Author Topic: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT  (Read 16007 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #125 on: September 21, 2010, 11:32:56 AM »
I have nothing against Catholics at all.  I do have anger towards the Church and their coverup of the horrific molestations, but so does any reasonable person.

Ron does NOT represent what others think here.  Masterwolf, you should know that.  Just ignore him.  No one else is really ganging up on you, its just one very angry kid.... who cares, just ignore him, like all of us do.

I apologize if enough of us aren't standing up for you and your faith.  I have been so busy as of late, but I will do what I can to help you out.  The intolerance of Ron is very hurtful to our movement, but the rest of us don't think like he does.  I think most American catholics are VERY good people.  With the exception of the Illegals from Latin America, the others are often very decent, and mostly righteous.  This is not something I believed when I was younger, but not that I have come into more contact with catholics, I've certainly changed my mind.  As far as things that happened in the past, that has nothing to do with you.

Offline TheCoon

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2081
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #126 on: September 21, 2010, 11:36:56 AM »
Kahane, both Julius and Augustus Caesar allowed the Jews to practice Judaism and synagogues enjoyed special status where they could request taxation from Jews for upkeep. Jews in Judaea were allowed the same treatment for the most part. This was during the time of Christ. Roman attitudes towards Jews changed far more negatively over time as famine and terrible Roman governance took over and that lead eventually to rebellion and the destruction of the Temple. After that, Rome sought to violently control Judaism.

I'll see if I can find sources, but this is how I know the history. Obviously for most of Jewish/Roman history, Rome was very hostile to the Jews but at the beginning for a short time there was some favorable treatment towards Jews, notably around the first annexing of Judaea.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #127 on: September 21, 2010, 11:47:00 AM »
what?

uggggh, about what? show me where he sat on the board, he didn't, he was a carpenter.
Being a Pharisee had nothing to do with your employment. It meant belonging to a specific school of philosophy in Judaism.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #128 on: September 21, 2010, 11:48:42 AM »
Your catholic church and patents probably taught proper Christianity and it shows. I know Catholics and other "christians" who were taught what muman stated.




Let us just agree that the church has a history which needs to be forgiven.


No offense Muman, but I resent this statement, that I find surprisingly anti-Jewish by the way : no, the horrible crimes committed by people who claimed to represent catholicism although they were acting in contradiction with what Jesus taught, must NOT be forgiven.
This does not mean that I resent Catholics in general for what some of them did in the past. Personally, if it wasn't for a Catholic priest, I wouldn't be alive today. My grandfather was hidden and cared for by a Catholic priest during WWII. So I know what "righteous Gentile" means and I have the highest respect for righteous Gentiles.

There is nothing anti-Jewish in what I said. I said that the Church needs to ask for our forgiveness, apologize for its evil ways, and remove the offensive sections which inspired so much anti-semitism. I have seen that the NT is full of anti-semitic contents. The Jews are called sons of devils, amongst other things. When I was young I had a school-mate who told me because I was Jewish I was going to hell, my mom was told that she had horns when she was a child... The antisemitism which is in the NT is disgusting...

As long as the church teaches the NT to its congregants there will be continued antisemitism.

I think this is not anti-Jewish, it is standing up for the Jewish people against the taught antisemitism of christianity..


I don't know what you are talking about, Muman.
I went to 8 years of Catholic school.  I never heard that Jews were going to hell and that they have horns.  :o  Stop spreading this disinformation.
My wonderful parents are the main reasons why I love the Jewish people and I am very pro Israel.  Still, the church did nothing to diminish my respect for the Jewish faith. 
You make a very good effort at it though.
See - that is why I can take Ron.  He doesn't pretend to be 'tolerant'...then come up with this divisive garbage.

Most Italian Catholics I know get along very well with Jewish people.  We have strong family and religious values in common. 
 >:(
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #129 on: September 21, 2010, 11:49:10 AM »
Kahane, both Julius and Augustus Caesar allowed the Jews to practice Judaism and synagogues enjoyed special status where they could request taxation from Jews for upkeep. 

How benevolent of them!  Do realize that before foreign occupation showed up, Jews practiced in their synagogues freely because that is the Jewish culture and the normal situation under Jewish self-rule (long before Christians even existed yet).   

Wow, and they even gave us the privilege to be taxed!   What the...


But there's something obviously incorrect about your "history."

Gaius Julius Caesar (13 July 100 B.C.E. – 15 March 44 B.C.E.)

Something obviously doesn't add up here.     Are you claiming there were Christians before Jesus lived?

Btw, if they tried to torch all synagogues to the ground, there would have been open revolt, which the Romans did NOT want and did not have the resources for (or at least not willing to devote them to that).   And indeed, when things got more hostile and they burnt down the Temple, there was an open revolt!

Quote
Jews in Judaea were allowed the same treatment for the most part. 
  Same treatment as what?  As other conquered groups?    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.


« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 11:54:25 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #130 on: September 21, 2010, 11:50:33 AM »
what?

uggggh, about what? show me where he sat on the board, he didn't, he was a carpenter.
Being a Pharisee had nothing to do with your employment. It meant belonging to a specific school of philosophy in Judaism.

Right, that's what I was referring to.   The philosophical allegiance (although obviously loyalty to the teachings didn't remain).   I don't think he was a Sadducee advocate or adherent, but maybe I'm wrong.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #131 on: September 21, 2010, 11:54:55 AM »
I don't think he was a Sadducee advocate or adherent, but maybe I'm wrong.
No, the Sadducees were the Deform Jews of the era if I understand correctly, they denied the literality of Torah and Jesus very much opposed them.

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #132 on: September 21, 2010, 12:00:01 PM »
Both Christians and Jews were treated poorly in Ancient Rome, but any historian knows that the Jews were treated slightly better, simply because the ancient Romans had more respect for older religions or idiologies and they truly saw Christianity as a threat.  But at any rate, Im not sure why this is all relevant.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #133 on: September 21, 2010, 12:07:17 PM »
Both Christians and Jews were treated poorly in Ancient Rome, but any historian knows that the Jews were treated slightly better, simply because the ancient Romans had more respect for older religions or idiologies and they truly saw Christianity as a threat.  But at any rate, Im not sure why this is all relevant.


Ok, then cite a historian.  I really don't understand this point of view.  Jews were the indigenous people whom the Romans conquered.   Naturally, they would have local leadership under Roman auspices.  But from what I understand, the Torah and its teachings were always viewed as a threat to Roman power - because they were.   This was true before and after Christians existed.

Offline TheCoon

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2081
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #134 on: September 21, 2010, 12:16:15 PM »
Kahane, both Julius and Augustus Caesar allowed the Jews to practice Judaism and synagogues enjoyed special status where they could request taxation from Jews for upkeep. 

How benevolent of them!  Do realize that before foreign occupation showed up, Jews practiced in their synagogues freely because that is the Jewish culture and the normal situation under Jewish self-rule (long before Christians even existed yet).   

Wow, and they even gave us the privilege to be taxed!   What the...


But there's something obviously incorrect about your "history."

Gaius Julius Caesar (13 July 100 B.C.E. – 15 March 44 B.C.E.)

Something obviously doesn't add up here.     Are you claiming there were Christians before Jesus lived?

Btw, if they tried to torch all synagogues to the ground, there would have been open revolt, which the Romans did NOT want and did not have the resources for (or at least not willing to devote them to that).   And indeed, when things got more hostile and they burnt down the Temple, there was an open revolt!

Quote
Jews in Judaea were allowed the same treatment for the most part. 
  Same treatment as what?  As other conquered groups?    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

You misunderstand the first point. The Jewish synagogues were able to tax their own people and keep the profits for temple upkeep and such, whereas other religions of the time under Roman rule had to give the tax to Rome.

I don't see how my timeline is off. Rome conquered Judaea in 63 BC, which falls during the reign of Gaius Julius Caesar(100-43). This has nothing to do with Christians and simply to do with the beginning of Jews under Roman rule. It merely shows that Jews observed some sort of special treatment.

The point is, at the beginning of Roman rule the Jews were treated better than other groups. This was obviously to maintain peace as opposed to any Roman benevolence for Jews.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #135 on: September 21, 2010, 12:17:18 PM »
Re:  "If, on the other hand, you are merely criticizing JTF as a whole without offering any solutions or any real way to improve it, I must say it appears a bit empty.   It's easy for a person to say, "you should have done better." or "I would do better if I was in charge."  It's much harder to say, "this is how things could be better if you did x, y, and z" and actually give ideas that you think would improve the situation.   I really hope it's the former and not the latter.  If so please share your ideas for improving JTF, with Chaim and/or with all of us. "

My ideas about JTF have long ago been known and long ago been shared.

Cognitive disassociative disorder in one or more forum posters is just one of the reasons that this forum doesn't need trolls in order to to remain constantly and regularly disrupted.

The most serious disruptions here on the forum are created not by nazi or muzzie trolls, but exist because of members who perceive non-existent or implied "threats" to their social standing, ranking, prestige, or emotional well being, whenever they encounter stimuli in the form of messages written or spoken by another forum member.

Some people can not read a simple sentence or converse with other individuals without "scrambling" inside their own minds the ideas or messages being transmitted to them, "believing" that they are being challenged or insulted, and then emotionally and illogically overreacting to what is in fact a neutral, if not benign communication.

Inside the minds of these type individuals, normal human thought processes have been replaced by a pre-recorded "loop" of self-deprecating negative messages which play over and over again, whenever stimulated by a written or oral communication.

Whether or not it's "genetic" in origin, it is a serious learning disorder.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Master JTFer
  • *
  • Posts: 1766
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #136 on: September 21, 2010, 12:40:13 PM »
France? The French always thought they were also high and mighty over anybody else.. They look down on their noses to this country and if it wasn't for the United States. France's main language would of been German.  The French had a history of sucking up to the Muslims, now they got their hands full with the Muslims but maybe that is how the schools in France is like or the Church,, but in this country no not at all.. I would challenge people like that in my own faith.  People confuse the actual teachings to what they make up in their own brains on how to think or say and it has nothing to do with the teachings.  Our teachings are told to love our neighbors the way you want them to love you.  With the French if you are bringing them up that is not the teaching that is France being it's usual arrogant France.

The subject is not France here, I don't care about France in this thread, your starting a rant against France is irrelevant. If you think the examples I mentioned happened just because they took place in France, you're wrong, they are representative of seeds of antisemitism that are deeply rooted in christianity and they could take place in any other predominantly Christian country, including Italy and the USA.

Offline Zelhar

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10689
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #137 on: September 21, 2010, 12:44:23 PM »
WITH THE ON GOING NON STOP CHRISTIAN AND CATHOLIC BASHING THAT HAS GONE HERE FOR A WHILE.. IF WE KEEP THIS UP WE WILL BE DIVIDED AND THIS HELPS NO ONE.. THERE IS ONE THING TO POINT SOMETHING OUT BUT EVERYONE HAS HAD THEIR FAULTS.  IF YOU ARE 100% PURE THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE ALIVE NOW WOULD YOU.. RON STOP CALLING EVERYONE YOU DISAGREE WITH NAZIS.. AND YES I AM CATHOLIC ARE YOU GOING TO REFER TO ME AS A NAZI? THAT WILL BE A GIANT MISTAKE ON YOUR PART BUBBA.  YOU GO OUT OF YOUR WAY TO NON STOP BASH EITHER CHRISTIANS, OR CATHOLICS OR WHAT EVER IS HAPPENING IN EUROPE.  BY DOING THIS IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU BECAME A DISGRUNTLED NUT.  YOU KEEP THIS GOING AND PEOPLE WILL TURN AWAY AND THAT IS ONLY HELPING ENEMIES OUT.  I AM FED UP OF PEOPLE SAYING EVERY PRIEST OF REV. IS A RAPIST PEDOPHILE, THAT IS COMPLETELY NOT TRUE .  YA KNOW RESPECT WORKS ON BOTH WAYS YOU WANT PEOPLE TO RESPECT YOU BUT YOU ARE NOT SHOWING RESPECT TO OTHERS. I AM FAR FROM P.C. BUT YOU CAN'T CONDEMN EVERYONE FOR A HAND FULL RIGHT? CAN I CONDEMN THE JEWISH FAITH OR JEWS IN GENERAL CAUSE WE HAVE LETS SAY A MAYOR IN THIS CITY HE IS JEWISH WHO IS HANDING A CITY WHERE MUSLIMS TO ATTACKED TO MUSLIMS? NO CAUSE THAT IS INSANITY TALK AND YOU GOT YOURSELF INSANITY TALK THERE YOURSELF.. WHO HERE CAN BE HELD WHAT HAPPEN 60 YEARS BACK? I WAS NOT BORN AT THE TIME, IT WAS THE WORST NIGHTMARE TO EVER HAPPENED NO ONE IS DENYING THAT. BUT YOU ARE RUNNING ALL AROUND THIS FORUM CALLING EVERYONE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH A NAZI AND PEOPLE ARE NOT TAKING TOO KIND TO THAT LABELING YOU ARE GIVING OUT.
I think JTF has a rather liberal policy regarding freedom of speech. One thing that shouldn't be here is personal attacks, and Masterwolf, honestly, I think your post was a little personal provocation directed at Ron. And moreover unless I'm mistakes, you accuse Ron of saying things he hadn't said about priest and catholics. Yea he said some offensive things about ALL Christians and Christianity but I actually don't thing he said stuff like "all priest are pedophiles".

Ron in turn, you have way overreacted with personal and stereotypical slurs against Masterwolf. I think you owe him an apology.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #138 on: September 21, 2010, 01:06:40 PM »
Historically, wasn't Jesus a Pharisee?


Also, it's not historically correct that the Pharisees were in league with the Romans.   The Romans murdered many Pharisee rabbis including the greatest Rabbi of the Oral law - Rabbi Akiva.  They murdered him for teaching Torah publically to Jews.  (Judaism is based entirely on the teachings of the "Pharisees" who continued the tradition of the Prophets and Men of the Great Assembly before them).   So if that's an alliance with Rome, what kind of alliance is that?

I think the historical Pharisee, Sadducee thing is getting confused.
Yes, and so was Paul, etc.

The NT is not referring to all members of the Pharisaical branch, just those who directly opposed Jesus' teachings.

But WE DO oppose Jesus's teachings to this day... And it is not likely to change...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline TheCoon

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2081
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #139 on: September 21, 2010, 01:41:04 PM »
Muman, I rebutted your proofs that the NT is anti-semitic with passages from the NT itself. Could you address them? I'm sure the Christians on this board agree that the NT is not anti-semitic and that you are incorrect. You seem to view the contents of the NT and the teachings of Jesus as a threat to Judaism in itself. Almost to a point that you don't think anyone should believe it.

We don't view Judaism as a threat to our faith and you shouldn't view Christianity as a threat to yours. My faith forbids me from attacking yours or attempting to convert you, despite what's been done in the past.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #140 on: September 21, 2010, 01:57:39 PM »
Muman, I rebutted your proofs that the NT is anti-semitic with passages from the NT itself. Could you address them? I'm sure the Christians on this board agree that the NT is not anti-semitic and that you are incorrect. You seem to view the contents of the NT and the teachings of Jesus as a threat to Judaism in itself. Almost to a point that you don't think anyone should believe it.

We don't view Judaism as a threat to our faith and you shouldn't view Christianity as a threat to yours. My faith forbids me from attacking yours or attempting to convert you, despite what's been done in the past.

We have no problem with christians as long as they are not trying to convert Jews or kill them... As long as they are not trying to spread idolatry it is fine by Judaism. But the Christians are the ones who attacked the Jews first, not the other way around... Nowhere in Jewish belief does it say that we must forcibly convert non-believers. Nowhere does it tell us that we should conquer other lands to bring them to believe in Hashem. All the Jewish nation asked for was to be left alone...

Let me clearly state the Judaism denies:

1) That Jesus was Messiah.

2) That Jesus was G-d.

If that is fine with Christians than so be it..





You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ~Hanna~

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3615
  • Be a light in the darkness.......
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #141 on: September 21, 2010, 02:00:27 PM »
I know ...

I was talking about the new testament, something which Dr B reads and knows about and was referring to his statement about Pharisee's and Jesus. I realize what you say here. Dr B had made that statement.

Historically, wasn't Jesus a Pharisee?


Also, it's not historically correct that the Pharisees were in league with the Romans.   The Romans murdered many Pharisee rabbis including the greatest Rabbi of the Oral law - Rabbi Akiva.  They murdered him for teaching Torah publically to Jews.  (Judaism is based entirely on the teachings of the "Pharisees" who continued the tradition of the Prophets and Men of the Great Assembly before them).   So if that's an alliance with Rome, what kind of alliance is that?

I think the historical Pharisee, Sadducee thing is getting confused.
Yes, and so was Paul, etc.

The NT is not referring to all members of the Pharisaical branch, just those who directly opposed Jesus' teachings.

But WE DO oppose Jesus's teachings to this day... And it is not likely to change...


SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #142 on: September 21, 2010, 02:02:18 PM »
Re:  "If, on the other hand, you are merely criticizing JTF as a whole without offering any solutions or any real way to improve it, I must say it appears a bit empty.   It's easy for a person to say, "you should have done better." or "I would do better if I was in charge."  It's much harder to say, "this is how things could be better if you did x, y, and z" and actually give ideas that you think would improve the situation.   I really hope it's the former and not the latter.  If so please share your ideas for improving JTF, with Chaim and/or with all of us. "

My ideas about JTF have long ago been known and long ago been shared.

Cognitive disassociative disorder in one or more forum posters is just one of the reasons that this forum doesn't need trolls in order to to remain constantly and regularly disrupted.

The most serious disruptions here on the forum are created not by nazi or muzzie trolls, but exist because of members who perceive non-existent or implied "threats" to their social standing, ranking, prestige, or emotional well being, whenever they encounter stimuli in the form of messages written or spoken by another forum member.

Some people can not read a simple sentence or converse with other individuals without "scrambling" inside their own minds the ideas or messages being transmitted to them, "believing" that they are being challenged or insulted, and then emotionally and illogically overreacting to what is in fact a neutral, if not benign communication.

Inside the minds of these type individuals, normal human thought processes have been replaced by a pre-recorded "loop" of self-deprecating negative messages which play over and over again, whenever stimulated by a written or oral communication.

Whether or not it's "genetic" in origin, it is a serious learning disorder.

:o  Must be tough for the brilliants to be around cognitive disorder members. :disease:
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #143 on: September 21, 2010, 02:03:59 PM »
Coon, I think this website houses a lot of what Muman is speaking of what he sees in the NT.  To me it is mystifying, to say the least.  I tried to copy and paste the text but due to some tables/charts that did not copy/paste well the original link may be easier to read and comprehend.

http://www.messiahtruth.com/anti.html

The Anti-Jewish New Testament

 I.            Introduction

Jewish people, who have read the New Testament throughout the history of Christianity, became well aware of the numerous passages of vicious and defamatory anti-Jewish polemic within it.  On the other hand, Christians, in general, have been insensitive to the offensive nature of these texts and to the damage that their usage has done to the Jewish people throughout the Common Era.  When the Emperor Constantine became a Christian in the fourth century C.E. and installed Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire, Jewish people became a primary target of persecution by "The Church"

Although the Holocaust, which caused the murderous annihilation of two-thirds of Europe's Jewish population, was in some ways different from previous historical acts of mass persecution and genocide of the Jewish people, it shared the motive of its precursors, the Crusades and Inquisition, and the many pogroms and expulsions.  Each of these events was fueled by anti-Semitism, the hatred of Jewish people, and was aimed at their murder and plunder.  The Holocaust distinguished itself from the other events in the scope of its genocidal goals and the fact that it did not offer its victims the "option" of conversion to Christianity – there was no escape from death.

An increasing number of Christian scholars have concluded that the root of anti-Semitism in the Christian world community is ultimately found within the New Testament.  In his book, Elder and Younger Brothers, the late Prof. A. Roy Eckardt [former Professor of Religion at both Lehigh University (PA) and Oxford University (UK), and an ordained minister], asserted that the foundation of anti-Semitism, and the responsibility for the Holocaust lie ultimately in the New Testament.  In another  book, Your People, My People, Eckardt insisted that Christian repentance must include a reexamination of basic theological attitudes toward Jewry and the New Testament in order to deal effectively with the problem of anti-Semitism and its prevention.  The general message scholars such as Eckardt are trying to convey is that, using the New Testament as its authoritative source, "The Church" has stereotyped the Jewish people as an icon of unredeemed humanity; they became an image of a blind, stubborn, carnal, and perverse people.  This dehumanization is the vehicle that formed the psychological prerequisite to the atrocities that followed.

Rather than speculate about and explore the reasons why the New Testament contains the racist defamatory anti-Jewish rhetoric, this essay will consider some examples of such New Testament passages that appear in Christian lectionaries.  Lectionaries are collections of Scriptural passages from Christian Bibles that are read during regular weekly Catholic and Protestant church services, and which are repeated on some cyclical schedule.  As such, these lectionaries are widely used by many millions of Church-going Christians, and they are somewhat similar to Jewish prayer books, such as a Siddur.

The material found in the lectionaries is, of course, only the "tip of the iceberg", but it suffices to demonstrate the plausibility of the assertion that anti-Semitism among Christians is rooted in the New Testament.

 II.            Anti-Jewish Polemic in the New Testament

Much of the information in this essay has been extracted from the article[1] Removing Anti-Jewish Polemic from our Christian Lectionaries: A Proposal by Prof. Norman A. Beck[2], who is a New Testament scholar and Professor of Theology and Classical Languages at Texas Lutheran University.  In his article, Prof. Beck deals with what he calls in some of his published books "… the specific texts identified as most problematic …", texts found in six of the 27 books that comprise the New Testament.  Prof. Beck also identifies the offensive passages in the New Testament and indicates the instances in which all or portions of these texts are included in major lectionary series.

1. Gospel of Matthew

The Gospel of Matthew contains approximately 90 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.  These are shown in Table II.A-1.

Table II.A-1 – Anti-Jewish polemic in the Gospel of Matthew

Source
   
Description of Context
   
Lectionary

Code*

3:7c
   

The Pharisees and Sadducees are called poisonous snakes
   

MLR

12:34a
   

The Pharisees are called evil poisonous snakes
   

---

15:3-9
   

Condemnation of the Pharisees for rejecting the commandments
   

---

15:12-14
   

The Pharisees are called blind guides leading the blind
   

---

16:6
   

Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees
   

---

19:3-9
   

The Pharisees are said to be hard-hearted
   

---

19:28
   

The disciples of Jesus will judge the twelve tribes of Israel
   

---

22:18c
   

The Pharisees are called hypocrites
   

HMLR

23:13-36
   

The scribes and Pharisees are repeatedly vilified as hypocrites
   

---

23:38
   

The house of Jerusalem is to be forsaken and desolate
   

---

26:59-68
   

The chief priests and council condemn Jesus as deserving death
   

MLR

27:1-26
   

The people demand that Jesus, not Barabbas, be crucified
   

MLR

27:62-66
   

The chief priests and Pharisees request a guard at Jesus' tomb
   

MLR

28:4
   

The guards tremble and become like dead when the angel appears
   

LR

28:11-15
   

The chief priest bribe the guards to lie about their actions
   

---

* Key to Lectionary Codes:

--- - Not included in a major lectionary series.

H - The "Historic Pericopes"[3] used by the majority of Christians prior to 1969.

M - The Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass used during the 1980s.

L  - Lutheran adaptations of the Lectionary for Mass, printed in the Lutheran Book of Worship.

R - The Revised Common Lectionary, 1992.

 

   2. Gospel of Mark

 

The Gospel of Mark contains approximately 40 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.  These are shown in Table II.B-1.

 

Table II.B-1 – Anti-Jewish polemic in the Gospel of Mark

 

Source
   

Description of Context
   

Lectionary

Code*

3:6
   

The Pharisees are said to have begun to plan to destroy Jesus
   

MR

7:6-13
   

Condemnation of the Pharisees for rejecting the commandments
   

MLR

8:15
   

Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees
   

---

10:2-5
   

The Pharisees are said to be hard-hearted
   

MLR

14:55-65
   

The chief priests and council condemn Jesus as deserving death
   

---

15:1-15
   

The crowd demands that Jesus, not Barabbas, be crucified
   

MLR

* Key to Lectionary Codes:

--- - Not included in a major lectionary series.

M - The Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass used during the 1980s.

L  - Lutheran adaptations of the Lectionary for Mass, printed in the Lutheran Book of Worship.

R - The Revised Common Lectionary, 1992.

 

   3. Gospel of Luke

 

The Gospel of Luke contains approximately 60 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.  These are shown in Table II.C-1.

 

Table II.C-1 – Anti-Jewish polemic in the Gospel of Luke

 

Source
   

Description of Context
   

Lectionary

Code*

3:7c
   

The multitudes are called poisonous snakes
   

LR

4:28-30
   

The members of the synagogue in Nazareth try to kill Jesus
   

MLR

7:30
   

The Pharisees are said to have rejected the purposes of God
   

---

11:39-54
   

The Pharisees and Torah scholars are repeatedly condemned
   

---

12:1b
   

Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy
   

---

13:14-17
   

The ruler of the synagogue is condemned as a hypocrite
   

---

13:35a
   

The house of Jerusalem is to be forsaken
   

LR

22:63-71
   

The chief priests and council condemn Jesus as deserving death
   

LR

23:1-25
   

The people demand that Jesus, not Barabbas, be crucified
   

LR

* Key to Lectionary Codes:

--- - Not included in a major lectionary series.

M - The Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass used during the 1980s.

L  - Lutheran adaptations of the Lectionary for Mass, printed in the Lutheran Book of Worship.

R - The Revised Common Lectionary, 1992.

 

   4. Gospel of John

 

The Gospel of John contains approximately 130 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.  These are shown in Table II.D-1.

 

Table II.D-1 – Anti-Jewish polemic in the Gospel of John

 

Source
   

Description of Context
   

Lectionary

Code*

5:16-18
   

The Jews are said to have persecuted Jesus and wanted to kill him
   

---

5:37b-47
   

It is said that God's word and God's love is not in the Jews
   

---

7:19-24
   

It is said that none of the Jews do (what is written in) the Torah
   

---

7:28d
   

It is said that the Jews do not know the One who has sent Jesus
   

---

8:13-28
   

It is said that the Pharisees know neither Jesus nor the Father
   

---

8:37-59
   

The Jews are said to be descendants of their father, the Devil
   

H

9:13-41
   

The Pharisees and other Jews are condemned as guilty
   

MLR

10:8
   

The Jews are said to be thieves and robbers
   

MLR

10:10a
   

The Jews are depicted as those who steal and kill and destroy
   

---

10:31-39
   

The Jews are said to have picked up stones to throw at Jesus
   

---

11:53
   

It is said that the Jews realized that they would have to kill Jesus
   

L

11:57
   

It is said that the chief priests and Pharisees wanted to seize Jesus
   

---

12:10
   

It is said that the chief priests planned to kill Lazarus and Jesus
   

---

12:36b-43
   

It is said that most Jews loved the praise of men more than of God
   

---

16:2-4
   

(The Jews who) kill Jesus' disciples will think they are serving God
   

H

18:28-32
   

The Jews are said to have demanded that Pilate sentence Jesus to death
   

HMLR

18:38b-40
   

The Jews are said to be demanding that Jesus, not Barabbas, be crucified
   

HMLR

19:4-16
   

The Jews are depicted as insisting to Pilate that Jesus be crucified
   

HMLR

* Key to Lectionary Codes:

--- - Not included in a major lectionary series.

H - The "Historic Pericopes" used by the majority of Christians prior to 1969.

M - The Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass used during the 1980s.

L  - Lutheran adaptations of the Lectionary for Mass, printed in the Lutheran Book of Worship.

R - The Revised Common Lectionary, 1992.

 

   5. Acts of the Apostles

 

The Acts of the Apostles contains approximately 120 verses of defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.  These are shown in Table II.E-1.

 

Table II.E-1 – Anti-Jewish polemic in the Book of Acts

 

Source
   

Description of Context
   

Lectionary

Code*

2:23b
   

Peter tells the men of Israel that they crucified Jesus
   

MLR

2:36b
   

Again Peter tells the men of Israel that they crucified Jesus
   

MLR

3:13b-15a
   

Peter tells the men of Israel that they killed the originator of life
   

MLR

4:10a
   

Again Peter tells the men of Israel that they killed Jesus
   

MLR

5:30b
   

Peter tells the members of the Jewish council that they killed Jesus
   

MLR

6:11-14
   

Some Jews are said to have brought false accusations against Stephen
   

---

7:51-60
   

Stephen shown as condemning the Jews for betraying and killing Jesus
   

MLR

9:1-2
   

Paul is depicted as planning the arrest of disciples of Jesus
   

LR

9:23-25
   

Jews are said to have plotted to kill Paul
   

---

9:29b
   

Jewish Hellenists are also said to have tried to kill Paul
   

---

12:1-3a
   

It is said that the Jews were pleased when Herod killed James
   

---

12:3b-4
   

Herod is said to have seized Peter also to please the Jews
   

---

12:11
   

Peter is said to have realized that the Jews wanted to kill him
   

---

13:10-11
   

Paul is said to have condemned the Jew Elymas as a son of the Devil
   

---

13:28-29a
   

It is said that the Jews had asked Pilate to crucify Jesus
   

L

13:39d
   

It is said that Jews cannot be forgiven by means of the Torah
   

---

13:45-46
   

Jews are said to have spoken against Paul
   

ML

13:50-51
   

Jews are said to have encouraged persecution of Paul and Barnabas
   

ML

14:1-6
   

Many Jews opposing Paul and Barnabas and attempting to stone them
   

---

14:19-20
   

Jews are said to have stoned Paul, thinking that they had killed him
   

---

17:5-9
   

Jews are said to have incited a riot, looking for Paul and Silas
   

L

17:13
   

Jews are said to have stirred up turmoil against Paul
   

L

18:6
   

Paul said to have told the Jews, "Your blood will be on your own heads!"
   

---

18:12-17
   

Jews are said to have brought accusations against Paul
   

---

19:13-19
   

Jewish exorcists are shown to be condemned
   

---

21:27-36
   

Jews are depicted as seizing Paul and as trying to kill him
   

---

22:4-5
   

Paul says that when he was a Jew he had persecuted Christians
   

---

23:2-5
   

Paul is said to have condemned the chief priest for striking Paul
   

---

23:12-22
   

Jews are said to have plotted to eat nothing until they kill Paul
   

---

23:27-30
   

Paul is said to have been nearly killed by the Jews
   

---

24:9
   

The Jews are said to have accused Paul of many crimes
   

---

25:2-5
   

Jews are said to have plotted to kill Paul
   

---

25:7-11
   

Jews are said to have continued to bring accusations against Paul
   

---

25:15-21
   

Jews are said to have spoken repeatedly against Paul
   

---

25:24
   

All Jews are said to have shouted that Paul must be killed
   

---

26:21
   

The Jews are said to have seized Paul and tried to kill him
   

---

28:25-28
   

Paul is said to have condemned the Jews for never understanding God
   

---

* Key to Lectionary Codes:

--- - Not included in a major lectionary series.

M - The Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass used during the 1980s.

L  - Lutheran adaptations of the Lectionary for Mass, printed in the Lutheran Book of Worship.

R - The Revised Common Lectionary, 1992.

 

   6. Paul's Letters & Epistles

 

Within the seven letters written by Paul and the six Pseudo-Pauline and Deutero-Pauline epistles are found four verses which constitute some of the most virulent anti-Jewish polemic present in the New Testament.  These are shown in Table II.F-1.

 

Table II.F-1 – Anti-Jewish polemic from Paul's 1st Thessalonians

 

Source
   

Description of Context
   

Lectionary

Code

2:13-16
   

Condemning the Jews for killing Jesus and the prophets, and celebrating the suffering of the Jews now that the "wrath of God" has come upon them
   

---

* Key to Lectionary Codes:

--- - Not included in a major lectionary series.

 

III.            Observations and Conclusions

 

Some general observations may be drawn from the material presented above:

 

Æ     An ever-increasing number of Christian scholars agree that the New Testament contains defamatory anti-Jewish polemic.

 

Æ     Although various speculations exist regarding the reasons such defamatory anti-Jewish polemic found its way into the New Testament, a salient and good "food for thought" question is:

 

?        Can such anti-Jewish language be the "breathed word of G-d", as many Christians believe the New Testament is, or the "inspired word of G-d", as many other Christians believe?

 

Æ     Whatever might have been the reasons such defamatory anti-Jewish polemic originally found its way into the New Testament, there is no doubt about the fact that it served to fuel anti-Semitism and its resultant atrocities against the Jewish people throughout the history of Christianity.

 

Æ     Based on quantity alone, the Gospel of John appears to be the most anti-Jewish book in the New Testament, with Acts of the Apostles being a close second.  As an example, consider the following samples out of a passage from the Gospel of John listed among others in Table II.D-1 above [words in brackets were added for clarification; highlighting added for emphasis]:

 

John 8:44,47(KJV) – (44) Ye [Jews] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye [Jews] will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

(47) He that is of God heareth God's words: ye [Jews] therefore hear them not, because ye [Jews] are not of God.

 

Æ     Based on virulence and viciousness, the one selection that may have been most responsible for the shedding of the blood of millions of innocent Jewish victims over the history of Christianity is from Paul's epistolary [highlighting added for emphasis]:

 

1 Thessalonians 2:13-16(KJV) – (13) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.  (14) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:  (15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:  (16) Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

Several passages from the Acts of the Apostles convey similar messages.

 

Table III-1 shows summary statistics, extracted from the various tables in Sec. II, on anti-Jewish polemic found in the major lectionary series.

 

Table III-1 – Anti-Jewish polemic in the New Testament and in Christian lectionaries

 

Source
   

# of

passages
   

% of total
   

# of

verses
   

% of total
   

% of NT

H – "Historic Pericopes"
   

6
   

7.0
   

48
   

10.5
   

0.6

M – RC Lectionary for Mass
   

23
   

26.7
   

146
   

31.9
   

1.8

L – Lutheran Lectionary for Mass
   

32
   

37.2
   

203
   

44.4
   

2.6

R – The Revised Common Lectionary
   

27
   

31.4
   

181
   

39.6
   

2.3

Number of distinct passages
   

35
   

 
   

 
   

 
   

 

Passages in NT but not in lectionaries
   

51
   

 
   

 
   

 
   

 

Total distinct passages
   

86
   

 
   

 
   

 
   

 

Number of distinct verses
   

 
   

 
   

220
   

 
   

 

Verses in NT but not in lectionaries
   

 
   

 
   

237
   

 
   

 

Total distinct verses
   

 
   

 
   

457
   

 
   

5.7

Verses in the entire NT (KJV)
   

 
   

 
   

7,959
   

 
   

100.0

 

Additional observations can be drawn from the data shown in Table III-1:

 

Æ     Although the "historic pericope" tradition may not have deliberately selected blatantly anti-Jewish texts, the tradition did not demonstrate sensitivity to this issue.  While there may not have been a conscious attempt to select large numbers of defamatory anti-Jewish texts, it does not appear that there was any directed effort to avoid their usage either.

 

Æ     The Roman Catholic Lectionary for Mass contains 23 selections that are blatantly anti-Jewish, as compared with the six in the "historic pericopes".  It appears, then, that the liturgical specialists who developed the Lectionary for Mass did not apply to their process of lectionary formation the principles and the spirit of Nostra Aetate (the Declaration on the Relationship of the Roman Catholic Church to Non-Christian Religions approved by the Vatican Council II - 10/28/65).  They were particularly insensitive in their selections of virulently anti-Jewish texts from the Acts of the Apostles, which they use during the important Easter Season.

 

Æ     The Lutheran liturgists and the liturgists within the other Christian denominations, who became interested in the (Roman Catholic) Lectionary for Mass and in adopting it, with modifications, for their own use, apparently had no concerns about its expanded use of defamatory anti-Jewish texts.  In fact, the liturgists from the Lutheran tradition added more viciously and blatantly anti-Jewish selections in the Lutheran Lectionary for Mass, thereby making it the most anti-Jewish lectionary analyzed by Prof. Beck.

 

Æ     The Christian liturgists who developed The Revised Common Lectionary also demonstrated the same lack of sensitivity as did the others.  In fact, they actually added several blatantly anti-Jewish passages to their collection.

 

Considering the large numbers of Church going Christians who have used these liturgical collections in their regular church services, is it any wonder that anti-Semitism has been so rampant within "The Church" and Christendom?  The anti-Jewish rhetoric in the New Testament has been very effective in poisoning the minds of those who study it and accept it as "the word of G-d", or as "inspired by G-d".

 
IV.            Summary

 

The summary view of this essay is simple:

 

Question:  What is the source of the common thread of anti-Semitism shared

                   by the historical acts of persecution of the Jewish people?

 

Answer:  The New Testament.

 

The "Christian love for the Jew", of which so much is heard these days, turns out to be conditional in overwhelming majority of cases.  Christians, evangelical Christian missionaries in particular, view the Jewish people as blind and in need of being made into "believers".  When their missionary efforts fail, or when their deceptions are exposed, their professed love for the Jew quickly turns into hatred and contempt.  Today's hand-clapping Jew-loving "new Christians" are evangelical Christian fundamentalists in disguise, some of whom even profess to be "Torah Observant".  They teach the same anti-Semitic doctrines as have been taught by "The Church" throughout the Common Era.  And while their tactics may have changed, their agenda and message remain the same.

 

The number of Jewish people who have been adversely affected, maimed, and murdered in the name of Jesus throughout the history of Christianity significantly exceeds the six million who were massacred by the Nazis during the Holocaust.  Yet, there are Jews who, for various reasons, have chosen to overlook this fact and have joined themselves to "The Church" with its built-in anti-Semitism.  According to Shmuel Golding, who founded and directed the Jerusalem Institute of Biblical Polemics for many years:

 

"Any Jew who can pay homage to the New Testament or allow himself to believe in it, is, in my opinion in the same category as a Jew who tries to justify Hitler's Mein Kampf or, as one who covers up for the deeds of the Nazis."[4]

 

A Jewish person who is approached by Christian missionaries should realize that, in order to be "loved" by them, he or she will have to embrace and accept the New Testament as part of his or her Bible.  Therefore, every Jewish person, whether still a member of the Jewish community or one who has already joined a Hebrew-Christian organization, must ask himself or herself the following questions and try to answer them honestly:

 

?        Can the New Testament, which has led to the persecution and murder of millions of my Jewish ancestors throughout the Common Era, truly be the breathed word of G-d, or be inspired by Him?

 

?        Am I ready to embrace this New Testament, which spouts hatred and lies against the Jewish people and, therefore, against me as a Jewish person, and accept it as part of my Bible?

 

Hopefully, the honest and objective answers to these questions will be the motivation for any subsequent action by the affected individual.

 

###

 

References for further study

 

[Selected material from some of these sources was used in preparing this essay]

 

Internet Websites:

 

The New Testament & Anti-Semitism (http://www.messianic-racism.mcmail.com/ca/antisem/idx.htm) - Several relevant articles may be found at this website.

 

Jewish-Christian Relations (http://www.jcrelations.net/) - This website contains a wealth of scholarly materials that deal with all aspects of Jewish-Christian relations.

 

Books:

 

Elder and Younger Brothers: The Encounter of Jews and Christians, by A. Roy Eckhardt, Schocken Books (1973)

 

Your People, My People: The Meeting of Christians & Jews, by A. Roy Eckhardt, Crown Publishing Group (1974); ISBN 0-81290-4125

 

Antisemitism in the New Testament , by Lillian C. Freudmann, University Press of America (1994); ISBN: 0819192953

 

Removing the Anti-Judaism from the New Testament, by Howard Clark Kee and Irvin J. Borowsky, American Interfaith Institute, Philadelphia, PA

[1] This article is on the Internet at - http://www.jcrelations.net/en/displayItem.php?id=737

[2] Prof. Beck's credentials are on the Internet at - http://www.jcrelations.net/en/displayItem.php?id=1102

[3] A pericope is a selection or extract from a book (The Random House College Dictionary, p. 987 [1975]).

[4] Quoted from: Antisemitism in the New Testament, an article on the Internet at the following address: http://www.messianicracism.mcmail.com/ca/antisem/g2.htm.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #144 on: September 21, 2010, 02:11:37 PM »
Kahane, both Julius and Augustus Caesar allowed the Jews to practice Judaism and synagogues enjoyed special status where they could request taxation from Jews for upkeep. 

How benevolent of them!  Do realize that before foreign occupation showed up, Jews practiced in their synagogues freely because that is the Jewish culture and the normal situation under Jewish self-rule (long before Christians even existed yet).   

Wow, and they even gave us the privilege to be taxed!   What the...


But there's something obviously incorrect about your "history."

Gaius Julius Caesar (13 July 100 B.C.E. – 15 March 44 B.C.E.)

Something obviously doesn't add up here.     Are you claiming there were Christians before Jesus lived?

Btw, if they tried to torch all synagogues to the ground, there would have been open revolt, which the Romans did NOT want and did not have the resources for (or at least not willing to devote them to that).   And indeed, when things got more hostile and they burnt down the Temple, there was an open revolt!

Quote
Jews in Judaea were allowed the same treatment for the most part. 
  Same treatment as what?  As other conquered groups?    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying.

You misunderstand the first point. The Jewish synagogues were able to tax their own people and keep the profits for temple upkeep and such, whereas other religions of the time under Roman rule had to give the tax to Rome.

I don't see how my timeline is off. Rome conquered Judaea in 63 B.C.E., which falls during the reign of Gaius Julius Caesar(100-43). This has nothing to do with Christians and simply to do with the beginning of Jews under Roman rule. It merely shows that Jews observed some sort of special treatment.

The point is, at the beginning of Roman rule the Jews were treated better than other groups. This was obviously to maintain peace as opposed to any Roman benevolence for Jews.

Your point was that Jews were treated better than Christians by Romans, under Roman rule.  That Jews were given special privileges compared to Christians.   Or else, what "other religious" was Jesus or the gospels you cited talking about in the quotes you brought up to make this point?  You were using your bible quotes to make your point, so indeed, the fact that the reign of Julius Caesar (a person YOU mentioned as evidence for your claim), was BEFORE Christianity even existed or before Jesus was born - this can't possibly be a point supporting your claim.   

The problem here is that I'm not going to argue interpretation of your scriptures, but you are claiming this as HISTORICAL fact, documented by scholarship.  That anyone can discuss.  But it turns out not true.  So maybe you were basing it on how you interpreted your scripture, but not actual historical evidence.  And maybe your interpretation therefore needs altering, but I leave that to you.

Also your claim that Jews didn't pay taxes to Rome is incorrect.  There were tax collectors who collected taxes owed by Jews to the Roman empire.  It was a source of great resentment among Jews that they had to pay taxes to the pagan empire.

Offline TheCoon

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2081
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #145 on: September 21, 2010, 02:26:16 PM »
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about Jews being treated better than Christians. Someone else did, I believe briann. I merely showed that Jews were treated more favorably than other faiths. I also never said that Jews didn't pay taxes to Rome at any point. I said Jews were allowed to collect tax for temple upkeep instead of giving it to Rome like other faiths were forced to do.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline ~Hanna~

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3615
  • Be a light in the darkness.......
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #146 on: September 21, 2010, 02:29:14 PM »
90% of all communication is nonverbal. I wonder how he could come up with such a conclusion?


Re:  "If, on the other hand, you are merely criticizing JTF as a whole without offering any solutions or any real way to improve it, I must say it appears a bit empty.   It's easy for a person to say, "you should have done better." or "I would do better if I was in charge."  It's much harder to say, "this is how things could be better if you did x, y, and z" and actually give ideas that you think would improve the situation.   I really hope it's the former and not the latter.  If so please share your ideas for improving JTF, with Chaim and/or with all of us. "

My ideas about JTF have long ago been known and long ago been shared.

Cognitive disassociative disorder in one or more forum posters is just one of the reasons that this forum doesn't need trolls in order to to remain constantly and regularly disrupted.

The most serious disruptions here on the forum are created not by nazi or muzzie trolls, but exist because of members who perceive non-existent or implied "threats" to their social standing, ranking, prestige, or emotional well being, whenever they encounter stimuli in the form of messages written or spoken by another forum member.

Some people can not read a simple sentence or converse with other individuals without "scrambling" inside their own minds the ideas or messages being transmitted to them, "believing" that they are being challenged or insulted, and then emotionally and illogically overreacting to what is in fact a neutral, if not benign communication.

Inside the minds of these type individuals, normal human thought processes have been replaced by a pre-recorded "loop" of self-deprecating negative messages which play over and over again, whenever stimulated by a written or oral communication.

Whether or not it's "genetic" in origin, it is a serious learning disorder.

:o  Must be tough for the brilliants to be around cognitive disorder members. :disease:
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #147 on: September 21, 2010, 02:37:38 PM »
Re:  "If, on the other hand, you are merely criticizing JTF as a whole without offering any solutions or any real way to improve it, I must say it appears a bit empty.   It's easy for a person to say, "you should have done better." or "I would do better if I was in charge."  It's much harder to say, "this is how things could be better if you did x, y, and z" and actually give ideas that you think would improve the situation.   I really hope it's the former and not the latter.  If so please share your ideas for improving JTF, with Chaim and/or with all of us. "

My ideas about JTF have long ago been known and long ago been shared.

Cognitive disassociative disorder in one or more forum posters is just one of the reasons that this forum doesn't need trolls in order to to remain constantly and regularly disrupted.

The most serious disruptions here on the forum are created not by nazi or muzzie trolls, but exist because of members who perceive non-existent or implied "threats" to their social standing, ranking, prestige, or emotional well being, whenever they encounter stimuli in the form of messages written or spoken by another forum member.

Some people can not read a simple sentence or converse with other individuals without "scrambling" inside their own minds the ideas or messages being transmitted to them, "believing" that they are being challenged or insulted, and then emotionally and illogically overreacting to what is in fact a neutral, if not benign communication.

Inside the minds of these type individuals, normal human thought processes have been replaced by a pre-recorded "loop" of self-deprecating negative messages which play over and over again, whenever stimulated by a written or oral communication.

Whether or not it's "genetic" in origin, it is a serious learning disorder.

:o  Must be tough for the brilliants to be around cognitive disorder members. :disease:

And where is the antidote so we can cure JTF?!

 :doctor:

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #148 on: September 21, 2010, 02:46:40 PM »
Coon, you said this:

This refers to condemning the pharisees who were in league with Rome. The pharisees of the time worked with Rome to achieve special status where they didn't have to pay taxes or do military service. Jews were exempt from supporting the official Roman religion while Christians were persecuted for refusing to pay taxes or serving.

Then when I questioned this, you claimed it was "history" that everyone knows.    I believe you have not been able to substantiate these claims so perhaps you need to alter your interpretation of your scripture or perhaps not.  Again, I leave that to you.    But you were indeed making the claim.    And you also later on specified that you were speaking about "during the time of [Jesus]"

But you cited Julius and Augustus Caesar as your historical point, but Julius Caesar's reign ended before Jesus was born and before there was such a thing as a Christian or Christianity, historically.   

I guess all of this is not worth belaboring any further.


As to the Jews being able to use funds for Temple upkeep and the like, where other pagan "faiths" (where do you mean, exactly?  In Gaul?  Other areas?) were not - who cares?    This was an illegal occupation of all of these groups, and if Romans let Jews go about their business because Jews were more stubborn than these other groups and less willing to assimilate to Roman ways and leadership, so be it.  I see that as a good thing.   And I certainly don't see it as a reason to resent or accuse the Jewish leadership or Temple people that they somehow arranged for better treatment than conquered groups in other parts of the world.

But like I did say, the Romans viewed the Torah and Judaism as a great threat to their hegemony and control over the Judean province.   As it certainly was.   The Pharisees, (The term in Hebrew is Perushim - the explainers), the biggest purveyors of Torah teachings and Judaism, were certainly no friend.   The Romans disbanded the Sanhedrin and made group gatherings very difficult for precisely this reason.  The Sanhedrin was the centralized authority of the pharisaic religious leadership.  It was viewed as a revolutionary body.


Offline Aces High

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 3250
Re: I AM GETTING A TAD FED UP.. AND A MAJOR VENTING SORRY BUT I AM FED UP ABOUT IT
« Reply #149 on: September 21, 2010, 04:20:41 PM »
What an angry, low-life, loser Ralph is!  A Jew hater who spends his free time coming on a Jewish forum.