Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Gentiles and Mitzvahs
Lubab:
--- Quote from: genteelgentile on May 20, 2007, 08:51:49 PM ---I was searching out websites that list and explain the 613 Commandments that Jews are supposed to follow. Now, what I am wondering is why are non Jews not required or even forbidden to follow them? Where I am coming from is the idea that Judaism is the "Light Unto All Nations." That means to me that Jews should set a good example. If we are to follow that example, why not let us incorporate such commandments into our lives. Thank you for any info.
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To GenteelGentile:
I'm going to answer this as if it were the first post after the question. I haven't read the debate going on now carefully enough to really weigh in on it, but maybe when you read this it will clear up some things.
Here is my two cents:
Let’s start with the premise that since G-d created us He knows what’s best for us. He gave us certain characteristics and qualities and He gave us all the jobs that perfectly fit with who we are. When we fulfill OUR job, this is how we are going to be the most happy and fulfilled and successful because it’s in line with our purpose in this world.
As someone said before, some Jews were given the job to work in the Temple and some were not. Even within that, some were given certain jobs to do in the Temple and some other jobs. In this way everything went smoothly and beautifully. Each one was equally necessary to do their own particular job. If everyone decided to be a High Priest, it would be chaos, and nobody would be happy.
This is like an army, where everyone has a very specific role and when everyone does their exact role it all works together like a perfect machine. It’s also compared to a body, where each organ has a specific role and when a body’s cells starts doing the jobs of other cells, I think you know what kind of terrible consequences that can have…
Being a "light unto the nations" does NOT mean we get everyone to copy the Jews. That would be ridiculous. It means it's our job to help each person get closer to G-d in the way best way for them. Each person with their own unique mission.
With that said, if you feel you have a really good handle on the 7 Laws (not as simple as you think) Noachides may do the Mitzvos. Not because you're commanded, but as a bonus. The only Mitzvah Noachides cannot do is Shabbat (and there is some debate in the Talmud about whether they may put on Tefillin). Even Shabbat, can be done, but not in the way that Jews do it. You could for instance, make you're own reminder about how G-d created the world in 6 days by reading the account of Creation, for instance. But again, this is not necessary and it is recommended you learn more about being a proper Noachide first.
You only have 7 laws. And though they may seem simple (6 out of 7 are negative commandments) by fulfilling them as G-d's will and helping others to do them too, you are bringing the world to a state of perfection and making it ready for true redemption. More on that another time.
Now, in truth, you are right. The Torah is not nor ever was on for the Jews. Being a Noachide means you will need to learn a lot of Torah relating to you're specific laws. For instance, you ironically will need to learn the basics laws of Shabbat to ensure that you are NOT observing it.
It is also very important to learn the Torah sources about our belief in one G-d as you have an obligation not to worship idols, and if you're not worshiping the true one G-d...you're worshiping idols.
And you may even learn Jewish laws about our Mitzvos if you feel you want to take one on as I said before.
Incidentally, I once saw an interesting Medresh which says that the whole reason why gentiles hate Jews so much is because we don't teach them the Torah, they think we are hording it to ourselves. So holding back Torah for ourselves when we are not supposed to can be a very detrimental thing.
NOTE: Ptolmey's time was not the first time the Torah was translated. In fact Moses was instructed by G-d to translate the Torah in ALL SEVENTY LANGUAGES and leave it for the gentile nations to learn. (see Rashi Beir HeTev). There is no problem with the Torah being tranlated. The problem with the translation in Ptolmey's time was that the Rabbis were FORCED to translate it, and Ptolmey was going to be looking at their translations to make problems for the Jews. To avoid this the Rabbis had to water things down and this was the tragedy. (If you look in the Talmudic commentaries on this event, they support what I'm telling you and not what that OU article said about the reason for the tragedy. I do think that parts of that article represent a kind of elitist "Torah for Jews only" attitude that is prevalent but I do not believe to be backed up by the Torah sources on these topics at all and can cause unnecesary hatred).
Hope this was helpful. And a good day to you.
Dissenter:
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on May 21, 2007, 02:05:14 PM ---The Bible was a present from G-d to his chosen people and G-d gave his chosen people more commandments and restrictions to keep since he thinks we are special and he wants us to emulate him.
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According to Chaim, it was a burden as well as a gift, and it was given to the Jews not because G-d thinks that Jews are "special" (i.e., better) than Gentiles, but because Jews have one role to play in the world to come and Gentiles have another. Both Jews and Gentiles, in other words, are equally capable of emulating G-d.
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on May 21, 2007, 02:05:14 PM ---Only us Jews still know about the concept of a Noahide and what the 7 categories of laws are. Whatever is the accepted laws are in Judaism is what they are.
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Even though, as I've said, there's dispute among the sages as to exactly what the laws are? And even though the authoritative Jewish judiciary, the Sanhedrin, no longer exists?
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on May 21, 2007, 02:05:14 PM ---As for the Torah, only a Jew who understand Hebrew and who understands the Talmud can understand the Torah.
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So in other words, as Kahane Loyalist has said, even the brightest and most righteous Hebrew-speaking Gentile is incapable of doing what any Hebrew-speaking Jew, even a questionable one, is capable of doing?
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on May 21, 2007, 02:05:14 PM ---That does not mean you have to memorize the entire Talmud. If you don't understand something, then you look at a commentary written by an ancient sage on the verse which summarizes the oral tradition for that verse. Or you look can look up that specific portion in the Talmud.
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Which opens an entirely set of questions. If there's disagreement even among the Talmudic sages about the meaning of Torah, then how can you, not a sage, make your own judgment on it?
And if there's disagreement, then somebody's obviously right, and somebody's obviously wrong. (In fact, perhaps they're both wrong.) So - as I asked on another thread - what makes them, even in consensus, infallible authorities, worthy almost of apotheosis?
Dissenter:
--- Quote from: lubab on May 21, 2007, 02:21:12 PM ---I do think that parts of that article represent a kind of elitist "Torah for Jews only" attitude that is prevalent but I do not believe to be backed up by the Torah sources on these topics at all and can cause unnecesary hatred.
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Thanks for your comments, Lubab. They were helpful.
jdl4ever:
Dissenter, I'll try to explain some things to you:
1. Both Gentiles and Jews who are Righteous will go to heaven. However, Jews have a higher potential than Gentiles since they are special since they have a special gift from G-d (the Torah) which has many more times the commandments and restrictions that Gentiles have. It is logical that if someone is able to fight against his evil inclination and undergo more restrictions, he is rewarded more than someone who has less restrictions. Does that mean that all Jews will have a higher place in heaven then Gentiles? No. It all depends on the individual. Some Gentiles who are excessively righteous will reach a higher level in heaven than a righteous Jew.
2. You don't understand a fundamental concept in Judaism about disagreement. In Judaism, we believe that G-d wants the Torah to grow (there is a Biblical verse that says this but I forgot the source). What does this mean? It means that the Torah is infinite meaning that infinite amount of information can be derived from it using logical rules of derivation. These logical rules of derivation are expounded by the sages. Therefore, we don't look at argument as something bad, we look at argument as a wonderful thing that G-d delights in since it makes the Torah grow. When two authorities argue over a Biblical or Halachic concept, after the argument is over, the Torah grows exponentially since the Sages expand the Torah when they are engaged in strengthening there own argument, trying to disprove the other argument with Biblical sources, uncovering brand new concepts in the Torah to strengthen there argument etc. Most of the Talmud is actually long arguments that go on for dozens of pages. Through these arguments, most of the Talmud was written and much of the Oral Law was recovered. If we all had prophesy and everything was perfectly clear and simple, most Jews would have no reason to spend days on end trying to uncover new concepts in the Torah since everything would be clear. This is why G-d made argument, to expand the Torah. G-d loves when people are engaged in the Torah.
3. As for "How can we decide the law with arguments"; The answer is simple, we go with the accepted ruling. For all the Talmud arguments we have an accepted ruling on who is correct. You don't understand what the Rabbis argue about in the Talmud. They usually argue about minor points. Most of the time they agree on major issues but only argue on the fine concepts of a Biblical commandment or a Rabbinical commandment.
jdl4ever:
Lubab, the Talmud Megilla 9a is opposed to your viewpoint that Moses wanted to translate the Torah into 71 languages (where is the source; who is "Rashi Bar Hetav"?). The Talmud says that the Torah can only be translated into Greek and no other language because of the incident with Ptolomy. Which implies that without this incident, it would be forbidden to even translate the Torah into Greek and the Talmud says the Law is like this opinion. This proves that I am correct.
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