Why can I not delete my account?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

patriotism is basicaly sticking with the herd.theherd in this sense is the state.do you want to live under under different nations that don't care about you and want to kill you?

There are plenty of nations that don't want to kill me.   In America, the state does not want to kill me.  Most of the populace is pro-Israel and so is the congress despite what creature sits in the oval office and the animals in the state dept.   But even the animals in the state dept right now are incapable of attacking Jewish American citizens.  The govt system prevents them (at least within a given timeframe).  This situation is similarly true in many countries, including Australia, etc.   For the given timeframe that there is no hostility and the govt is incapable of carrying out pogroms or killings of Jews, (ie until the time comes when the situation escalates and erupts like it always does and of course will given enough time) there is no logical reason to be patriotic or stuck to any other piece of land if here lies the economic opportunity, or the pleasure, or the fun, or the safety, or the serenity, etc etc.

But let's take this a step further.   What I said was very theoretical and nice, but the reality is what refutes your incoherent point.   The Israeli govt does want Israelis to die and puts their lives in danger again and again for the sake of "peace" accords with the Arabs.   When the Israeli govt imported Arafat and his terrorist thugs from Tunis and armed them, and then they started blowing up buses and murdering daily, is it in anyway logical to stay in Israel based on patriotism?   Patriotic to what?   To Shimon Peres?      Are you saying that when they did these things it was because "they care about me?"    

Patriotism is not logical, especially not yours.   The Israeli state is equally loyal (if not moreso) to its Arab citizens who want you and the state destroyed, to the terrorist PLO 'peace' partners, to Hamas, to the UN, to the US, to the EU, to the "community of nations" and the usurper and squatter Arabs sitting in Judea and Samaria - than it is to you.   "YOU" are not the state's interest.   The pseudo-fascist mentality Israelis are brainwashed with is by design so that "YOU" don't comprehend this simple self-evident fact.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

the only development i care for is a scientific and millitary development.

But other people like other kinds of development.  Some people like economic development, others like educational development, development of the arts, development of profound philosophical tradition, etc.   Who says that your preferred development is more important than theirs?   And who says ANY of these notions are necessities that thereby obligate a person in commitment to its furtherance?   There is simply no logical reason for anyone to commit to any of these things except "Well, I like that" or "well, I care for that."   That is not scientific or logical.   That is simply your personal desires which you project onto everyone else.

You missed the point of what I was saying which is that there is no logical reason why a state has to expand (or contract, or stay the same) by default in any situation.   You simply determined that as the end goal and then made a religion out of it.  But who says it's true?   On what authority do you assert it thus?   NONE, nadda, zilch, zero.

i based this claims on theauthority of some of the best thinker ever existed.

What thinker?   You have not answered the question.   There are many thinkers and often thinkers disagree with one another.   Why are you an authority to pick the "best" and decide  which one is correct while the others are wrong.

But once again you have missed the point.   There is no logical or scientific reason why any given state must expand.  Therefore there is no logical reason to devote myself to a state's expansion.   But more at the root of the problem, there is no logical reason I should devote myself to the state's anything.

[Ben m]

the only development i care for is a scientific and millitary development.

But other people like other kinds of development.  Some people like economic development, others like educational development, development of the arts, development of profound philosophical tradition, etc.   Who says that your preferred development is more important than theirs?   And who says ANY of these notions are necessities that thereby obligate a person in commitment to its furtherance?   There is simply no logical reason for anyone to commit to any of these things except "Well, I like that" or "well, I care for that."   That is not scientific or logical.   That is simply your personal desires which you project onto everyone else.

You missed the point of what I was saying which is that there is no logical reason why a state has to expand (or contract, or stay the same) by default in any situation.   You simply determined that as the end goal and then made a religion out of it.  But who says it's true?   On what authority do you assert it thus?   NONE, nadda, zilch, zero.

i based this claims on theauthority of some of the best thinker ever existed.

What thinker?   You have not answered the question.   There are many thinkers and often thinkers disagree with one another.   Why are you an authority to pick the "best" and decide  which one is correct while the others are wrong.

But once again you have missed the point.   There is no logical or scientific reason why any given state must expand.  Therefore there is no logical reason to devote myself to a state's expansion.   But more at the root of the problem, there is no logical reason I should devote myself to the state's anything.

the state should expand in order to acuire resources and to ensure it's survival.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

the state should expand in order to acuire resources and to ensure it's survival.

Many states can acquire resources without expanding.

But while we're on the subject let's address something else you're overlooking.  Who cares about a state's survival?  Why does that matter?    No objective reason why it does.  If you say so that the humans can survive, they can survive without states, just as humans did for thousands of years before the idea came about.

But you are just going around in circles because you can't face the facts that your beliefs are irrational and not based on science or logic like you wish to think they are.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'm done arguing with you for now since you've obviously exhausted your own resources, but let's see if I give you some time to think about it if you can come up with anything interesting and/or new to say (will be back another time of course).

[Ben m]

the state should expand in order to acuire resources and to ensure it's survival.

Many states can acquire resources without expanding.

But while we're on the subject let's address something else you're overlooking.  Who cares about a state's survival?  Why does that matter?    No objective reason why it does.  If you say so that the humans can survive, they can survive without states, just as humans did for thousands of years before the idea came about.

But you are just going around in circles because you can't face the facts that your beliefs are irrational and not based on science or logic like you wish to think they are.   

thye state is the ultimate human creation.this alone should make the state the most importan thing in the human life.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

We do not delete accounts. If you do not wish to be part of JTF, don't come to our forum.

Am I the last Jew who has enough self-respect to hate Germany for murdering over 6 million Jews? This thread disgusts me.

Hyades is a Jew who wants to leave this forum out of loyalty to Germany, and no one except for Ron Ben Michael understands how grotesque this is? Hyades is offended by attacks on Nazi Germany, which to this day does everything possible to help the Arabs perpetrate another holocaust against tiny Israel. Nazi Germany which is the leading nation in the Nazi European Union who demand day and night that Israel commit national suicide. Nazi Germany and the Nazi European Union which fund "Peace Now" and every traitor organization that is committed to getting Israel to self-destruct. Nazi Germany, which to this day has a public that is overwhelmingly anti-Israel and anti-Semitic.

Hyades is offended? I am offended on behalf of 6 million murdered Jews that Hyades is loyal to Nazi Germany.

Ron Ben Michael has responded here like a Jew with self-respect.

[דוד בן זאב אריה]

Amen Chaim. Thanks for stating what needed to be said

[briann]

I guess I'll be the devils advocate here, but I think Hyades is right; and I won't generalize all germans as being evil.

I think people need to understand, there is a difference between a country and its leaders, and nowhere is that more apparent that America.

I hate America's leaders/politicians and I have nothing but contempt for them, but if you go around saying all America is an 'evil' country because of our politicians' actions are evil, then yes I will be somewhat offended.  I don't know if I'd leave this forum, but yes, I'd be offended.

Here in the US, there are countless wonderful Jews and righteous gentiles who hate Obama. and love Israel.  And the same is true in Europe; albeit, in a smaller percentage, but they are there.

If we generalize every other country as being evil, its gonna come back and hurt us as we try to build bridges with other righteous gentiles around the globe. Especially as younger Gentile Europeans are slowly starting to warm-up to people Like Geert Wilders; they would LOVE groups like JTF.  

YES I HATE nearly ALL of Europe's leaders, BUT, when I see people like Geert, who is now the statistical favorite to become the next PM, it gives me hope.

[muman613]

No doubt Germany is guilty of a great offense against the Jewish people. I don't know why anyone would want to stay there. I am the first one to condemn the nazis and all who sat by as the nazis killed so many Jews.

I do understand how a person who is born into a society wants to believe that it is good. Especially young German Jews who may not have any relations to those who suffered during the Churban. We should condemn mightily the depraved acts of the German people and we should reach out to help get those Jews who are in the Galut to want to make aliyah.

I don't know if threatening them with turning their backs on their people will be able to accomplish this goal. I hope that more work can be done by Jewish organizations to arrange for Aliyah to Israel. I will make that step soon, I estimate within the next 10 years.

[briann]

I do understand how a person who is born into a society wants to believe that it is good.

Muman,  I think its great that you are working towards Aliyah, but once you leave, and you hear a fellow Israeli say all America is evil because of Obama and his actions, would you be at least somewhat offended?

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

I guess I'll be the devils advocate here, but I think Hyades is right; and I won't generalize all germans as being evil.

I think people need to understand, there is a difference between a country and its leaders, and nowhere is that more apparent that America.

I hate America's leaders/politicians and I have nothing but contempt for them, but if you go around saying all America is an 'evil' country because of our politicians' actions are evil, then yes I will be somewhat offended.  I don't know if I'd leave this forum, but yes, I'd be offended.

Here in the US, there are countless wonderful Jews and righteous gentiles who hate Obama. and love Israel.  And the same is true in Europe; albeit, in a smaller percentage, but they are there.

If we generalize every other country as being evil, its gonna come back and hurt us as we try to build bridges with other righteous gentiles around the globe. Especially as younger Gentile Europeans are slowly starting to warm-up to people Like Geert Wilders; they would LOVE groups like JTF.  

YES I HATE nearly ALL of Europe's leaders, BUT, when I see people like Geert, who is now the statistical favorite to become the next PM, it gives me hope.

בס''ד

Germany murdered 6 million Jews. The German people murdered 6 million Jews. To say otherwise is to engage in holocaust revisionism. If after committing the most atrocious crime in human history, the Germans of today are viciously anti-Israel, then it is obvious that nothing has really changed except that Germany was defeated in the war. The goal of exterminating the Jews continues, with the Arab Nazis now doing the dirty work that the German Nazis once did with enthusiasm.

Geert Wilders is pro-Israel and I support him. But he is a strong political leader in Holland, not Germany.

For a Jew to love Germany and be loyal to Germany after what happened in the holocaust is the ultimate example of self-hatred.

If there are Germans who truly hate Nazism and sincerely condemn anti-Semitism and sincerely support Israel, then I have nothing against them but they are clearly a small minority.

I will never forget and never forgive the murder of 6 million Jews. If Germans sincerely regretted what their parents and grandparents did, then they would be the biggest supporters of Israel today after knowing that their people had committed the cruelest and most barbarous crime in human history. Instead the vast majority of Germans support the Arab Nazis who seek to finish Hitler's job.

[muman613]

I do understand how a person who is born into a society wants to believe that it is good.

Muman,  I think its great that you are working towards Aliyah, but once you leave, and you hear a fellow Israeli say all America is evil because of Obama and his actions, would you be at least somewhat offended?

I would not defend Obama for a second. I believe I will have good memories of America because for the most part we have been very successful here in America. I am 3rd generation American as my family {both mother and father} came from Europe in the late 1890s. Every generation was more sucessful than the previous... I know I will be successful in Israel because I have the skills that they need. The company I work for just last year purchased an Israeli company in Tel Aviv. I know I could work there, and there is another company I know in Israel whom I know some of the long-time employees.

[briann]

I guess I'll be the devils advocate here, but I think Hyades is right; and I won't generalize all germans as being evil.

I think people need to understand, there is a difference between a country and its leaders, and nowhere is that more apparent that America.

I hate America's leaders/politicians and I have nothing but contempt for them, but if you go around saying all America is an 'evil' country because of our politicians' actions are evil, then yes I will be somewhat offended.  I don't know if I'd leave this forum, but yes, I'd be offended.

Here in the US, there are countless wonderful Jews and righteous gentiles who hate Obama. and love Israel.  And the same is true in Europe; albeit, in a smaller percentage, but they are there.

If we generalize every other country as being evil, its gonna come back and hurt us as we try to build bridges with other righteous gentiles around the globe. Especially as younger Gentile Europeans are slowly starting to warm-up to people Like Geert Wilders; they would LOVE groups like JTF.  

YES I HATE nearly ALL of Europe's leaders, BUT, when I see people like Geert, who is now the statistical favorite to become the next PM, it gives me hope.

בס''ד

Germany murdered 6 million Jews. The German people murdered 6 million Jews. To say otherwise is to engage in holocaust revisionism. If after committing the most atrocious crime in human history, the Germans of today are viciously anti-Israel, then it is obvious that nothing has really changed except that Germany was defeated in the war. The goal of exterminating the Jews continues, with the Arab Nazis now doing the dirty work that the German Nazis once did with enthusiasm.

Geert Wilders is pro-Israel and I support him. But he is a strong political leader in Holland, not Germany.

For a Jew to love Germany and be loyal to Germany after what happened in the holocaust is the ultimate example of self-hatred.

If there are Germans who truly hate Nazism and sincerely condemn anti-Semitism and sincerely support Israel, then I have nothing against them but they are clearly a small minority.

I will never forget and never forgive the murder of 6 million Jews. If Germans sincerely regretted what their parents and grandparents did, then they would be the biggest supporters of Israel today after knowing that their people had committed the cruelest and most barbarous crime in human history. Instead the vast majority of Germans support the Arab Nazis who seek to finish Hitler's job.

I understand that, and have said that I will always be skeptical of German (and Austrian) politics because of this for eternity, but I just want the JTF to be part of what I see as a new movement that has sprung up from nowhere in Europe.  Geert's followers have something in common with our gentile followers here, they are young and righteous and pissed off as hell at how the unrighteous have destroyed their country.  I want to encourage them, wherever possible to join our movement or at least be aligned with our ideology.  The same dynamics that make the JTF a popular draw for the righteous here, are applicable there, at least to some degree.

That is why I dont like generalizations about all Europeans.  

BUT there is NO QUESTION that Europe has been OVERWHELMINGLY pro-nazi and pro-Arab, and I have never been a pro-European kinda guy.  NOTHING can exuse their evil actions.  But again, Im just thinking about building as many bridges we can to the Geert followers.

[Yaakov Mendel]

If Germans sincerely regretted what their parents and grandparents did, then they would be the biggest supporters of Israel today after knowing that their people had committed the cruelest and most barbarous crime in human history

That's very true. Germany could and should have done a lot more to support Israel. There is not enough awareness of this.
Also, let us not forget that Germany got away much too lightly and easily with what it had done after WWII. Germany, and many of its allies, came nowhere close to the punishment they should have received considering the gravity of the crime they had committed. Nothing disgusts me more than to think of the happy lives that a lot of former Nazis led after the war, in Latin America, in the US, in Europe and even in Germany itself.

[IsraelForever]

"Hitler's Willing Executioners" (1996) is a book by American writer Daniel Goldhagen that posits that ordinary Germans not only knew about, but also supported, the Holocaust.

Goldhagen's thesis about the Germans (and one to which I subscribe) is as follows:

"The German perpetrators of the Holocaust treated Jews in all the brutal and lethal ways that they did because, by and large, they believed that what they were doing was right and necessary. Second, that there was long existing, virulent antisemitism in German society that led to the desire on the part of the vast majority of Germans to eliminate Jews somehow from German society. Third, that any explanation of the Holocaust must address and specify the causal relationship between antisemitism in Germany and the persecution and extermination of the Jews which so many ordinary Germans contributed to and supported."

[Ben m]

I guess I'll be the devils advocate here, but I think Hyades is right; and I won't generalize all germans as being evil.

I think people need to understand, there is a difference between a country and its leaders, and nowhere is that more apparent that America.

I hate America's leaders/politicians and I have nothing but contempt for them, but if you go around saying all America is an 'evil' country because of our politicians' actions are evil, then yes I will be somewhat offended.  I don't know if I'd leave this forum, but yes, I'd be offended.

Here in the US, there are countless wonderful Jews and righteous gentiles who hate Obama. and love Israel.  And the same is true in Europe; albeit, in a smaller percentage, but they are there.

If we generalize every other country as being evil, its gonna come back and hurt us as we try to build bridges with other righteous gentiles around the globe. Especially as younger Gentile Europeans are slowly starting to warm-up to people Like Geert Wilders; they would LOVE groups like JTF.  

YES I HATE nearly ALL of Europe's leaders, BUT, when I see people like Geert, who is now the statistical favorite to become the next PM, it gives me hope.

בס''ד

Germany murdered 6 million Jews. The German people murdered 6 million Jews. To say otherwise is to engage in holocaust revisionism. If after committing the most atrocious crime in human history, the Germans of today are viciously anti-Israel, then it is obvious that nothing has really changed except that Germany was defeated in the war. The goal of exterminating the Jews continues, with the Arab Nazis now doing the dirty work that the German Nazis once did with enthusiasm.

Geert Wilders is pro-Israel and I support him. But he is a strong political leader in Holland, not Germany.

For a Jew to love Germany and be loyal to Germany after what happened in the holocaust is the ultimate example of self-hatred.

If there are Germans who truly hate Nazism and sincerely condemn anti-Semitism and sincerely support Israel, then I have nothing against them but they are clearly a small minority.

I will never forget and never forgive the murder of 6 million Jews. If Germans sincerely regretted what their parents and grandparents did, then they would be the biggest supporters of Israel today after knowing that their people had committed the cruelest and most barbarous crime in human history. Instead the vast majority of Germans support the Arab Nazis who seek to finish Hitler's job.

so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.

[mord]

I guess I'll be the devils advocate here, but I think Hyades is right; and I won't generalize all germans as being evil.

I think people need to understand, there is a difference between a country and its leaders, and nowhere is that more apparent that America.

I hate America's leaders/politicians and I have nothing but contempt for them, but if you go around saying all America is an 'evil' country because of our politicians' actions are evil, then yes I will be somewhat offended.  I don't know if I'd leave this forum, but yes, I'd be offended.

Here in the US, there are countless wonderful Jews and righteous gentiles who hate Obama. and love Israel.  And the same is true in Europe; albeit, in a smaller percentage, but they are there.

If we generalize every other country as being evil, its gonna come back and hurt us as we try to build bridges with other righteous gentiles around the globe. Especially as younger Gentile Europeans are slowly starting to warm-up to people Like Geert Wilders; they would LOVE groups like JTF.  

YES I HATE nearly ALL of Europe's leaders, BUT, when I see people like Geert, who is now the statistical favorite to become the next PM, it gives me hope.

בס''ד

Germany murdered 6 million Jews. The German people murdered 6 million Jews. To say otherwise is to engage in holocaust revisionism. If after committing the most atrocious crime in human history, the Germans of today are viciously anti-Israel, then it is obvious that nothing has really changed except that Germany was defeated in the war. The goal of exterminating the Jews continues, with the Arab Nazis now doing the dirty work that the German Nazis once did with enthusiasm.

Geert Wilders is pro-Israel and I support him. But he is a strong political leader in Holland, not Germany.

For a Jew to love Germany and be loyal to Germany after what happened in the holocaust is the ultimate example of self-hatred.

If there are Germans who truly hate Nazism and sincerely condemn anti-Semitism and sincerely support Israel, then I have nothing against them but they are clearly a small minority.

I will never forget and never forgive the murder of 6 million Jews. If Germans sincerely regretted what their parents and grandparents did, then they would be the biggest supporters of Israel today after knowing that their people had committed the cruelest and most barbarous crime in human history. Instead the vast majority of Germans support the Arab Nazis who seek to finish Hitler's job.

so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.

Ben is correct here

[Yaakov Mendel]

so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.

Ben is correct here

I don't agree. Not all nations have persecuted Jews, at least not all nations to the same extent. From a historical point of view, it is obvious that Germany stands out in the list of antisemitic nations, especially in recent history. Again, that doesn't mean that all Germans are antisemites, particularly today's Germans. But that justifies some form of special treatment. Not all nations behaved the same way towards Jews. For example, Danes behaved much more honourably during WWII than, say, Germany or Poland.

[mord]

so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.

Ben is correct here

I don't agree. Not all nations have persecuted Jews, at least not all nations to the same extent. From a historical point of view, it is obvious that Germany stands out in the list of antisemitic nations, especially in recent history. Again, that doesn't mean that all Germans are antisemites, particularly today's Germans. But that justifies some form of special treatment. Not all nations behaved the same way towards Jews. For example, Danes behaved much more honourably during WWII than, say, Germany or Poland.

True but the Poles were on the list   of people to be destroyed.Poles were much more harshly treated then Danes

[Irish Zionist]

Ben m says:so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.


The Jews should hate every nation that persecuted The Jews, doesn't recognise what they did and is against The Jewish State.

[Ben m]

Ben m says:so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.


The Jews should hate every nation that persecuted The Jews, doesn't recognise what they did and is against The Jewish State.

by your logic we need to hate the irish.they are today one of the most anti israel nation on earth.

[Irish Zionist]

Ben m says:so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.


The Jews should hate every nation that persecuted The Jews, doesn't recognise what they did and is against The Jewish State.

by your logic we need to hate the irish.they are today one of the most anti israel nation on earth.

Yes you should hate The Irish. Anyone who is anti Israel deserves to be hated. I hate my own people for what their doing.

[Ben m]

Ben m says:so what do you say chaim? that we need to hate all the other nations beacuse almost every nationon earth did something against jews in the past? this is nonsense.


The Jews should hate every nation that persecuted The Jews, doesn't recognise what they did and is against The Jewish State.

by your logic we need to hate the irish.they are today one of the most anti israel nation on earth.

Yes you should hate The Irish. Anyone who is anti Israel deserves to be hated. I hate my own people for what their doing.

okay.remember that.you hear me! everybody should hate brian.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

בס''ד

We do not delete accounts. If you do not wish to be part of JTF, don't come to our forum.

Am I the last Jew who has enough self-respect to hate Germany for murdering over 6 million Jews? This thread disgusts me.

Hyades is a Jew who wants to leave this forum out of loyalty to Germany, and no one except for Ron Ben Michael understands how grotesque this is?

It seems to me that Zelhar and I (and maybe others) also understood that.