OMG look waht Keith Ablow said from "conservatie Fox"

[Chai]

We need to send him some JTF letters.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/08/03/dr-keith-ablow-ground-zero-mosque-build-new-york/

The Muslim initiative to build a $100 million mosque just blocks from Ground Zero, where nearly 3,000 Americans were murdered by terrorists on 9/11, is understandably generating massive opposition from groups including leading politicians and the Anti-Defamation League.

After all, the perpetrators of the atrocities of 9/11 were Muslims who claimed their violence to be part of a Holy War against other faiths and against America.

Why, critics wonder, would any Muslim group seek to inflame the still-open wounds of 9/11 survivors and loved ones of those killed by planting the feet of their faith so close to the site where their religion’s extremists exterminated thousands of innocent people?

I really don’t care why — not one bit.

I want that mosque built if its proponents are seeking to enshrine the best intentions of their faith. But I want it built, even if its proponents seek to rub salt in our wounds. I want it built if its supporters are seeking the common good and looking to enrich all of us spiritually, through the exercise of their spirituality. But I want it built even if its proponents seek to glorify themselves at our expense.

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I want that mosque built if its donors love me or if they hate me.

I want that mosque built because, psychologically speaking, there can be no better site for a mosque than near Ground Zero (other than at Ground Zero, which is the single location I would prefer). Only near Ground Zero could a mosque stand as testimony to everything great about America: freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and freedom to invest capital as one chooses, wherever and whenever one chooses, within what should be the very limited bounds prescribed by law.

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque actually etch American values so deeply into the landscape of New York City, a landscape marred by the 9/11 terrorists.

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque miraculously transform the pain caused by Mohammed Atta and his co-conspirators into American power.

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque join the churches and synagogues and temples that stand as testimony to our faith in a G-d who teaches us to worship those forces and faces of love that will always and forever be infinitely greater than intolerance and hatred.

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could we as Catholic and Mormon and Protestant and Jewish and Buddhist Americans own stock in the soul of a mosque by simply offering no resistance to its existence.

What could be easier? What could be more simple and beautiful?

A mosque near Ground Zero will be G-d’s gym, wherein the muscles of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness develop not through an opposition of forces, but through accepting the greatest force in our universe.

So let the building begin.

I only hope that Americans of every faith will be contributors and visitors and that the workings of evil will be turned thereby upon themselves, transmuted into compassion by the rare alchemy possible in America.

Dr. Keith Ablow is a psychiatry correspondent for Fox News Channel and a New York Times bestselling author. His book, “Living the Truth: Transform Your Life Through the Power of Insight and Honesty” has launched a new self-help movement including www.livingthetruth.com. Dr. Ablow can be reached at [email protected].

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Shows that the "founding principles" of America are ill-equipped to deal with the 21st century threat of directly confrontational Islam.

[muman613]

Whoever wrote this must be on some very mind altering drugs.... I cannot agree with a single thing that was written... Very sad statement and very inconsiderate of the feelings of those who are still victimized to this day by what happened 10 years ago.

For example this:

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque join the churches and synagogues and temples that stand as testimony to our faith in a G-d who teaches us to worship those forces and faces of love that will always and forever be infinitely greater than intolerance and hatred.

Seriously deranged thinking, in my opinion... 'Those forces and faces of love'... This is sickening...

[MassuhDGoodName]

Here are this kapo's credentials as listed at the bottom of his op-ed:

Dr. Keith Ablow is a psychiatry correspondent for Fox News Channel and a New York Times bestselling author. His book, “Living the Truth: Transform Your Life Through the Power of Insight and Honesty” has launched a new self-help movement including www.livingthetruth.com. Dr. Ablow can be reached at [email protected].

ANYONE WHO WOULD LISTEN TO A PSYCHIATRIST NEEDS TO HAVE THEIR HEAD EXAMINED!

WHAT A FRAUD!   SICK BEYOND BELIEF!

WILLING TO BETRAY HIS ENTIRE NATION AND USE HIS FIENDISHNESS TO SELL BOOKS FULL OF LIES.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here are this kapo's credentials as listed at the bottom of his op-ed:

Dr. Keith Ablow is a psychiatry correspondent for Fox News Channel and a New York Times bestselling author. His book, “Living the Truth: Transform Your Life Through the Power of Insight and Honesty” has launched a new self-help movement including www.livingthetruth.com. Dr. Ablow can be reached at [email protected].

ANYONE WHO WOULD LISTEN TO A PSYCHIATRIST NEEDS TO HAVE THEIR HEAD EXAMINED!

WHAT A FRAUD!   SICK BEYOND BELIEF!

WILLING TO BETRAY HIS ENTIRE NATION AND USE HIS FIENDISHNESS TO SELL BOOKS FULL OF LIES.

Can you explain what about his description of American principles is flawed?

Afterall, the Constitution is the law of the land.


Just as a disclaimer, to be clear, I personally DO NOT agree with his view of the mosque (obviously).

[TheCoon]

Whoever wrote this must be on some very mind altering drugs.... I cannot agree with a single thing that was written... Very sad statement and very inconsiderate of the feelings of those who are still victimized to this day by what happened 10 years ago.

For example this:

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque join the churches and synagogues and temples that stand as testimony to our faith in a G-d who teaches us to worship those forces and faces of love that will always and forever be infinitely greater than intolerance and hatred.

Seriously deranged thinking, in my opinion... 'Those forces and faces of love'... This is sickening...

It really is an upside down world. We're seeing this more and more with people who are unable to see the evil around them. This clown is like a false prophet promoting love and peace simply to mask the truth that there is evil in the world(Islam) that wants to harm us. The Devil's greatest success was making us believe he doesn't exist.

[muman613]

Whoever wrote this must be on some very mind altering drugs.... I cannot agree with a single thing that was written... Very sad statement and very inconsiderate of the feelings of those who are still victimized to this day by what happened 10 years ago.

For example this:

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque join the churches and synagogues and temples that stand as testimony to our faith in a G-d who teaches us to worship those forces and faces of love that will always and forever be infinitely greater than intolerance and hatred.

Seriously deranged thinking, in my opinion... 'Those forces and faces of love'... This is sickening...

It really is an upside down world. We're seeing this more and more with people who are unable to see the evil around them. This clown is like a false prophet promoting love and peace simply to mask the truth that there is evil in the world(Islam) that wants to harm us. The Devil's greatest success was making us believe he doesn't exist.

You realize Jews don't believe in the devil, don't you? Hashem, the ONE AND ONLY G-D creates both good and evil. The Satan is simply the prosecutor of people and he works through the evil inclination. This inclination is in every human, but it is simply a side-effect of the nature of man which Hashem created called free-will. HaSutton has ways to block us, but this comes from within. Those who are evil are not controlled by Sutton, but they have lost their direction and no longer know what is right and wrong. I always dislike the term 'devil' because it is not a Jewish concept.... HaSutton makes absolute sense in light of the Jewish believe that HASHEM IS ONE and there is NO OTHER...

[david1967]

FoxNews corporation is actually a sham.  It pretends to be right-wing, but it's majority owned and controlled by the Saudis.  They go with the Conservative content, to a certain point, for ratings.  However, you will never, ever hear Saudi Arabia criticized, nor any mention of Wahabi Islam.

[Yaacov Ben Yehuda]

Whoever wrote this must be on some very mind altering drugs.... I cannot agree with a single thing that was written... Very sad statement and very inconsiderate of the feelings of those who are still victimized to this day by what happened 10 years ago.

For example this:

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque join the churches and synagogues and temples that stand as testimony to our faith in a G-d who teaches us to worship those forces and faces of love that will always and forever be infinitely greater than intolerance and hatred.

Seriously deranged thinking, in my opinion... 'Those forces and faces of love'... This is sickening...

It really is an upside down world. We're seeing this more and more with people who are unable to see the evil around them. This clown is like a false prophet promoting love and peace simply to mask the truth that there is evil in the world(Islam) that wants to harm us. The Devil's greatest success was making us believe he doesn't exist.

You realize Jews don't believe in the devil, don't you? Hashem, the ONE AND ONLY G-D creates both good and evil. The Satan is simply the prosecutor of people and he works through the evil inclination. This inclination is in every human, but it is simply a side-effect of the nature of man which Hashem created called free-will. HaSutton has ways to block us, but this comes from within. Those who are evil are not controlled by Sutton, but they have lost their direction and no longer know what is right and wrong. I always dislike the term 'devil' because it is not a Jewish concept.... HaSutton makes absolute sense in light of the Jewish believe that HASHEM IS ONE and there is NO OTHER...

Interesting points you make, just wondering how you would explain the concept of a Dibook (demonic possesions)?

[nessuno]

A mosque near Ground Zero will be G-d’s gym, wherein the muscles of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness develop not through an opposition of forces, but through accepting the greatest force in our universe.

  What?  What drivel.  
He's crazy!  He should set up an office appointment for himself...with himself. 
I think he should stop giving out life advice.  He should immediately self apply a straight jacket and duct tape.   

[muman613]

Whoever wrote this must be on some very mind altering drugs.... I cannot agree with a single thing that was written... Very sad statement and very inconsiderate of the feelings of those who are still victimized to this day by what happened 10 years ago.

For example this:

Nowhere but near Ground Zero could a mosque join the churches and synagogues and temples that stand as testimony to our faith in a G-d who teaches us to worship those forces and faces of love that will always and forever be infinitely greater than intolerance and hatred.

Seriously deranged thinking, in my opinion... 'Those forces and faces of love'... This is sickening...

It really is an upside down world. We're seeing this more and more with people who are unable to see the evil around them. This clown is like a false prophet promoting love and peace simply to mask the truth that there is evil in the world(Islam) that wants to harm us. The Devil's greatest success was making us believe he doesn't exist.

You realize Jews don't believe in the devil, don't you? Hashem, the ONE AND ONLY G-D creates both good and evil. The Satan is simply the prosecutor of people and he works through the evil inclination. This inclination is in every human, but it is simply a side-effect of the nature of man which Hashem created called free-will. HaSutton has ways to block us, but this comes from within. Those who are evil are not controlled by Sutton, but they have lost their direction and no longer know what is right and wrong. I always dislike the term 'devil' because it is not a Jewish concept.... HaSutton makes absolute sense in light of the Jewish believe that HASHEM IS ONE and there is NO OTHER...

Interesting points you make, just wondering how you would explain the concept of a Dibook (demonic possesions)?

Yes there is a concept that demons can posses the soul. But this is another topic and not related to any devil or power aside from Hashem. Judaism clearly is monotheistic and abhores any dualism. Hashem created the Satan and gave him the power to prosecute and to oppose human endeavors. How the Satan accomplishes this may be through the use of demons {angels who create confusion and darkness}...

Let me find some explanation of the phenomenon of Dibbuks..

http://www.jewishmag.com/144mag/superstition_magic/superstition_magic.htm
According to some rabbinic sources, the demons were believed to be under the authority the king of the nether world, either Asmodai or, in the older Haggadah, Samael ("the angel of death"), who kills by his deadly poison. Occasionally in Jewish texts a demon is called "Satan":" The reality of demons was never questioned by the Talmudists and the late rabbis; most accepted their existence as a fact. Even did most of the medieval Jewish scholars question their reality; demons were still dreaded in medieval Jewish folklore, as documented in the 13th century Sefer Hasidim..

Note: According to Rabbinical theologians there were three types of demons – Shedim (devils) the Mazzikim (harmers), and the Ruah ("spirits"). And there a host of other minor demons and spirits written in the Talmud; the evil creatures that caused migraines (Ruah Palga – Gittim 68b), the demon Ketev mention in the Psalms 91-6 and Deut. 32-24 is responsible for intestinal diseases, especially in the summer months, RuahTazzazit attacks animals and causes rabies and other convulsions (Yoma 83b), and etc…

Demons and evil spirits were thought by the superstitious to quite innumerable. "There numbers outweigh the number of humans on earth. If men were able to see them, none could stand the sight." (Berakhot 6a).

Whereas the names of angels that have magical apotropaic properties frequently appear on amulets, magical inscriptions and formula. In the bedtime ritual Kriat Sh'ma al ha-Mitah, the angels Michael, Gabriel, Uriel and Raphael are invoked for protection through the night.

http://pantheon.org/articles/d/demons.html

Demons
by Rabbi Geoffrey W. Dennis

Demons are spirits that act malevolently against human beings. The Bible makes repeated mention of evil spirits (Lev. 16: 10; I Sam. 16:14-16; Isa. 34:14), including satyrs and night demons, but does not provide a great deal of detail. More elaborate stories about demons appear during the Greco-Roman period.

The existence of demons, while widely accepted, has always presented a theological difficulty. Since all things are ultimately the creation of the one G-d, the question of why should evil spirits exist has greatly exercised Jewish thought. Apocalyptic literature offers the first attempt to explain their existence in a monotheistic context by claiming demons are really fallen angels. Rabbinic literature provides the first extensive source for Jewish demonology, though the information is scattered though many sources. In it, several explanations for the existence of demons are offered. They are a creation of the twilight of the sixth day (Pirkei Avot 5.6). Abraham ibn Ezra described demons as a product of the interaction of sunlight with smoke and vapor which then clings to the body, causing illness (Sefer ha-Atzmim).

Demons cannot procreate on their own, so they used semen from Adam in order to make more of their own kind (B.T. Ervuin 18b; Zohar). An elaboration on this tradition is that Lilith, the first woman, having transformed herself into a witch-demon using the Tetragrammaton, takes the nocturnal emissions of men she seduces to procreate more demons (Alef-Bet ben Sira). In kabbalistic thought the demonic is a necessary part of creation, a product of the sitra achra, the "other side" of the divine emanations in the material universe.

Demons occupy an intermediate place between mortals and angels. According to Chagigah 16a, they resemble angels in three ways: They have wings, they can fly throughout the universe, and they hear what transpires in heaven. They also resemble mortals in that they procreate, eat, and die. They are always invisible, except under special conditions.

The malevolent effects of demons are many: they cause illness and death, especially for the vulnerable (children, women in childbirth); they trouble and deceive the mind, and cause contention in the community of mortals.

Tractate Berachot has perhaps the most information on demons of any part of the Talmud. There we learn that demons tend to dwell in the wilderness, in ruins, and in other places not by frequented by people (Isa. 13:21). It also describes a "diagnostic" ritual for detecting the presence of the demonic: Ashes spread around one's bed at nighttime will reveal demon tracks in the morning, and demons can be rendered visible by grinding up the ashes of a black cat's afterbirth and then sprinkle the powder in one's eyes.

The appearance of demons varies, but is always terrible. In keeping with Ancient Near Eastern beliefs about evil spirits, demons have bird talons for feet in addition to wings. At night, demons can appear in human form (Meg. 3a).

Demonic power waxes and wanes according to the time of day, the week, the seasons, meteorological conditions, topographical features, and other natural factors (Yalkut Chadash, Keshafim 56; Numbers R. 12:3; Pes. 3a-b, 112a; Shab. 67a). The informed can use this information to minimize their threat.

Around human habitations, they frequent rooftops, outhouses, and drainage gutters. Strangely, demonic forces are attracted to synagogues. The Angel of Death, for example, is said to keep his tools there. Stories of Sages doing night battles with demons in the synagogue appear in Jewish tales across time.

Prominent demons have names, usually derived from their particular power; Reshef, for example, means "pestilence." Some demons, like Samael, have theophonic names, like angels. Occasionally demons can have surprisingly mundane names, like "Joseph." The name Lilith means either "air" (Akkadian) or "night" (Hebrew) and has its roots in Mesopotamian aerial spirits called "lilu."

Reciting certain psalms has an atropopaic effect against evil spirits (Pss. 29: 91; 121), as do other key verses of Scripture (Num. 7:4-6). Magical phrases have also been recorded to combat their malevolent effects (Pes. 100a; 112a). The bells on the skirt of the High Priest evidently drove them away. Drinking water only from white containers turns away night demons (Pesachim 3a). Bercahot 5a credits ritual objects such as mezuzah, tefillin, and ritual fringes with warding off evil spirits. The Jews of Mesopotamia additionally protected their homes with Demon Bowls and Incantation Bowls. Temporary protection can be gotten through the use of magic circles. Amulets of near infinite variety have been created across Jewish history. Demons can be bribed with food or money, or frightened off with shofar blasts, unpleasant smells, or spitting. Guardian angels are the best defense, and are acquired every time one performs a mitzvah (Ex. R. 32).

Intriguingly, a mortal can work beneficently with demons, if one knows the rituals of power to control them. Asmodeus, the king of Demons, was co-opted by Solomon to good ends. Demons can be turned against other demons (Lev. R. 24). Sometimes the demon will do so willingly (Pes. 106a), but usually this involves controlling the demons magically and forcing the captured spirit to do the will of the adept. R. Eliezer of Metz (12th Century), permitted the use of demons in spells and amulets, writing, "Invoking the demons to do one's will is permitted" for what difference is there between invoking demons and angels?" At the same time, anything that smacks of demon veneration or worship, such as making offerings or burning incense to a demon, is expressly forbidden (Sanh. 65b).

http://vbm-torah.org/archive/ramban/08ramban.htm
It is clear from this quote that azazel is Samael, who is the "accuser" of Israel; in other words, the satan. The Ramban goes on to explain.

See, they have told his name and his actions. And this is the secret of the matter. For they used to worship other gods, who are the angels, offering them sacrifices which are for them a sweet savor (rei'ach nicho'ach)…. Now the Torah totally prohibited the acceptance of their divinity or any worship of them, but God commanded that on Yom Kippur we send a goat to the desert to the prince who rules in desolate places, which is appropriate as he is the master of (that place), and from the emanation of his strength comes destruction and desolation, for he is the cause of the stars of the sword and blood and wars and quarrels and wounds and plagues and division and destruction, and, in general, the soul of the sphere of Mars. And his portion among the nations is Eisav, who is the nation who inherits the sword and wars. And among the animals, (his portion is) the goat, and in his portion are also the demons who are called mazikim in the language of the Rabbis, and se'irim in the language of Scripture, for both he and his nation are called se'ir (= goat, demon, and another name for Edom, the land of Eisav).

The Ramban is describing here a picture of evil – the forces of strife, desolation and destruction – that ascribes to it metaphysical reality. The gods of the nations are also real, and identified with angels, who are princes of different areas of the world. One of those angels, the prince of Eisav and the "soul" of Mars, is the source of the power of evil in the world.

The figure of Samael as an angel of God whose job is to be the "accuser," a sort of prosecuting attorney in the court of God, is familiar from rabbinic literature. But the association of the satan with the forces of evil, of war and destruction, is new with the Ramban. The Ramban here combines astrology (the star of Mars as the source of bloodshed) with demonology and with the traditional Jewish political dichotomy (Yaacov and Eisav), and puts it in a package of angels, divine beings who are in fact the gods of the nations. In so doing, the Ramban confers reality on idolatry, claiming that the nations worship real and powerful beings. What is even more striking, he confers reality on evil, a force with its own dominion (the desert) and celestial power (Mars) and guardian angel (Samael).
 

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Tractate Berachot has perhaps the most information on demons of any part of the Talmud. There we learn that demons tend to dwell in the wilderness, in ruins, and in other places not by frequented by people (Isa. 13:21). It also describes a "diagnostic" ritual for detecting the presence of the demonic: Ashes spread around one's bed at nighttime will reveal demon tracks in the morning, and demons can be rendered visible by grinding up the ashes of a black cat's afterbirth and then sprinkle the powder in one's eyes. "

There is much in Talmud which can only be considered attempts by brilliantly intelligent men to explain mysteries yet to be revealed by science.

Today such writings as above appear to be the ultimate in primitive ignorance to most anyone other than Taliban and or Haitian practitioners of Voodoo.

There is no way anyone is ever going to convince me that grinding up the ashes of a black cat's afterbirth and sprinkling the powder in my eyes in order to see demons is the Oral Torah revealed directly by Ha'Shem to Moses along with the written Torah.

Sheer nonsense and superstition is what such things are, and they should not be presented in print without proper notation fully explaining the day and age during which they were composed and believed.

I stand firmly behind my opinion about these obsolete superstitions.

Jews are always telling everyone about how rational and intellectual we Jews are as a result of our beliefs and practices, but 'a lot of water has passed under the bridge' since the days when Torah scholars searched for demon's tracks in ashes sprinkled around their beds, and I will reiterate here what I have written on the forum several times:

The lifestyles and mentality of the Taliban of Afghanistan are a good example to study if one wants a glimpse of the mentality and lifestyle of the Jews who lived in ancient times.

Of course, the usual fools will immediately attack me with one of their inanities like "How DARE YOU mention Jews/Torah/Talmud in the same sentence with Islam/Taliban" but it is they who mistake modern Judaism; even that of modern day Ultra-Orthodoxy, as being equal in every way to the Judaism which once existed.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

If you're going to snicker at Catholic Priests who once burned Jews at the stake and who still practice Exorcism of Demons, then don't get in my face for rejecting the exact same type of ideas and beliefs once put forth by Torah Priests as "The Oral Torah Which None Dare Question!"

[muman613]

I do believe that demons exist but we know a lot more about how to deal with the results of their work. Sicknesses and other ailments can be cured with modern science. There is no need to resort to old and inefficient ways of dealing with these things. But I don't suggest that one not deal with the spiritual underpinning of all suffering. Hashem sends suffering to the world in order to wake people up to underlying problems in the spiritual world.

Obviously Massuh is one who only sees what his eyes see, and thus it seems he misses the spiritual world. Instead it seems in many messages he only reads that Judaism is like the Taliban or compares it to Christianity which is something which should not really be done without trying to understand what the Talmud is trying to teach us.

Maybe I have not done the topic justice in the small quotations I have provided. But I will leave it up to those who have the intellectual capacity to learn lessons from topics which on the surface seem sometimes silly in todays world. The lessons are deeper than they seem upon first reading.

For more information about this Tractate in Talmud see:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:2wUQdwhYaJYJ:daf-yomi.org/english_dafyomi/brochos/Brochos_6.pdf+black+cats+placenta&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiLsNjg-2ZdGcFuJLB4ELu6Ck7FqT1GxbaZOQMM0pBxLRG-TLzJy5q6gu9Po-6k3wXzgUIgJjhHjPMaOZ6_AehuhEdVupyNOZ8Hc1V17e3Jr7_MAAzMTAHGRa2QFzdEBD9jrJF-&sig=AHIEtbQvKLB6PUwyeit53TatFSpIuCyGPQ

[muman613]

Also see this discussion to put these beliefs in the proper light:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:_g95fgn6z4UJ:www.rashiyomi.com/evileye.pdf+%22black+cat%22+demons&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgXDjjCA5gX36IXesBVwNlQcBiHfGeOQR9pa2HXtSlrfMPuh6u4tL7mgdjUO3zCLS8vkWTchZ-c1Y7OJCLgdwk89c0FI8ez7Tpm6I6Hzf_wMh7MprUgC-3mU5uhlff7ebn_jtWZ&sig=AHIEtbR6M96ZiVTJQ7UIx-fTGWlG6UVPTw

Section I - Introduction: The Evil Eye

A cornerstone of the monotheistic belief of Judaism is the denial of idolatry and superstition.1 Judaism advocates that its adherents walk simply with God2 -- their life should be based on moral ideals and reason. Demons, charms and spells have no place in ones considerations.3

It therefore comes as a surprise to the religious Jew when certain laws appear to be based on the supernatural. A simple example will suffice -- the following may be found in the code of Jewish law:

It is prohibited to give two brothers (or a father and son) consecutive Aliyahs (calling to the Torah) since we fear that this might invite the evil eye.4

This is certainly perplexing! First it is counterintuitive -- the religious Jew does not expect concepts like evil eye to enter into his required practices. This law however, also seems contrary to the Biblical law against superstition. Compare the following citation:

It is Biblically prohibited to divine. What is an example of divination: A person who says: A black cat crossed my path; therefore I will not embark on a new business deal.5

What indeed, is the difference between abstaining from a business deal because of the black cat that passed my path versus the person who abstains from receiving an Aliyah because his brother just received the last aliyah.

Aren’t these abstentions one and the same? Why is one classified as Biblically prohibited while the other is rabbinically required? It seems that we must clarify more than an intuition here--we must clarify the actual source of prohibition. Our goal in this short essay is to rationally explain the concept of the evil eye in a manner consistent with the rest of Jewish law and Biblical language.

PS: I should also point out that Rambam did not believe in Demons... It is not a required belief of Judaism since the primary goal of Judaism is to bring Jews close to Hashem.... Hashem is the ONE we should cling to...

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/ask/eng/?id=2018

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You realize Jews don't believe in the devil, don't you? Hashem, the ONE AND ONLY G-D creates both good and evil. The Satan is simply the prosecutor of people and he works through the evil inclination. This inclination is in every human, but it is simply a side-effect of the nature of man which Hashem created called free-will. HaSutton has ways to block us, but this comes from within. Those who are evil are not controlled by Sutton, but they have lost their direction and no longer know what is right and wrong. I always dislike the term 'devil' because it is not a Jewish concept.... HaSutton makes absolute sense in light of the Jewish believe that HASHEM IS ONE and there is NO OTHER...

Interesting points you make, just wondering how you would explain the concept of a Dibook (demonic possesions)?

Aside from the fact that I have no reason to believe dibukim actually exist, the subject has nothing to do with what Muman wrote anyway.    It's something different.

[MassuhDGoodName]

I KNOW that the Devil exists, because I went to see Jerry Lee Lewis!        

[muman613]

You realize Jews don't believe in the devil, don't you? Hashem, the ONE AND ONLY G-D creates both good and evil. The Satan is simply the prosecutor of people and he works through the evil inclination. This inclination is in every human, but it is simply a side-effect of the nature of man which Hashem created called free-will. HaSutton has ways to block us, but this comes from within. Those who are evil are not controlled by Sutton, but they have lost their direction and no longer know what is right and wrong. I always dislike the term 'devil' because it is not a Jewish concept.... HaSutton makes absolute sense in light of the Jewish believe that HASHEM IS ONE and there is NO OTHER...

Interesting points you make, just wondering how you would explain the concept of a Dibook (demonic possesions)?

Aside from the fact that I have no reason to believe dibukim actually exist, the subject has nothing to do with what Muman wrote anyway.    It's something different.

Yes, it seems I have strayed from the original discussion. The concept of demons and angels is very complex to try to explain. Dibbuks are, according to legend, a demon possession of a human body... I don't know if this occurs except for cases of mental incapacitation....

But I do believe in angels and in demons, as forces through which Hashem accomplishes his will in the physical world...

[muman613]

I KNOW that the Devil exists, because I went to see Jerry Lee Lewis!        

Great Balls of Fire!

[MassuhDGoodName]

There's a JEWISH DEVIL too!

His name is Jerry Lipschitz Lewis!         

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "I should also point out that Rambam did not believe in Demons. "

That's 'cause he never got a chance to watch The Exorcist starring Linda Blair!     

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "Tractate Berachot has perhaps the most information on demons of any part of the Talmud. There we learn that demons tend to dwell in the wilderness, in ruins, and in other places not by frequented by people (Isa. 13:21). It also describes a "diagnostic" ritual for detecting the presence of the demonic: Ashes spread around one's bed at nighttime will reveal demon tracks in the morning, and demons can be rendered visible by grinding up the ashes of a black cat's afterbirth and then sprinkle the powder in one's eyes. "

There is much in Talmud which can only be considered attempts by brilliantly intelligent men to explain mysteries yet to be revealed by science.

Today such writings as above appear to be the ultimate in primitive ignorance to most anyone other than Taliban and or Haitian practitioners of Voodoo.

There is no way anyone is ever going to convince me that grinding up the ashes of a black cat's afterbirth and sprinkling the powder in my eyes in order to see demons is the Oral Torah revealed directly by Ha'Shem to Moses along with the written Torah. 

The "science" (anachronistic word to use, but I mean what posed as science as that time) of that day asserted that demons existed and this was common "knowledge" or accepted fact in medieval times.  I don't believe it's true, and such "science" has since been rejected, possibly disproven or at least shown to have no empirical evidence behind it, and there is no reason one must insist that it is true in our day.  Despite Muman's good intentions - very good intentions indeed - posting about these things on this forum is an exercise in futility, imo.   So is believing in them.

As to the second part of your comment, ie

"...in order to see demons is the Oral Torah revealed directly by Ha'Shem to Moses along with the written Torah."

No one makes such a claim.   Even if they do believe in demons, you're making a very oversimplified description.

Sheer nonsense and superstition is what such things are, and they should not be presented in print without proper notation fully explaining the day and age during which they were composed and believed.

I stand firmly behind my opinion about these obsolete superstitions. 

Good point.  In a forum such as this, I would refrain from posting it at all.  Generally people here don't come from backgrounds where any such things will make sense to us.

Jews are always telling everyone about how rational and intellectual we Jews are as a result of our beliefs and practices, but 'a lot of water has passed under the bridge' since the days when Torah scholars searched for demon's tracks in ashes sprinkled around their beds, and I will reiterate here what I have written on the forum several times:

The lifestyles and mentality of the Taliban of Afghanistan are a good example to study if one wants a glimpse of the mentality and lifestyle of the Jews who lived in ancient times. 

Once again you're jumping to conclusions.  (You've tried to make this parallel before on the forum).  The Taliban of today are behind the entire world in terms of humanity, compassion, human decency, civilized behavior.  That was not true of the Jews in ancient times or in Talmudic times.  The Jewish ethical spirit and behavior was advanced compared to the cultures in which they emerged and lived nearby.   So how do you compare the "culturally retarded" taliban of our day to the Talmudic Jews of their time and place, or the ancient Biblical Jews in their own time in place who were more advanced than the surrounding cultures?

When you mention Taliban, you invoke (intentionally or not) the worst human behaviors they exhibit including cutting off limbs and humping goats, drug trade, boy prostitution, etc.   These were not behaviors exhibited or celebrated by the ancient Jews, so invariably when you make comparisons to "Taliban mentality" people are going to react with disbelief.  Because it's not an accurate comparison unless you're more specific than just "taliban mentality."    What aspect of their mentality?  What specific behavior?   What part of their "lifestyle?"

Of course, the usual fools will immediately attack me with one of their inanities like "How DARE YOU mention Jews/Torah/Talmud in the same sentence with Islam/Taliban" but it is they who mistake modern Judaism; even that of modern day Ultra-Orthodoxy, as being equal in every way to the Judaism which once existed. 

I'm all for preempting thoughtless responses, but there is no need to play victim.


Do Taliban believe in demons?  And how is that relevant to the topic at hand?    Some modern day ultra-orthodox Jews do believe in them, and some don't.   What difference does that make that the belief was common and widespread in the past and so belief in such ideas were more common?  That doesn't change the essence of the religion or the values of the people worshipping it.    Demons are an irrelevant issue.

If you're going to snicker at Catholic Priests who once burned Jews at the stake and who still practice Exorcism of Demons, then don't get in my face for rejecting the exact same type of ideas and beliefs once put forth by Torah Priests as "The Oral Torah Which None Dare Question!" 

Again stop playing victim, nobody said anything to you.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Keith Ablow can .... me.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Obviously Massuh is one who only sees what his eyes see, and thus it seems he misses the spiritual world. "

Things aren't always as they seem .

In Africa they know for a fact that only when they hunt down albino schwartzes and hack them up with machetes to make magic bone amulets can they force out the evil juju spirit magic.

Too bad they don't wise up and just machete up some black cat placenta instead!

Accept no imitations!

Choose only Black Cat Brand Chopped Up and Burned Cat Placenta!  Guaranteed Kosher!

Just sprinkle a little of its ashes into both eyes and behold the demons of the spirit world which "Massuh" always seems to miss!

Always the Choice of Champion Demon Watching Talmudic Scholars!

Find it NOW!  At a gutter, outhouse, abandoned building, or field in the wilderness near YOU!

[Yaacov Ben Yehuda]

You realize Jews don't believe in the devil, don't you? Hashem, the ONE AND ONLY G-D creates both good and evil. The Satan is simply the prosecutor of people and he works through the evil inclination. This inclination is in every human, but it is simply a side-effect of the nature of man which Hashem created called free-will. HaSutton has ways to block us, but this comes from within. Those who are evil are not controlled by Sutton, but they have lost their direction and no longer know what is right and wrong. I always dislike the term 'devil' because it is not a Jewish concept.... HaSutton makes absolute sense in light of the Jewish believe that HASHEM IS ONE and there is NO OTHER...

Interesting points you make, just wondering how you would explain the concept of a Dibook (demonic possesions)?

Aside from the fact that I have no reason to believe dibukim actually exist, the subject has nothing to do with what Muman wrote anyway.    It's something different.

Yes, it seems I have strayed from the original discussion. The concept of demons and angels is very complex to try to explain. Dibbuks are, according to legend, a demon possession of a human body... I don't know if this occurs except for cases of mental incapacitation....

But I do believe in angels and in demons, as forces through which Hashem accomplishes his will in the physical world...

Yes I agree with your position on this topic of demons.  I can tell you that I have had personal encounters with demons, or demonic forces/energy.  I have battled a night demon numerous times while in a semi concious sleep.  It was real and it was intensely scary.  I have since embraced Hashem stronger then before, and put tefillin on, pray, do mitzvot, etc. and B"A no more demonic visits.

We simply can not comprehend what we can not see with our own eyes, but I beleive that we are surrounded with negative spiritual energy all around us, and I think that the human brain can be infected with these negative forces.  Just because it's hard to grasp and comprehend does not mean it doesn't exist.  

In the Tanach there are many descriptions of evil spirits controlling man's behaviour.  King Saul being a great example of a man controlled by evil spirits or demons.

[muman613]

You realize Jews don't believe in the devil, don't you? Hashem, the ONE AND ONLY G-D creates both good and evil. The Satan is simply the prosecutor of people and he works through the evil inclination. This inclination is in every human, but it is simply a side-effect of the nature of man which Hashem created called free-will. HaSutton has ways to block us, but this comes from within. Those who are evil are not controlled by Sutton, but they have lost their direction and no longer know what is right and wrong. I always dislike the term 'devil' because it is not a Jewish concept.... HaSutton makes absolute sense in light of the Jewish believe that HASHEM IS ONE and there is NO OTHER...

Interesting points you make, just wondering how you would explain the concept of a Dibook (demonic possesions)?

Aside from the fact that I have no reason to believe dibukim actually exist, the subject has nothing to do with what Muman wrote anyway.    It's something different.

Yes, it seems I have strayed from the original discussion. The concept of demons and angels is very complex to try to explain. Dibbuks are, according to legend, a demon possession of a human body... I don't know if this occurs except for cases of mental incapacitation....

But I do believe in angels and in demons, as forces through which Hashem accomplishes his will in the physical world...

Yes I agree with your position on this topic of demons.  I can tell you that I have had personal encounters with demons, or demonic forces/energy.  I have battled a night demon numerous times while in a semi concious sleep.  It was real and it was intensely scary.  I have since embraced Hashem stronger then before, and put tefillin on, pray, do mitzvot, etc. and B"A no more demonic visits.

We simply can not comprehend what we can not see with our own eyes, but I beleive that we are surrounded with negative spiritual energy all around us, and I think that the human brain can be infected with these negative forces.  Just because it's hard to grasp and comprehend does not mean it doesn't exist.  

In the Tanach there are many descriptions of evil spirits controlling man's behaviour.  King Saul being a great example of a man controlled by evil spirits or demons.

Shalom Yaakov,

It is great that you have been able to remove these demons from your life... May Hashems blessing be with you at all times..