Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Gentiles and Mitzvahs
kahaneloyalist:
--- Quote from: Dissenter on May 21, 2007, 03:06:46 AM ---
--- Quote from: jdl4ever on May 21, 2007, 02:14:36 AM ---Genteelgentile, your signature "TORAH... Not just for Jews anymore!!!!!!" is depressing since the Torah was supposed to be a gift from G-d to his people and was never supposed to be translated from Hebrew into a foreign language. Ptolomy the King forced the Sanhedrin to translate it into Greek and that's how it was revealed to the nations. But this was a very sad day for us since this wasn't supposed to happen. The sanctity of the Torah was trampled on when this happened.
http://www.ou.org/chagim/roshchodesh/tevet/seventy.htm
--- End quote ---
Sorry, but I don't buy it.
In the first place, the article questions Ptolemy's motives. But it's well known that he was a scholar who created the world's first great library, at Alexandria, and that he gathered literature into it from all over the Hellenistic world, including what was then called Judea. (The library at its peak contained 500,000 scrolls, including a proof, dating from 200 BCE, that the world is round and has a circumference of 25,000 miles, a figure in error by less than 1%.)
In the second place, if the story is true about the 72 sages in 72 rooms, then Ptolemy used a time-honored method of scholarship, comparing and contrasting independent sources. (When the Zend Avesta, the Zoroastrian bible, was written down not long afterward, by the Persian kings, the same technique was used.)
The article also claims, quite illogically, that G-d allowed the sages to create a perfect translation of the Torah, but at the same time was angry that the "secret" would be let out.
(In fact, isn't the translation imperfect, as for example when "virgin" is confused with "maiden"? So did the 72 sages miraculously duplicate each other's mistakes?)
Finally, the article makes the claim that nobody but a Hebrew-speaker, perhaps only a Hebrew-speaking Jew, can understand the Torah, even though a miraculously perfect translation is available, at least in Greek.
There are even Jews who claim that without a thorough knowledge of the gigantic Talmud, an understanding of the Bible is completely impossible. This news, I'm sure, will come as a surprise to many who believe that they've been reading the Bible with comprehension over many long years.
It was a classic dodge in ancient times for priesthoods to claim exclusive ownership of the mysterious and esoteric lore required to guarantee salvation. For Jews, or anyone else, to claim that they have such knowledge immediately invites all sorts of unfortunate accusations.
--- End quote ---
The intial translation was perfect over time mistakes entered the translation, culminating in the intentional and comical mistranslations of the early Christians to justify Christianity.
Of course understanding the Torah SheBikhsav is impossible without Torah SheBaal Peh, and yes the Goyim who stole our Holy Torah dont actually understand what is going on in the Tanach. Any Jew can understand the Torah, and in ancient times there were local schools in every town so that all Jewish men could read and be able to learn Torah on their own, there was no exclusive elite which kept power over the people as Christians try to claim as if the Jews would run to Christianity but for their evil Rabbi overlords.
Make whatever accusations you want, we dont care.
Dissenter:
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on May 21, 2007, 08:38:40 AM ---Of course understanding the Torah SheBikhsav [the written law] is impossible without Torah SheBaal Peh [the oral law, compiled in the Talmud], and yes the Goyim who stole our Holy Torah dont actually understand what is going on in the Tanach. Any Jew can understand the Torah, and in ancient times there were local schools in every town so that all Jewish men could read and be able to learn Torah on their own, there was no exclusive elite which kept power over the people as Christians try to claim as if the Jews would run to Christianity but for their evil Rabbi overlords.
Make whatever accusations you want, we dont care.
--- End quote ---
If the Hebrew Bible is vital to the world's salvation, then how could the world have "stolen" it?
Are you saying that only a Jew is worthy of casting his eyes on it, and on the massive Talmud which, as you claim, is vital to its understanding?
Furthermore, must one be a Jew to understand it? A Jew, and not merely a speaker of Hebrew - as some non-Jews are?
And are you saying that even a Jew can't understand it without rabbinical guidance?
And if your rabbis hold the keys to your scripture, then aren't you bound to accept whatever they tell you about it?
And if a Gentile isn't worthy to gaze on it - much less capable of understanding it - then mustn't he rely on Jews to tell him how to save himself?
kahaneloyalist:
--- Quote from: Dissenter on May 21, 2007, 09:17:31 AM ---
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on May 21, 2007, 08:38:40 AM ---Of course understanding the Torah SheBikhsav [the written law] is impossible without Torah SheBaal Peh [the oral law, compiled in the Talmud], and yes the Goyim who stole our Holy Torah dont actually understand what is going on in the Tanach. Any Jew can understand the Torah, and in ancient times there were local schools in every town so that all Jewish men could read and be able to learn Torah on their own, there was no exclusive elite which kept power over the people as Christians try to claim as if the Jews would run to Christianity but for their evil Rabbi overlords.
Make whatever accusations you want, we dont care.
--- End quote ---
If the Hebrew Bible is vital to the world's salvation, then how could the world have "stolen" it?
Are you saying that only a Jew is worthy of casting his eyes on it, and on the massive Talmud which, as you claim, is vital to its understanding?
Furthermore, must one be a Jew to understand it? A Jew, and not merely a speaker of Hebrew - as some non-Jews are?
And are you saying that even a Jew can't understand it without rabbinical guidance?
And if your rabbis hold the keys to your scripture, then aren't you bound to accept whatever they tell you about it?
And if a Gentile isn't worthy to gaze on it - much less capable of understanding it - then mustn't he rely on Jews to tell him how to save himself?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---If the Hebrew Bible is vital to the world's salvation, then how could the world have "stolen" it?
--- End quote ---
The Goyim had no right to the Torah, it was given to the Jewish people and the Jewish people alone. There are certain laws which apply to the Goyim which are recorded in the Torah, but the knowledge of them existed even before the Torah as it was revealed to Adam HaRishon. It is the duty of the Jewish people to spread the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach and the duty of the Goyim to follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, but that in way means Goyim have any right to the Torah.
--- Quote ---Are you saying that only a Jew is worthy of casting his eyes on it, and on the massive Talmud which, as you claim, is vital to its understanding?
--- End quote ---
As for casting eyes on the Torah, there is a makhloket among the Rabbanim on what level Goyim may learn Torah, most would agree that they are allowed to learn on the inside the portions directly relevant to the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach. But even so what Goyim may view from the Gemara is strictly limited, even according to the most lenient of opinions.
--- Quote ---Furthermore, must one be a Jew to understand it? A Jew, and not merely a speaker of Hebrew - as some non-Jews are?
--- End quote ---
To truly understand the Torah a person must be a Jew, yes, otherwise a proper understanding is impossible.
--- Quote ---And are you saying that even a Jew can't understand it without rabbinical guidance?
--- End quote ---
To understand the Torah Rabbinical guidance is necessary for only through them can the explanations given through Moshe Rabbenu himself be passed on. In what is know as Mesorah the knowledge is passed on from the generation of the past that is closer to Har Sinai.
--- Quote ---And if your rabbis hold the keys to your scripture, then aren't you bound to accept whatever they tell you about it?
--- End quote ---
Any Jew may learn the Torah but if the Sanhedrin would make a decision all of Benai Yisrael is bound to follow their commands but any Jew may sit on the Sanhedrin the only measure of worthiness for such a position is that Jews strength in Torah.
--- Quote ---And if a Gentile isn't worthy to gaze on it - much less capable of understanding it - then mustn't he rely on Jews to tell him how to save himself?
--- End quote ---
What do you think a Ben Noach like Jimmy Sullivan does? He has accepted the Torah is the truth but that he is not a Jew.
Dissenter:
Thanks for taking the trouble to answer my questions. I've also done a little research on my own. However, I'm more confused than ever.
In the first place, it seems to me that if a Gentile is to accept the seven laws of Noah (and the antecendent six laws of Adam), then he must accept that the Talmud is correct in its delineation of them. And he must accept this on faith, believing that the Talmud is divinely inspired, without actually having made a study of it, or at least of any part of it having to do with anything but the Noahide laws.
In the second place, if there is disagreement among the rabbinic sages themselves as to what exactly constitutes the seven laws and their "subdivisions" - whether, for example, trees should be mixed, or whether horses should be mated with donkeys to produce mules, or whether castration should be practiced (even in the cases of rapists and pedophiles) - then how is the Noahide, particularly the Noahide incapable of reading Hebrew, to know what to do and what not to do?
In the third place, and most importantly, it's my understanding that Gentiles are merely forbidden from carrying out the 613 commandments. Studying them is another matter altogether, because the Noahide who properly obeys the laws given to the Gentiles becomes himself as righteous as the greatest rabbinic sage.
jdl4ever:
Noahides believe in one G-d and obey the 7 Noahide laws. Noahides were around before the Bible was given to us Jews, so the Bible was never supposed to be studied by non Jews. The Bible was a present from G-d to his chosen people and G-d gave his chosen people more commandments and restrictions to keep since he thinks we are special and he wants us to emulate him. Kahaneloyalist is correct in that there are those who say that portions of the Bible relating to Noahides should be studied by them.
Noah and Adam are examples of Noahides. The problem is that the Noahide tradition of what those 7 laws are was lost since all of the Noahides basically turned to Idol worship and lost the definition of what a Noahaide is. Only us Jews still know about the concept of a Noahide and what the 7 categories of laws are. Whatever is the accepted laws are in Judaism is what they are. As for the Torah, only a Jew who understands Hebrew and who understands the Talmud can understand the Torah. That does not mean you have to memorize the entire Talmud. If you don't understand something, then you look at a commentary written by an ancient sage on the verse which summarizes the oral tradition for that verse. Or you look can look up that specific portion in the Talmud.
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