Orthodox US rabbis: Accept homosexuals

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

HE would, but he also says the rules of his congregation forbid it. And Ruby replied that it may be a caution to avoid bad influences.
I am not offended if someone wants to avoid contact with people of a different faith, or he goes to a congregation that advises it. But I am quite inquistive about those issues because, if someone seeks the support of Jews to condemn sinners (sometimes to a further extent than required by the Torah), it would be a quite disagreeable surprise to discover that they might place Jews and Noahides in the same level of condemnation.

There are a few Jews who wouldn't want Gentiles in their home. Most, including everyone at JTF, isn't like that though. In any case if he himself is not like that, what is the big deal?

[Raulmarrio2000]

HE would, but he also says the rules of his congregation forbid it. And Ruby replied that it may be a caution to avoid bad influences.
I am not offended if someone wants to avoid contact with people of a different faith, or he goes to a congregation that advises it. But I am quite inquistive about those issues because, if someone seeks the support of Jews to condemn sinners (sometimes to a further extent than required by the Torah), it would be a quite disagreeable surprise to discover that they might place Jews and Noahides in the same level of condemnation.

There are a few Jews who wouldn't want Gentiles in their home. Most, including everyone at JTF, isn't like that though. In any case if he himself is not like that, what is the big deal?

A Jew not wanting Gentiles in his home has a reason and an explanation for that. Ritual laws, in some cases the need to avoid falling in love with someone with whom marriage is not allowed. But Jews DO NOT consider that Gentiles are evil or that they should become Jewish.
But a Christian congregation telling its members not to invite anyone who has not accepted Jesus is quite a different thing. It's not a cultural or ritual law. It has to do with the belief that non-Christians (including Jews and Noahides) are in the wrong path and they don't want close contact with them.

If a Gentile visted a Jew, he might have problems with respcting some customs, ritual laws like kosher, and even cultural differences. It would be a reason for some Jews not to invite him.
But Christianity is not a culture and it has no ritual laws at home. It's quite unlikely that he could mistakenly do something wrong in his home. If a Christian does not invite a person of different religion, just for not having accepted Jeses, it means that he condemns him. It's ok. But if that Christian claims to support Jews and does not accept them, I see a potential for a polical problem in future because now he is sidding with Jews opposing some sins condemned by both. But what would his stance be in case the issue is condemning the "Jewish disbelief"?

[takebackourtemple]

   What is interesting is that people seeking conversion who follow all the laws(they are not allowed to keep shabbat so they have to do something minor like ripping toilet paper) don't count towards the minyan while someone born Jewish who violates just about every law is counted.

[Raulmarrio2000]

  What is interesting is that people seeking conversion who follow all the laws(they are not allowed to keep shabbat so they have to do something minor like ripping toilet paper) don't count towards the minyan while someone born Jewish who violates just about every law is counted.

That's a Torah Law. And if you are Jewish you have to accept that. A person seeking conversion is in fact not keeping any mitzvot even if he externally keeps all the rules. He is just practising to get used to the mitzvot and do them after conversion. But it's no mitzvah for him. The only valid mitzvot he keeps are the Noahide Laws. Since he is still a Gentile, it's quite reasonable that he is not allowed to join the Minian. Why would he join a praying assembly of a people that is still not his people. It's like a nationality. A person can be very good and even keep the US constitution better than Americans, but he cannot vote in US untill he gets legal citizenship.

[Ulli]

1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.

2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".

I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.

And I add I don't put Jews and Nohides on the same level how homosexuals! If this was your impression I apologize.

[Raulmarrio2000]

1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.

2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".

I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.

It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)

[Ulli]

1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.

2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".

I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.

It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)

We reject political power. So there is no problem. A secular gouvernment is in my eyes better than a religious one for several reasons.

I think to center on your own community is a good thing. Of cause this is exclusive, but you shouldn't get this as an affront.

I am personally a very great fan of the Jews and all things that are Jewish, althrough no believer in Judaism. It is more like this kids with the Ninja and Samurai spleen.

[muman613]

1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.

2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".

I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.

It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)

We reject political power. So there is no problem. A secular gouvernment is in my eyes better than a religious one for several reasons.

I think to center on your own community is a good thing. Of cause this is exclusive, but you shouldn't get this as an affront.

I am personally a very great fan of the Jews and all things that are Jewish, althrough no believer in Judaism. It is more like this kids with the Ninja and Samurai spleen.

Judaism does not exist as a novelty for gentiles to dabble with... Im sorry Ulli you lost me on this comment...

[Ulli]

1. It is not my business to teach Jews and Noahides what to do.

2. I will not invite anybody to my home beside my brethren in faith and my friends from the "old time".

I will not change my oppinion on this. And if this is anti-semtism, than I am one.

It depends on your reasons. If all your meetings at your home are meant to talk about and share your faith, it's logic not to invite others. If you have some moral objection to befriending Jews personally at home, it borders anti-Semitism. But as far as it is just a private issue at your home, I have no ojection to your attitude.
The problem is that you join Jews and Noahides here to talk against some sins forbidden by both the Torah and the Gospels. (sodomy, secularism....) and you advocated that those transgressors should not be accepted. So I wonder how you would act in a country where your Christian denomination were a majority if the issue were the acceptance of Jews and Noahides. (since according to some interpretaions of the Gospel which your congregation seems to follow, Jews and Noahides are also condemned)

We reject political power. So there is no problem. A secular gouvernment is in my eyes better than a religious one for several reasons.

I think to center on your own community is a good thing. Of cause this is exclusive, but you shouldn't get this as an affront.

I am personally a very great fan of the Jews and all things that are Jewish, althrough no believer in Judaism. It is more like this kids with the Ninja and Samurai spleen.

Judaism does not exist as a novelty for gentiles to dabble with... Im sorry Ulli you lost me on this comment...

Muman you didn't understand me. If I choose this comparision I wanted to highlight that it is cultural thing no religious.

You can be enshured, that I didn't sit at home and practice any rituals.

If the comparison was wrong I apologize.

But yes I have a cookbook with Jewish receipts, I read Henryk M. Broder, Leon de Winter, Milton Friedman etc. and some books about Jewish culture and religion and I like listen to Chaim.

But I have even more books about reformed Christianity and Christianity in general.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Could you all stop twisting Ulli's words already? He isn't Jewish--do you all expect him to be more Jewish than Chaim in his personal life?

[Ulli]

I have to go now to a customer. Will be back in the evening.

Thanks DBF for the support. But perhaps Muman had the thought I would dress like a Jew and would perform Jewish rituals and holidays at home, as some of the asia fans dressed as Ninjas do. This is not the case.

I think next time I will choose words more carefully.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I have to go now to a customer. Will be back in the evening.

Thanks DBF for the support. But perhaps Muman had the thought I would dress like a Jew and would perform Jewish rituals and holidays at home, as some of the asia fans dressed as Ninjas do. This is not the case.

I think next time I will choose words more carefully.

I don't think you said anything wrong. You were drawing an analogy between your faith's practices and what (real) Orthodox synagogues do in regards to homosexuals.

[muman613]

I have to go now to a customer. Will be back in the evening.

Thanks DBF for the support. But perhaps Muman had the thought I would dress like a Jew and would perform Jewish rituals and holidays at home, as some of the asia fans dressed as Ninjas do. This is not the case.

I think next time I will choose words more carefully.

I don't think you said anything wrong. You were drawing an analogy between your faith's practices and what (real) Orthodox synagogues do in regards to homosexuals.

My only objection is that he appears to make Judaism into something to be a fan of, sorta like Baseball or Football fans... Judaism is a religion which considers itself to be the one and only truth of G-d and this is why we are not supposed to teach Torah to non-Jews. I often ask myself if it is wise to openly discuss some deep secrets of Torah here because many non-Jews read what I write and make Judaism into something like a hobby, something not taken seriously as it should be.

When I first joined JTF I did not realize that a good portion of readers were non-Jews and as a result I have said things which were taken the wrong way. I have faith that the day will come when we know the truth of G-d clearly...

[Raulmarrio2000]

Ulli, I have no problem if your community is exclusive or you have it forbidden to receive people who are strange to your faith at home. It's ok if you like Jewish food, music or any Jewish cultural item but don't believe in Judaism.
If you center in your community and reject political power, that's all ok. But since this forum addresses political issues and you take part in it (even more, this thread is about Jews in USA, not your community and not your country) I wanted to check your stance. I always enquire about people who support the Jewish/Noahide position from the perspective of another religion because I wonder what stance they may adopt on other issues where there is disagreement.

[Raulmarrio2000]

Muman, even if all members of the forum were Jewish, the settings allow non-members to read posts. Non-members are only forbidden to post. And this forum is quite known and read. So, if there is some Torah teaching that you think or your Rav has told you that may not be taught to Gentiles, it's better not to post it here.

[Zelhar]

I don't think there is anything wrong in a seclusive community. I personally think that Jews should stick to the values of giving hospitality for strangers as described in the bible but some Jewish groups seem to prefer seclusion. Maybe they learned that from during the exile in Europe.

[Dr. Dan]

Muman I have to disagree.

[Rubystars]

My only objection is that he appears to make Judaism into something to be a fan of, sorta like Baseball or Football fans...

He admires aspects of Judaism and is interested in learning about it even though he doesn't believe in all its teachings and is content as a Christian.

[MassuhDGoodName]

muman613:  "Judaism is a religion which considers itself to be the one and only truth of G-d and this is why we are not supposed to teach Torah to non-Jews. I often ask myself if it is wise to openly discuss some deep secrets of Torah here because many non-Jews read what I write and make Judaism into something like a hobby, something not taken seriously as it should be. "

With all due respect, muman613, the day and age in which we live makes possible a virtually instantaneous access to almost any and all sources of information.

I had accessed all of the Torah websites which you have offered as sources long before I saw them as links here on the forum.

Going a step further, Christians base their faith on our Scriptures, and know full well that without Torah there is no justification for their belief in a Messiah.

Granted, Christian translations, interpretations, and doctrines differ from those of the Jews, but the fact remains that they consider Torah the basis for their beliefs.

In the days of Rabbi Hillel access to Torah study was unquestioningly more difficult and reserved for those willing to accept it and keep it.

Today, however, serious Christian seminaries both Protestant and Catholic require of their students the study of Biblical Hebrew and Classical Greek in order that they read scriptures in their original tongue.

Interest in Torah, as well as access to Jewish Torah study, is therefore no longer the reserve of an exclusive few.

Yet, even with all these modern advances in information access, in-depth study and understanding of Torah remains an undertaking exclusive to the Jewish Yeshiva.

I happen to view these facts as being positive, as the Jewish People's best friends in the world today are Christians who read and believe their Bibles.

I will go so far as to say that if we Jews today had among us as much interest in Torah as do our Christian friends, we wouldn't be facing most of our current troubles which clearly emanate from within and among our own people because of their ignorance.

So...go ahead and teach what you feel we must know.

It certainly has been a great blessing and benefit to myself and to many others.

Rest assured that the average visitor to this forum will never read most of your posts, as most are a very difficult and esoteric read even for someone fairly knowledgeable of Torah.

[Debbie Shafer]

Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d.  Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination.  Gays have an agenda, first they invade institution as persecuted minorities, then force the institutions to pass law to ban all negative talks about homosexuality as hate speech.

Imagine Moses and Aaron accepting homosexuals in the ancient congregation!!!

This is why We are all falling from grace, and loosing our freedoms, because there are those who do not obey God's word.

Romans 1:24- Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the creator- who is forever praised.  Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion..   Its is always a mystery to me how people can read these words and go ahead with their sins and not think the Almighty will judge them in a harsh way!

[muman613]

Homosexuality is an abomination to G-d.  Therefore accepting homosexuals is an abomination.  Gays have an agenda, first they invade institution as persecuted minorities, then force the institutions to pass law to ban all negative talks about homosexuality as hate speech.

Imagine Moses and Aaron accepting homosexuals in the ancient congregation!!!

This is why We are all falling from grace, and loosing our freedoms, because there are those who do not obey G-d's word.

Romans 1:24- Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the creator- who is forever praised.  Because of this G-d gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves due penalty for their perversion..   Its is always a mystery to me how people can read these words and go ahead with their sins and not think the Almighty will judge them in a harsh way!

And there is a great difference between Christianity and Judaism concerning this... As several other posters here said Judaism does not make Homosexuality a crime... Only sexual intercourse between men is considered an offense which can be punished by death when witnessed by at least two observers and only after being warned about it. Judaism doesn't condemn same sex attraction, only the act of sodomy itself.

And as we have said before... The penalty for homosexuality is no more reviled than that of Shabbat desecration... And as others have said if the Shul would prohibit all Shabbat desecrators and all who don't eat kosher and all who don't keep the laws of Niddah {womens purity} then there would be nobody who can go to shul...

Remember that the man who collected wood on Shabbat was stoned to death... I think it would be easier to get every Jew to observe Shabbat first and then we can worry about the problem with homosexuality..

PS: Romans is not in Tanakh, is not a part of Jewish scripture. I do not read that...

[Ulli]

Ulli, I have no problem if your community is exclusive or you have it forbidden to receive people who are strange to your faith at home. It's ok if you like Jewish food, music or any Jewish cultural item but don't believe in Judaism.
If you center in your community and reject political power, that's all ok. But since this forum addresses political issues and you take part in it (even more, this thread is about Jews in USA, not your community and not your country) I wanted to check your stance. I always enquire about people who support the Jewish/Noahide position from the perspective of another religion because I wonder what stance they may adopt on other issues where there is disagreement.

Raul, I told once a brother in faith about JTF. He said, that I didn't belong there, not mainly because here are many non-Christians, but because it is involved in politics and wants to gain political power.

I know that a lot of statements I make here would be heavily disapproved by the members of my assembly.

I am disrupted between the nice members of JTF here and my congregation. It is not easy.

But I am connected to both. I have no idea, where it comes from, but I like Jewish culture. Even the Jewish culture many Jews here would not like. I admire the self-discipline of the Jewish people, their capability to focus on a goal and to reach it, their brilliance in thought and their creativity to find solutions for problems other have not seen before. And yes I try to learn from them in this fields and try to copy technics they use to solve problems. I like reading stories about successfull Jews in books or in magazines.

And Muman yes you are right, I read your postings. You know, that I think that Jews can do whatever they want in Israel because it is theirs. So none of the things you wrote would be offensive to me, even if I would not like them - what is very rarely the case.

[Rubystars]

If a Christian does not invite a person of different religion, just for not having accepted Jeses, it means that he condemns him. It's ok. But if that Christian claims to support Jews and does not accept them, I see a potential for a polical problem in future because now he is sidding with Jews opposing some sins condemned by both. But what would his stance be in case the issue is condemning the "Jewish disbelief"?

Christians don't believe all the same things that Jews do, but the Christians here are not anti-Semites. Don't equate theological disagreements to hatred.

We believe our own religion is right, that doesn't mean we condemn people who don't agree.