prayers is somewhat different. In my minyan the Sephardim daven from their siddur, the Mizrachi daven from their siddur, the Chabad daven from their siddur, and the Chazzan and myself daven to the Artscroll Ashkenazi siddur...

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/Article.aspx?id=178028

It is a bit of a read.  It shows more of both sides of the issue.  I am of the tendency to believe there is truth being told on both sides, and the ultimate truth lies in the middle.  I am interested in watching this little part of the world, mostly in hearing from parents.
---
While I see myself more comfortable outside of a strict European Jew way of life and school of learning, I respect and understand the need for parents to raise their children as they see fit and the deep desire to keep their way of life, their legacy, alive. 

If I was a parent and I was told I had to send my kids to a school that taught the Reform and Reconstructionalist ideas of Judaism I would be militantly against it. -- How many of us would feel the same way?

I am not biased against Ashkenazi culture, but I always seem to find myself drawn more to Sephardic customs, food, history, and I like women of the Sephardic look more naturally.  God willing, when I make Aliyah I hope to find the wife who is right for me, and I have the tendency to think she will be a Sephardic girl, although I try not to commit myself to prerequisites before I am even there.  But I would hate to make any Jew, even [or especially] a curmudgeonly Ashkenazic Haredi who might never want to speak a word to me, bow down to how I think Judaism should be, and force them to give up their culture.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138121

More.

[muman613]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138121

More.

I was just reading A7... I saw this story...

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138120

Myriads Expected at Hareidi Protest
 
by Hillel Fendel

Tens of thousands of policemen are on hand in Jerusalem to counter what could be twice that amount of hareidi-religious protestors in what has been called the “mother of all protests.” The hareidi-religious are expected to accompany 68 parents from Emanuel to jail in a mass protest against irreligious coercion.

The protest is called for 1:30 PM at Yirmiyahu St. near the large hareidi neighborhoods, and is scheduled to last about four It is feared that it will begin even earlier in other areas of the city, however. Lending the protest an air of urgency, leading Torah giants such as Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyahshiv, age 100, and Rabbi Chaim Kanievsky of Bnei Brak have said they will take part. In addition, the rabbis have taken the unusual step of calling on all yeshiva and kollel students to take a break from their Torah studies and join the protest.

The issue is the Supreme Court ruling that forces Hassidic parents in the Shomron town of Emanuel to send their daughters to a school that they believe does not meet their religious standards. The Court, however, adjudicated the issue based on ethnic lines, accepting the position of the plaintiffs who claimed that the current school discriminates against Sephardic families.

The defendants say in their defense that among their number, roughly a quarter are Sephardic.

The 68 parents who refuse to send their daughters to the designated school are to be taken to jail today – an unprecedented move in itself. They have said that they will gladly go to jail rather than compromise their religious principles. In accordance with a ruling by their rabbi, the Slonimer Rebbe, they will wear festive Sabbath clothes and will be escorted to jail in song and dance by the myriads of protestors.

In court, the parents cried out the Shma Yisrael prayer, and sang “Zion, will you not care for your prisoners?” and “Make your plans, but they will not come to fruition, for ‘Emanu-e-l’ [G-d is with us].’”

It appears that a statement by the one religious Supreme Court justice – Edmond Levy, the only judge to rule against the removal of government stipends to Kollel students this week – is what set the religious world on fire. Regarding the declared refusal of the parents to follow the Court’s ruling and to follow their rabbis instead, Levy said, “It cannot be that rabbis’ rulings will take precedence over the Supreme Court.” Today’s mass protest is essentially saying, “Oh yes they can!”

Based on recent hareidi protests, violence is expected, though rabbis and other leaders have called on the public to show restraint. The police, for their part, have said that they will act to quickly quell any disturbances - an ominous threat in the eyes of the protestors.

The hareidi public has felt itself under the gun recently regarding the desecration of graves in Jaffa, the removal of bones in Ashkelon, the removal of the Kollel stipends, unwanted autopsies in Jerusalem, anti-hareidi statements made by public leaders, and more.

The original court suit was initiated by a veteran resident of the city, who had various claims against the relatively newly arrived Slonim Hassidic community – including what he felt was ethnic discrimination, despite the presence of Sephardic families in the Hassidic school. Notably, teaders of the hareidi-Sephardic Shas party have come out against the Court ruling, though they did not call on their supporters to join the protest.

[habiru]

First off, Im a Kahanist but haredim and israeli arabs are both great dangers to the survival of israel.
they both hate the state, suck its coffers dry, dont serve in the army and have a law unto themselves.

[Ben m]

this is the ugly face of the haredi population in israel.

[habiru]

yeah but theres been a lot of bu== kissing to the haredim recently which has to stop.
gush katif happened because of them. they dont give a hoot about anything which doesnt directly relate to them.

i dont understand why any sefardi would want to be part of this non productive parasitic community. all sephardim should be convinced to join the national religious sector.

[wonga66]

Unless the Haredi mass storms the Knesset, the High Court, a police station, the jail, duffs over some Yassamniks, or a few of them are martyred by having their heads split open by Druze Yassamnik batons and become kedoshim, the whole demo achieves nothing.



As Rav Kahane said: "a peaceful demonstration is worthless!", "the way to advance is through confrontation!" and above all "the Haredim are irrelevant!"

Sharon actually laughed at the peaceful knitted-kipot sit-ins against the 2005 Gaza Deportation: "There will be no milchemet achim - because we are not achim!" (BZK 2000)

[TheCoon]

What is the rabbinical stance on an issue like this? I'm quite sure sages in the past have encouraged Jewish subgroups like ashkenazim, sephardim, mizrachim, etc to keep their own religious traditions. This is at the core of the arguement by the haredim that their children shouldn't be forced to learn alongside sephardim for fear they will lose their ashkenazic religious traditions. While I can sympathize with this, it seems evident there is some racism or prejudice involved that these haredim feel towards non-ashkenazi Jews. To me, a Jew is a Jew is a Jew regardless of their ethnic traditions, no?

[wonga66]

If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!

[MassuhDGoodName]

Please define the following terms:

Chilloni

Yamassnik

Yassamnik!

[muman613]

Please define the following terms:

Chilloni

Yamassnik

Yassamnik!

Chiloni = Secular/Non-Religious

I don't know the meaning of the others..

[New Yorker]

If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!

Sadly you forgot arrogant.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Yamassnik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Border_Police#YAMAS

Yassamnik!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasam

[muman613]

If only these Haredi masses, tough, healthy, motivated, overfed, underemployed and spoilt, can be turned by the right Messianic-type leader towards Kahanism (ie true Torah), then it's the Endgame!!

Sadly you forgot arrogant.

Why do you call them arrogant? What have they done which is arrogant. in your opinion?

Sometimes I am amazed at the amount of Lashon Hara which is expressed against Jews who are probrobly more observant than any of us here are... It really makes me wonder about this group..

[TheCoon]

I don't see any lashon hara. There's no gossip going on.

It really depends on how you view the Haredim. It would seem even some Kahanist Jews fear the Haredim's influence and practices. To these Jews, speaking out against them would not be lashon hara.

What do some leading rabbis say about the Haredim in Israel?

[muman613]

I don't see any lashon hara. There's no gossip going on.

It really depends on how you view the Haredim. It would seem even some Kahanist Jews fear the Haredim's influence and practices. To these Jews, speaking out against them would not be lashon hara.

What do some leading rabbis say about the Haredim in Israel?

Lashon Hara is not gossip my friend thunderbolt... It has been discussed here many times...

When one Jew says something derogotory about another Jew, especially if it is true, then it is considered Lashon Hara [Evil Speech]. There are numerous commandments related with this... The primary one reads "Do not be a tale-bearer against your people..."...

http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/intrtrue.html

One more time for good mazel..

http://www.torah.org/learning/halashon/intrcomm.html
The Chafetz Chaim lists 31 mitzvot which may be violated when a person speaks or listens to Lashon Hara. This is a staggering number. Even though one does not generally violate them all in one shot, it is important to remember how carelessness can lead one into deeper trouble.

The central prohibition against unethical speech is Leviticus 19:16 - "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha" -- do not go about as a talebearer among your people. [FYI: Rashi's commentary on this verse is a "classic." He discusses the origins of the word rachil (a roving merchant), and a few divergent ideas about the Hebrew language.]

This verse in Leviticus applies equally to Rechilut and Lashon Hara (abbr.: L"H). The Chafetz Chaim gives their exact definitions later on, but for clarity we should mention them here:

    * Lashon Hara - any derogatory or damaging (physically, financially, socially, or stress-inducing) communication.
    * Rechilut - any communication that generates animosity between people.

Rechilut is often the repeating of Lashon Hara. For example, Reuven tells Shimon that Levi is ugly (Reuven spoke L"H), and then Shimon tells Levi what Reuven said about him. Shimon probably made Levi angry with Reuven, which is Rechilut.

Although Rechilut seems more obviously derived from the verse, both as a cognate (rachil/rechilut) and a concept (talebearer), the Torah is prohibiting any type of harmful or negative speech in this commandment.

There are several other commandments that directly address "gossip":

    * Deut. 24:8 - "Take heed concerning the plague of leprosy" because it is a punishment of Lashon Hara.
    * Deut. 24:9 - "Remember what the L-rd your G-d did unto Miriam by the way as you came forth out of Egypt." Specifically, she spoke against her brother Moses.
    * Lev. 25:17 - "You shall not wrong one another" which the Talmud (Bava Metzia 58b) explains that this means saying anything that will insult or anger someone.
    * Deut. 19:15 - "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity or for any sin" because, unlike in a court for monetary matters, the testimony of a solitary witness is not binding, so that his testimony damages the defendant's reputation without any beneficial result.

Several other commandments are more general, yet in certain circumstances apply when Lashon Hara or Rechilut is spoken:

    * Ex. 23:1 - "You shall not utter a false report." Acceptance of a false report also follows from this.
    * Lev. 19:14 - "Before the blind do not place a stumbling block." This applies to both the speaker and the listener since they are helping each other violate the commandments.
    * Lev. 19:12 - "You shall not hate your brother in your heart," referring to contradictory behavior such as acting friendly but then speaking negatively about him behind his back.
    * Lev. 19:18 - "You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the children of your people," such as speaking against someone in anger and for something that was done against the speaker.
    * Lev. 19:17 - "You shall rebuke your neighbor and you shall not bear sin because of him." This verse contains two mitzvot: (1) stop someone from speaking Lashon Hara (among other interpretations), and (2) don't embarrass him in the process. (Note: rebuke is not a simple topic, especially because the one being scolded may not always listen. This is covered in some detail in the second section of the book, Hilchot Rechilut.)
    * Lev. 19:18 - "Love your neighbor as yourself."
    * Num. 17:5 - "You shall not act similar to Korach and his company" who sustained a dispute.
    * Deut. 10:20 - "To Him [and (by implication) his wise ones] shall you cleave."
    * Ex. 23:2 - "You shall not follow a multitude to do evil." The above two commandments refer to keeping good company, which includes those who will refrain from improper subjects in their discussions.

If you've been counting, you'll realize that there are still a good number of commandments that we haven't mentioned yet. To see the complete list, please see the Sefer Chafetz Chaim or its English adaptation, Guard Your Tongue, by Rabbi Z. Pliskin.

It is certainly good to be aware of the various mitzvot. However, the halachot discussed in the Chafetz Chaim are more specific, basically revolving around "Lo telech rachil b'ameicha," "B'tzedek tishpot et amiteicha," and "hocheiach tochiach et amiteicha." The Chafetz Chaim delineates different situations and conditions, and identifies when the speech is forbidden, permissible, and even desirable.