Haredi idealism: keep Ashkenaz & Sefard education separate

[muman613]

you still didn't quoted me.

.  You must really want to be like me ben.   You fear me, yet you want to be me.  Sounds about right.

is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.

Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...

i love my CURRENT world view thank you.

You love it because you hate yourself.  It's not healthy, ben.

i am not hating myself i hate my enemies and people with double standards like muman for example.

Ben, you don't know what you hate. But you certainly do hate a lot...

I did nothing against you except say that you are not a friend, and you don't act like a Jew, and I will not change that till you show me otherwise.

[Ben m]

you still didn't quoted me.

.  You must really want to be like me ben.   You fear me, yet you want to be me.  Sounds about right.

is this a joke? who wants to be like YOU.definetly not ME.

Sometimes it seems like you ben are the joke here... I occasionally want to give you the benefit of the doubt so I think you are just joking but then I realize that you are being serious and then I worry about you... I agree with KWRBT that you really need to do some self-evaluation and find out what is so wrong about your world view... I can't help you...

i love my CURRENT world view thank you.

You love it because you hate yourself.  It's not healthy, ben.

i am not hating myself i hate my enemies and people with double standards like muman for example.

Ben, you don't know what you hate. But you certainly do hate a lot...

I did nothing against you except say that you are not a friend, and you don't act like a Jew, and I will not change that till you show me otherwise.

you said that i am nazi and a self hating jew.oh and you love the negroes too much.

[habiru]

you still didn't quoted me.i said ISRAELI HAREDIM are parasites.and nobody in in israel denies that.

i am a kahanist and i could not agree with you more.
i am not even sure which ones are a bigger threat; the israeli arabs or the haredim.
the haredim are a second fifth column in the heart of israel. they contribute nothing but interethnic hatred and parasitical behavior. many of them are also violent hooligans.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

you still didn't quoted me.i said ISRAELI HAREDIM are parasites.and nobody in in israel denies that.

i am a kahanist and i could not agree with you more.
i am not even sure which ones are a bigger threat; the israeli arabs or the haredim.
the haredim are a second fifth column in the heart of israel. they contribute nothing but interethnic hatred and parasitical behavior. many of them are also violent hooligans.

You also speak like Hitler.   Save us this dishonest hyperbole. 

Oh and btw, how do you define "many?"    Give me a break with this garbage.

[MassuhDGoodName]

habiru:  [regarding Haredim]  - "many of them are also violent hooligans "

That's good !

We can use all we can get!

That way they can be turned loose on Leftist drek and earn their "free lunch".

Would that all the rest of the Jews were willing and able to behave like violent hooligans, and there would be no more "A-rab problem".

[FreedomFighter08]

I don't know who this Ben M is but I agree that Haredi are parasites. The Israeli Orthodox community and the Secular community serves in the military FOR them, pays taxes FOR them, and work FOR them. Yet they deem Secular Jews as "not real Jews" and make people cover up in very hot 95 degree weather when they enter their "neighborhoods" in Israel. Yet some Haredi are allowed to dodge draft!

I say that everybody in Israel has to serve in the military and work and pay taxes. You can't act like some people here in the US and live off of welfare your whole life.

Secular Jews are the reason why Israel exists.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I don't know who this Ben M is but I agree that Haredi are parasites.

So you agree with the self-professed nazi and adopt his Hitler-like rhetoric.   How precious.

The Israeli Orthodox community and the Secular community serves in the military FOR them,

  For them ?  Or for everyone?   I didn't know that the army only existed because of protecting haredim.   Otherwise we wouldn't need an army?  Gee, that's quite the hiddush you thought up!   You can't possibly be serious.

pays taxes FOR them, and work FOR them.

I never knew that so many people devoted their lives to haredim.  Based on comments that are made by people like you, that call the haredim horrible names, one would never think such a thing.  Yet you seem to say that secular and "orthodox" (why doesn't that include haredim?) live their daily existence for the sake of sustaining haredim and derive life purpose out of that.  Otherwise if not for the existence of haredim, these people apparently would lose any need to pay taxes (and suddenly they would think it was ok to steal from the govt and not pay their taxes?), and quit their jobs.   You are convincing me more and more of just how important haredim are in Israel.   Otherwise what will be life's purpose and what will happen to the economy if everyone quits work because haredim no longer exist to "WORK FOR" ?

The govt is still going to charge taxes even if their miniscule "welfare" (if you can call it that) payments to kollel fathers cease.  (By the way, you ever consider how little they get from the govt and how little they live off of?)   The govt will find other things to put the people's money toward and will not "stop charging" taxes. LOL

Yet they deem Secular Jews as "not real Jews"

Silly claim made only out of ignorance.   Nobody doubts that secular Jews are Jews.  Certainly secular Jews are not practicing Judaism and to actually live practically as a Jew requires carrying out Judaism.   So in that sense, while inherently Jewish by birth, the secular Jews do not embrace or express Jewish identity fully in an authentic way, and thus secular Jews are not living as Jews.  And this view is shared across the board by religious Jews ("Orthodox" included, whatever you refer to with that). No haredim I know consider secular Jews to be non-Jews.  Just mistaken Jews.

  and make people cover up in very hot 95 degree weather when they enter their "neighborhoods" in Israel. 

LOL, yes and there have been so many incidents of heat stroke and suffucation by the demands that tramp-looking teenage girls from america put on past-the-knee length skirts to walk through certain neighborhoods in Meah Shearim.    There are things called reasonable demands and unreasonable demands.   No one is demanding you put on fur coats in the summer or burkas.   Just a basic decency and basic expression of modesty because the people in those neighborhoods you refer to do not want to see your thighs or your cleavage. 

Why can't you accept that they don't want slutty american college girls strutting around their neighborhoods in sleazy outfits and just respect that rather than complain about the heat as if no one in the world wears anything other than shorts in the summer.    I have yet to see a businessman, in anything I've been involved with, wear shorts to work because it's hot out but I'm waiting for that day.

  Yet some Haredi are allowed to dodge draft! 

When they utilize LEGAL permissions to not serve, this is not called dodging.   However, a great many far-leftists SECULAR JEWS commit far worse than this because their dodging is actually dodging and not based in any legal exception.  And horror of horrors, "some leftist secular Jews are allowed to dodge the draft!"   If you want to change the law, speak about that, but you simply preach simple-minded hate-rhetoric.

I say that everybody in Israel has to serve in the military and work and pay taxes.

Good for you.  Even Arabs?   Or you forgot about them because you were too obsessed with those pesky "black-hats?"

Secular Jews are the reason why Israel exists.

So are religious Jews.   How dare you exclude them and their contributions?   You spit on the grave of the Jewish underground fighters (which in case you didn't know had many religious members) and many religious Jews who settled the Land when no one else would.    The religious settlement is what gave the legs to zionist thought and made a large-scale aliyah and national political movement even possible.    You are ignorant of history.   Zionism did not happen in a vacuum.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Sounds like you've never heard Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or Chaim speak the praises of the great Jewish leader, the Shomer Shabbath ORTHODOX commander of the Irgun, David Raziel ZT"L HY"D, one of the greatest men in modern Jewish history.   If he wasn't religious, I don't know who was.   

[muman613]

Anyone who supports what Ben M said is treading on some very thin ice... That guy was a Nazi and supporting his sick view of the Haredim is very unjewish to me... I see a lot of what can be considered Sinat Chinam on this forum and it is very disturbing.

I would ask that before making such abusive comments that the poster THINK before he/she posts... By violating the command of Ahavat Yisroel against religious Jews cannot help our cause..

[habiru]

Sounds like you've never heard Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or Chaim speak the praises of the great Jewish leader, the Shomer Shabbath ORTHODOX commander of the Irgun, David Raziel ZT"L HY"D, one of the greatest men in modern Jewish history.   If he wasn't religious, I don't know who was.   

What the heck are you talking about?
I have nothing but the utmost respect for the dati leumi-religious zionist. but the haredim are not religious zionists, they are worthless parasites. Israel cannot survive for long if they continue their parasitical behavior.

I said before that they are violent and it's true that violence can be a good thing but only if its directed against evil people but these haredim burn garbage dumpsters and throw rocks at soldiers and police who protect them. They dont do these things against arabs only against zionists, which makes them no better than the arabs.

I myself consider myself a religous zionist but i am far, very far from haredi. I am sick and tired of seeing religous zionists in israel kissing up to haredim. haredim are a selfish bunch who care nothing for eretz yisrael. they only care about how much money they can suck out of the government for their yeshivas.

I remember what high hopes i had when marzel ran and the charedim pretended to support him but when it came down to it, they all voted for the evil agudat israel party which is direrctly responsible for the gush katif disaster among other terrible things.

and look what's going on today in emanuel?

R kahane was all about complete unity between sephardim and ashkenazim but these haredim hate sephardim and treat them like drek.

this is very unlike the kahanists and the religous ziionists who dont make such distinctions. yemenites, morrocans, russians, iraqis, marry each other freely. inter-ethnic marriages are the norm rather than the exception among every other sector of the israeli population except among the damned haredim.

[habiru]

I need only to mention the case of Roi Klein (Ashkenazi) who was a religious settler from eli and was killed in the second lebanon war when he threw himself on a grenade to save his unit. His friend Eliraz Peretz (Morrocan) , also from Eli became a stepfather to Klein's children and treated them like his own until he himself was killed in Gaza not long ago.

Do we ever see such ahavat chinam among the parasite haredim?

what do they contribute to the country except for sinat hinam? they hate everyone who is not like them. Hassidim hate litvaks, litvaks hate hasidim. different hassidic groups hate each other.
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Sounds like you've never heard Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or Chaim speak the praises of the great Jewish leader, the Shomer Shabbath ORTHODOX commander of the Irgun, David Raziel ZT"L HY"D, one of the greatest men in modern Jewish history.   If he wasn't religious, I don't know who was.   

What the heck are you talking about?

Wasn't my comment directed at "Jewish American Patriot" ?   In any case...

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the dati leumi-religious zionist.  

 

In what way was Raziel this?  He was simply an Orthodox Jew who fought.   He was not leader of Mizrahi party or mizrahi faction of zionism.   He was a revisionist zionist who was an Orthodox Jew.  You are trying to reimage him.

but the haredim are not religious zionists, they are worthless parasites.  

And you are a nazi.

I said before that they are violent and it's true that violence can be a good thing but only if its directed against evil people but these haredim burn garbage dumpsters and throw rocks at soldiers and police who protect them. They dont do these things against arabs only against zionists, which makes them no better than the arabs.  

 

Why do you label all haredim with this nonsense?   The Toldos Aharon sect and some lunatics there represent all haredim?   The groups burning things in Meah shearim are NOT mainstream.   That you extend their insanity to include all "haredim" demonstrates your blind hatred.   You are afraid of the black-hatted man, so you villify him and make him the scapegoat.   And in the path of Hitler, you call this "type" of Jew you don't like, a parasite.

 I myself consider myself a religous zionist but i am far, very far from haredi.  

 Well good for you, want a medal?  

I am sick and tired of seeing religous zionists in israel kissing up to haredim. haredim are a selfish bunch who care nothing for eretz yisrael. they only care about how much money they can suck out of the government for their yeshivas.  

Yeah?  Well I am sick and tired of people like you making generalizations about thousands of people which are not true just because you oppose their hashkafa and their political ideology and the actions of a few of them in one particular location.

As much as I disagree with the haredi "yeshivish" worldview, the scions of the haredi yeshivoth, such as Mir, Hevron, Brisk, etc, are not involved with the daily violent protest and rioting stupidity and that is simply plain fact.  This huge immanuel protest was an exception, and that was notably nonviolent, and it was about the issue of the courts.    The ones burning garbage cans are bored losers.

and look what's going on today in emanuel?

R kahane was all about complete unity between sephardim and ashkenazim but these haredim hate sephardim and treat them like drek.  

Yeah, there's a problem in their society, and Dati Leumi has its own problems in its own society.   Who do you think you are labelling thousands of Jews as parasites and untermenshen?

this is very unlike the kahanists and the religous ziionists who dont make such distinctions. yemenites, morrocans, russians, iraqis, marry each other freely.

Yes, this is a great strength of the national religious sector.

inter-ethnic marriages are the norm rather than the exception among every other sector of the israeli population except among the damned haredim.

Yes so I bet you want to throw those "damned haredim" into the oven.  That'll fix their ways, you creep.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I need only to mention the case of Roi Klein (Ashkenazi) who was a religious settler from eli and was killed in the second lebanon war when he threw himself on a grenade to save his unit. His friend Eliraz Peretz (Morrocan) , also from Eli became a stepfather to Klein's children and treated them like his own until he himself was killed in Gaza not long ago.   

Yes, a great story.

Then you go lunatic:

Do we ever see such ahavat chinam among the parasite haredim? 

I'm sure there are many stories within their communities.  And I'm sure no secular paper is going to report on them either.   But do you actually KNOW any haredim personally?   Maybe you should try to get to know some and you'll see they are just sincere people with mistaken views for the most part.  You paint them as completely evil.  YOU are doing something evil here.   

what do they contribute to the country except for sinat hinam? they hate everyone who is not like them. Hassidim hate litvaks, litvaks hate hasidim. different hassidic groups hate each other.
 

If you want to slander whole communities, let's talk about the endless LOVE that the dati leumi have even for the secular establishment as they beat them with clubs and throw them out of their homes.   Religious zionists have their own problems too; they are not perfect.   They are not the 'aryan race' within Judaism.  There is no such thing.

Get off your high horse and cut the nazi rhetoric.   You are speaking like an affirmative action animal.

[habiru]

Sounds like you've never heard Rabbi Kahane ZT"L or Chaim speak the praises of the great Jewish leader, the Shomer Shabbath ORTHODOX commander of the Irgun, David Raziel ZT"L HY"D, one of the greatest men in modern Jewish history.   If he wasn't religious, I don't know who was.   

What the heck are you talking about?

Wasn't my comment directed at "Jewish American Patriot" ?   In any case...

I have nothing but the utmost respect for the dati leumi-religious zionist.  

 

In what way was Raziel this?  He was simply an Orthodox Jew who fought.   He was not leader of Mizrahi party or mizrahi faction of zionism.   He was a revisionist zionist who was an Orthodox Jew.  You are trying to reimage him.

He was not Haredi in any way either. If I am not mistaken, he learned in Mercaz harav,which was Rav Kook's yeshiva.

but the haredim are not religious zionists, they are worthless parasites.  

And you are a nazi.


I laugh when I hear this because the word 'nazi' has been so misused and abused since the invention the word that it's virtually meaningless.

I said before that they are violent and it's true that violence can be a good thing but only if its directed against evil people but these haredim burn garbage dumpsters and throw rocks at soldiers and police who protect them. They dont do these things against arabs only against zionists, which makes them no better than the arabs.  

 

Why do you label all haredim with this nonsense?   The Toldos Aharon sect and some lunatics there represent all haredim?   The groups burning things in Meah shearim are NOT mainstream.   That you extend their insanity to include all "haredim" demonstrates your blind hatred.   You are afraid of the black-hatted man, so you villify him and make him the scapegoat.   And in the path of Hitler, you call this "type" of Jew you don't like, a parasite.

Its not just toldos aharon, its alot more than that. the extreme haredi factions are growing by leaps and bounds; they have many kids and all these kids are raised on a diet of hating the state and all the zionists including and especially the religious zionists whom they call "mizruchuniks" (sic).

 I myself consider myself a religous zionist but i am far, very far from haredi.  

 Well good for you, want a medal?  

I am sick and tired of seeing religous zionists in israel kissing up to haredim. haredim are a selfish bunch who care nothing for eretz yisrael. they only care about how much money they can suck out of the government for their yeshivas.  

Yeah?  Well I am sick and tired of people like you making generalizations about thousands of people which are not true just because you oppose their hashkafa and their political ideology and the actions of a few of them in one particular location.

As much as I disagree with the haredi "yeshivish" worldview, the scions of the haredi yeshivoth, such as Mir, Hevron, Brisk, etc, are not involved with the daily violent protest and rioting stupidity and that is simply plain fact.  This huge immanuel protest was an exception, and that was notably nonviolent, and it was about the issue of the courts.    The ones burning garbage cans are bored losers.

yes, i agree the lithuanians usually shy away from violence, although if you follow what went on in ponovezh yeshiva, you will see that that's not true. they even use violence against each other (there was even a pipe bomb planted at the door of one of the rival roshei yehsiva). Plus there was never a condemnation by the litvak yeshiva world against all the violence in Jerusalem and Jaffa and Ashkeklon. So this is a tacit support for mindless haredi violence.

and look what's going on today in emanuel?

R kahane was all about complete unity between sephardim and ashkenazim but these haredim hate sephardim and treat them like drek.  

Yeah, there's a problem in their society, and Dati Leumi has its own problems in its own society.   Who do you think you are labelling thousands of Jews as parasites and untermenshen?

why are you putting words in my mouth?
what is your obession with Nazis and Nazi terminology?

this is very unlike the kahanists and the religous ziionists who dont make such distinctions. yemenites, morrocans, russians, iraqis, marry each other freely.

Yes, this is a great strength of the national religious sector.

inter-ethnic marriages are the norm rather than the exception among every other sector of the israeli population except among the damned haredim.

Yes so I bet you want to throw those "damned haredim" into the oven.  That'll fix their ways, you creep.

again with your Nazi terminology. You have issues, my friend.

[habiru]

Emanuel Haredim being released from prison, giving the V sign, just like Hamasniks.
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=17928&cat_id=2

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Emanuel Haredim being released from prison, giving the V sign, just like Hamasniks.
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=17928&cat_id=2

Talking about Nazi terminology.

[muman613]

I think you have issues with Haredim. Having such hatred in your heart is a very bad sign. Instead of hating them you should be able to find good in what they do. I have seen good and bad in everyone. You should look for the good in these Jews, regardless of whether you respect their beliefs.

[habiru]

I think you have issues with Haredim. Having such hatred in your heart is a very bad sign. Instead of hating them you should be able to find good in what they do. I have seen good and bad in everyone. You should look for the good in these Jews, regardless of whether you respect their beliefs.

Did you see the massive demo that they organanized last week?
what a chillul hashem that was. where the hell were these putzes when it came to fighting for eretz yisrael?
how come they have all kinds of excuses not to come out and protest then?

plus the protest added more media fuel to the anti israel fires burning all over the world. now every non-jewish person can point to israel and say : "see , the Israelis are racist even against their own people". another indication of how selfish and self absorbed charadim are. they dont give a crap about anything that doesnt directly tie to them.

they claim to care about ancient jewish bones but none of them made a peep when jewish bones were uprooted from gush katif.

if this isnt utmost hypocricy, i dont know what is?

there is so much potential in the charedi community. they all look fat and overfed. they could potentially be the best infantry men in the army but unstead they choose to do nothing and live off other israelis hard earned tax money. If that isn't parasitical behavior, i dont know what is.

what makes them any different than any affirmative action animal?

[habiru]

Emanuel Haredim being released from prison, giving the V sign, just like Hamasniks.
http://www.bhol.co.il/news_read.asp?id=17928&cat_id=2

Talking about Nazi terminology.

Well they even call themselves "shahidim".

what a messed up bunch...

[muman613]

They are standing up for the principle that laws come from Hashem and not the supreme court. I agree with them that they should not be required to send their children to schools with a lower standard of religious observation...

[habiru]

They are standing up for the principle that laws come from Hashem and not the supreme court. I agree with them that they should not be required to send their children to schools with a lower standard of religious observation...

It was about racism against sephardim. There was a wall seperating the ashkenazi from the sephardi girls. Why is that something to be admired. No true Kahanist can support this kind of old style racism. We in Israel are trying to break down the walls between groups as much as possible. I dont even think there should be any distinction between sephardim and ashkenazim. There should be one chief rabbi (who should be a zionist not a Elyahsiv puppet) of both the State and the army.

There should be one rite called Minhag Eretz Yisrael and everyone who lives in EY should follow that.  The rest is history, it is important, it is fascinating but it belongs in a museum.

[muman613]

They are standing up for the principle that laws come from Hashem and not the supreme court. I agree with them that they should not be required to send their children to schools with a lower standard of religious observation...

It was about racism against sephardim. There was a wall seperating the ashkenazi from the sephardi girls. Why is that something to be admired. No true Kahanist can support this kind of old style racism. We in Israel are trying to break down the walls between groups as much as possible. I dont even think there should be any distinction between sephardim and ashkenazim. There should be one chief rabbi (who should be a zionist not a Elyahsiv puppet) of both the State and the army.

There should be one rite called Minhag Eretz Yisrael and everyone who lives in EY should follow that.  The rest is history, it is important, it is fascinating but it belongs in a museum.

This did not have to do with racism... I am not going to argue about this again here. But the fact that there are 1/3 Sephardic girls in this school makes the issue not racism but something else. Is it not true that the Israeli supreme court has less than 1/3 representation for Sephardim? I have heard this is the case, if it is true then the Supreme Court is supremely hypocritical.

And whether one can simply say which of the minhagim are correct is not simple at all. I am Ashkenazi and I feel that Ashkenazi is the correct way, and there is truth in Chassidus which I believe cannot be forgotten... You will not have agreement from me on this issue.

[habiru]

I too am officially Ashkenazi and of Hassidic descent. SO what? it's time to move on. We don't live in Lodz and Budapest anymore.

[muman613]

IsraelNationalNews continues to portray this incident in a better light for the Haredim:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138285

Top Rabbis Reach Compromise, Jailed Emanuel Dads Released
Tammuz 15, 5770, 27 June 10 06:39
by Gil Ronen

(Israelnationalnews.com) Thirty-four hareidi-religious fathers were released from Ma'asiyahu low-security jail Sunday after ten days' incarceration, just before the court was about to send 22 of their wives to jail also. The release was made possible by a compromise struck between Sephardic spiritual leader Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef and the Slonimer Rebbe, who leads an Ashkenazi Hassidic dynasty. 

The High Court punished the parents, who belong to the Slonimer dynasty, for allegedly refusing to send their daughters to a school in Emanuel  because of disdain for Sephardic students there.

The parents' representatives said that they had not objected to the fact that the other girls were Sephardic, but rather to their relatively low level in Torah studies.

The fathers celebrated their freedom Sunday with joyous song and dance outside the jail.

The compromise reached by the two leading sages calls for the girls to study together at the school for the three days that remain in the current school year. During this time, the girls will attend gatherings and lectures from educators of various streams, in which the themes of unity and love of Israel will be stressed.

Girls from the Chabad school in Emanuel will also attend the study days. Among the Hassidic dynasties, Chabad is considered the most open to Sephardic Jews.

The days will serve as a prelude for talks in which the sides will reach an agreement over arrangements at the disputed school.

The agreement between the top rabbis was brokered by Shas Chairman Eli Yishai.

Attorney Aviad Visouly, who represented several jailed fathers, said the compromise was “a victory for the rabbis over the High Court.” The court, he noted, backed down from its earlier insistence that the parents sign a commitment to send their daughters to the school. By accepting the compromise between the rabbis, the attorney said, the court essentially admitted that the rabbis  were sovereign to decide the matter, not the court.

Some commentators in Israel's media claimed that the entire Emanuel school scandal was inflated by parties interested in making Hareidi Jews look bad. The High Court itself has only one Sephardic judge out of 14 judges, they noted, while 30% of the supposedly all-Ashkenazi class in Emanuel were in fact Sephardic.

[habiru]

Arutz Sheva is infected along with many in the national religious sector with HBKS also known as Haredi Butt Kissing Syndrome.

The whole Emanuel thing is just a small symptom of a much larger problem and that is all the other issues I mentioned.

The fact that the majority of haredim do not serve in the army and/or work.