Shalom

[Dan Ben Noah]

Shalom

[Zelhar]

I'm pretty sure that there is no doctrine regarding these matters.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Like most subjects, there are going to be multiple views in the rishonim and sources of hashkafa.

The Rambam rejects that there are demons, even though some rabbis of the Talmud had discussions about them and ultimately included them into the canonized text of the Talmud (much moreso the Bavli, but also a couple of places in Yerushalmi from I've been told).

Personally, I don't think there is any such thing as demons.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So who were the angels G-d charged with error?

I don't know.  I don't even know what that means.

Isn't it just saying that even the angels of God are not without error
(remember the passage where they are "rebuked" for rejoicing at the drowning egyptians?)

So how much more so are humans not without error. 

Nonetheless, I don't really know what angels are.


But I don't really see what you're saying.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Also, I assure you that Rambam learned and understood Iyov.   Maybe he has a commentary on it somewhere?  I don't know.

[edu]

Although angels don't have evil impulses that drive them to sin; they can still make mistakes by choosing the wrong decision on what is the will of G-d.
So for example when the angels went to Sdom {Sodom} they mistakenly conveyed to Lot that certain powers of G-d, were their power.
They were therefore punished by having power withheld from them until they reached the city.
See Breishit/Genesis 19:22
In the Talmud tractate Yoma, the sages taught that the angel Gavriel, was punished for not carrying out the punishment of the Jewish people in the way directed by G-d and also for unnecessarily reporting bad.
His power to act for the benefit of Israel was therefore lowered until in the merit of Daniel, he was restored to his proper level, when struggling  against the angel that represented the interests of Persia {Paras}. see Daniel 10 verses 12 and 13

[Zelhar]

What about passages like the following from Job?  Keep in mind that Job had to deal with Satan.

Job 18 If G-d places no trust in his servants,
       if he charges his angels with error,

 19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
       whose foundations are in the dust,
       who are crushed more readily than a moth!

Job is a book about doubts and reassurance of faith. I think the whole thing about Satan arguing with God about Job is metaphoric.

[Zelhar]

I think it is logical that any sentient being other than God makes mistakes.

[muman613]

The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will.  So saying that G-d found error in the angels would mean that they are imperfect, which either means they chose to do wrong or that G-d made them incorrectly.

And there is no passage in the Tanach about the angels being rebuked for rejoicing at drowning Egyptians to my knowledge.

Though it is not in Tanach, the story about the Angels being rebuked for wanting to sing is in Talmud...

http://ohr.edu/holidays/pesach/ask_the_rabbi/3474

From: Barry in Seattle

    Dear Rabbi,

    Why do we read the complete hallel for only the first day of Pesach but not the rest of the holiday? I think this is different than on Chanukah when we read the complete hallel for the entire holiday. Weren’t the miracles that occurred regarding Pesach greater than Chanukah?


Dear Barry,

After departing Egypt on what became the first day of Passover, the Jews reached the Sea of Reeds (Red Sea) on the seventh day. As you know, they were pursued by the Egyptians in chariots of war led by Pharaoh who intended to annihilate them. Trapped with the sea before them and the Egyptian army rapidly approaching from behind, the Jews turned their hearts upward. In that merit, G-d miraculously split the sea and the Jews passed through.

As the last Jews exited the sea, the last of the Egyptians had finished entering in after them. The raging waters held at bay were let loose with a fury and drowned the entire Egyptian army. Having witnessed this awesome miracle and surreal salvation, the Jews broke out in song and praise of G-d, “Then Moses and the children of Israel sang this song to the L-rd, and they spoke, saying, I will sing to the L-rd, for very exalted is He; a horse and its rider He cast into the sea” (Ex. 15:1).

According to the Midrash the angels observed all this from on high and also wanted to chime in and praise. G-d reprimanded them saying, “My creations are drowning in the sea and you wish to sing?!” From here we learn that that the joy of the salvation must be tempered by sorrow over the destruction of the enemy, as in the verse “Do not rejoice in the downfall of your enemy” (Prov. 24:17).

Therefore, the hallel of this day, the seventh day of Pesach, is not completed since our joy over the miraculous salvation at the sea is marred by the loss of life of the Egyptians. And since the hallel is not completed on this last day, it’s abridged for the intermediate days as well, so that they should not be viewed as more important than the concluding festival day.

You might ask, If G-d stopped the angels from singing, why did Moses and the Jews sing — and why didn’t G-d stop them as he stopped the angels? And if He didn’t stop them, then why shouldn’t we sing as well? Furthermore, according to this, we shouldn’t complete the hallel on the first day either, as there was also great loss of life in the plague of the firstborns. Why do we complete it then? Well, I’m glad you asked. All can be answered with the same idea.

G-d did not allow the angels to sing because they were only spectators and did not actually experience the miracle themselves. They were therefore expected to consider both the salvation and the destruction simultaneously and reduce their joy. However, the Jews of that generation had actually lived through the most harrowing of experiences and literally saw G-d’s salvation with their own eyes. Their joy was completely focused on the miracles, then, and not on the destruction. Accordingly, this reason also applies to future generations of Jews who did not actually experience the miraculous salvation but were more like distant spectators. Therefore we don’t complete the hallel on this last day, or on the intermediate days either, as explained above.

However, the reason we do complete the hallel on the first day despite the destruction of G-d’s creatures in the plague of the firstborns is based on the injunction incumbent on every Jew to view himself as if he had actually partaken in the exodus from Egypt. Since our appreciation and joy is to be so great that we are to feel as if we had actually experienced the exodus ourselves, for this reason we recite the complete hallel on the first night and day of Pesach.

In that hour, the ministering angels wished to sing songs of praise before G-d, but He rebuked them, saying: "My handiwork is drowning in the sea, and you wish to sing before me?!"

(Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b)

[muman613]

Actually in the story of Job, HaSoton was doing the job he was created for. Soton is the angel who acts as the prosecutor of man, he also acts as the evil inclination in man, and he also acts as the angel of death...

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html
So the angels are referred to as perpetually standing, but we are movers. Our purpose is to keep on moving, to keep on improving ourselves, and to keep on rising.

And how do we do it? By constant battle with the Evil Inclination.

So now we have to revise our understanding of Satan. Satan is not a fallen angel. Satan is merely an angel with a dirty job. Satan does not have a rival kingdom. Satan is not in competition with G-d, and Satan does not want followers or worshipers. He's not even happy when people obey him and sin.

Satan is the angel who tempts us, and the angel who prosecutes us in Heaven. He is also the Angel of Death. The angel who tries to make us sin is the same angel who accuses us in the Heavenly Court, and the same angel who carries out the death sentence.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "

Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?

[muman613]

Re:  "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "

Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?

The first 'mistake' is what brought death into the world. Assisted by the external Yetzer Hara of Chava embodied in the serpent...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

What about passages like the following from Job?  Keep in mind that Job had to deal with Satan.

Job 18 If G-d places no trust in his servants,
       if he charges his angels with error,

 19 how much more those who live in houses of clay,
       whose foundations are in the dust,
       who are crushed more readily than a moth!

Job is a book about doubts and reassurance of faith. I think the whole thing about Satan arguing with G-d about Job is metaphoric.

I agree.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will.  So saying that G-d found error in the angels would mean that they are imperfect, which either means they chose to do wrong or that G-d made them incorrectly.

And there is no passage in the Tanach about the angels being rebuked for rejoicing at drowning Egyptians to my knowledge.

I'm pretty sure it's a midrash.    And its authors were chazal.   The same chazal who also read and understood Job and canonized it!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "

Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?

Why does God have to make a mistake in order to know what a mistake is?   Things can be known without first being experienced.

[muman613]

The Jewish belief is that angels are created specifically to do G-d's bidding, they have no free will.  So saying that G-d found error in the angels would mean that they are imperfect, which either means they chose to do wrong or that G-d made them incorrectly.

And there is no passage in the Tanach about the angels being rebuked for rejoicing at drowning Egyptians to my knowledge.

I'm pretty sure it's a midrash.    And its authors were chazal.   The same chazal who also read and understood Job and canonized it!

Have you heard the belief that Moshe wrote the Book of Job? I studied this book when I was in mourning for my father in Jan last (jewish) year.

http://www.torah.org/learning/iyov/intro.html

The Malbim, in the introduction to his commentary on this holy book, explains that the main purpose of the Book of Job is to expound upon one of the most perplexing phenomena in the human experience; the apparent lack of justice throughout history. All too often the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper. The underlying pain in this question has bothered the great thinkers in every generation including the greatest of all prophets, Moses.

It is the confusion which results from considering this paradox that led many people to reject the path of belief and faith in a righteous and living G-d.

Job was a devout and righteous man, yet his suffering was terrible and came for no apparent reason. As a man of unwavering faith, Job could not reconcile his belief in a merciful G-d with the tragedy of his own lot. Therefore, he felt it was reasonable to surmise that in fact, G-d does not concern Himself with the welfare of human beings. He neither rewards nor punishes according to our deeds. G-d is too exalted and man is too lowly for Him to be bothered with our behavior and needs.

He concluded that the fate of mankind is out of our hands, that we are subject to mechanical forces beyond our control set irrevocably in motion at the time of creation. The results of our decisions and actions deceptively appear to be the outcome of our own free will. In reality they are a product of celestial prescripts. If our deeds are the consequence of predetermined design we cannot be rewarded or held accountable for them. Job's answer to his own suffering is that he is the victim of fate, until his friend Elihu finally convinces him otherwise.

Before we begin a conceptual analysis of this holy book it will be helpful to clarify four things:

   1. Who wrote it?
   2. What is its content?
   3. In what form is the material presented?
   4. What is the purpose of this book?

Let us consider each these questions:

1. Who wrote it?

From chazal (our Sages) z"l, it is clear that the authorship of this book is attributed to Moshe (Moses) Rabbeinu (our teacher). This point is discussed in the tractate Bava Bathra page14b. The Malbim explained that Moshe wrote it to console the Hebrew nation when they were enslaved and suffering under Egyptian oppression.

2. What is its content?

The book of Job (in Hebrew Iyov) is the story of an exceedingly righteous man who is afflicted with horrific suffering for no apparent reason. While the main character is obviously Iyov, it is not at all clear who this person was. In fact the Talmud ( Bava Bathra page 14b ) contains a long dispute if

Iyov was a Jew, a gentile, or indeed if he at all existed.

According to the latter opinion the book of Job is a parable. It seems that most of our sages did not accept this opinion. But even according to this minority opinion we cannot relegate this work to the realm of empty fiction or myth. We can confidently claim that it is the greatest commentary on human suffering ever written.

It is interesting to note that the Vilna Gaon offers a fascinating interpretation of this Talmudic passage. According to his approach the latter opinion does not dispute the reality of Iyov. Rather it explains the purpose of his existence. He ( Iyov ) was created to be a role model ( a "mashal" in Hebrew ) from whom everyone can learn the appropriate way to accept suffering. Accordingly, we are to take a lesson from Iyov that man has no license to sit in judgment of G-d. He ( G-d ) does not need our moral approval. Although at times some of His ways may seem to be harsh they are allways based on absolute justice. Alas, the world of the absolute is often beyond our comprehension.

The tragic suffering of Iyov evokes the strong protest of all fair minded human beings: Should the righteous suffer? This question has to be one of mankind's most elusive mysteries since time immemorial. Several answers are presented and fiercely debated throughout the chapters of the book. They are forwarded by the friends of Iyov: Eliphaz, Beldad, Tzofer, and Elihu.

There is also a curiously veiled character who appears in the story; the Satan. He is the antagonist, the prosecutor, the villain (additional pejorative epithets are optional). His motivations are not clear, but his influence is clearly demonstrated. We will devote special attention to the subject of the Satan in one of our future installments.

There can be no discussion on human suffering without mention of G-d. Indeed, comprehending G-d's role in the world is essential in order to understand this book. His acquiescence to the Satan is simultaneously perplexing and disturbing. The absence of Divine intervention throughout this drama lends strong support to Iyov's contention that G-d neither scrutinizes human behavior nor concerns Himself with the human plight.

3. In what form is the material presented?

The discussions and arguments are presented in the form of a dialogue between Iyov and his friends. Each of these characters presents a unique approach to Iyov's plight. On the one hand Iyov is a believer, a man of intense faith and devout service. However, he cannot accept that a merciful, righteous G-d would consent to the dreadful suffering meted out to him at the hands of the Satan. The foundations of theology are tested in a battle field of what appears to be senseless human suffering. The issues are hotly debated between Iyov and his three friends. Finally Iyov finds balm for his wounds in the wisdom of Elihu ben Barachel.

4. What is the purpose of this book?

Moshe wrote this book as a source of consolement for his brethren who were suffering at the hands of their brutal Egyptian slave masters. They wanted to know why the righteous suffer while the wicked prosper. This was an issue with which Moshe had to struggle with his entire life time. As a young man he saw both the tranquillity of Pharaoh's palace and his brothers subjected to arduous labor and cruel torture. He felt compelled to find out if there was order and justice in the world or if man was just to suffer silently? Indeed, Moshe was so absorbed with this issue that on one momentous occasion when his intimate relationship with G-d could have secured for him whatever his heart desired, Moshe requested only two things:

1. That G-d cause His Divine Presence to dwell only amongst the Jewish nation for eternity.

2. That G-d grant him the wisdom to understand the suffering of the righteous and the prosperity of the wicked.

Our Sages tell us that although Moshe was granted his first request. The second remained concealed from him.

Our Sages reveal to us that ultimately there is an approach which can help us constructively accept our own misfortunes and suffering, however they make it clear that no absolute solution is available. Let us be patient in our investigations and all the more so in our conclusions. Let us have the humility and integrity to recognize and accept our own human limitations. After all, we have not the prophetic powers of Moshe nor the wisdom of Solomon and even they could not uncover the answer. It is crucial to realize that our limitations in understanding does not mean that suffering is without reason or plan. Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzato explains in his book Daas Tevunos that part of our reward in the world to come will be that G-d will reveal to us the meaning of every bit of pain and suffering that we experienced in our life times.

PS: I brought the source of the Midrash concerning the Angels singing at the Yam Suf:

In that hour, the ministering angels wished to sing songs of praise before G-d, but He rebuked them, saying: "My handiwork is drowning in the sea, and you wish to sing before me?!"

(Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b)

For more on this Midrash : http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/avot/10avot.htm

Rabbenu Yona, in his commentary to Avot, raises yet a third factor. Triumphing at others' sorrow – expressing any form of joy over the fall of a Jewish enemy, or reciting hallel at the decline of a gentile enemy – is morally odious and halkhically forbidden. However, celebrating Hashem's victory (the death of evil, the cessation of chillul Hashem) is not only permissible, but also expected. After all – as the gemara asserts in Megilla (14a) – reading the Megilla is actually a form of hallel (which is one reason why actual hallel is not recited on Purim). The angels were not permitted to recite hallel because THEIR joy seemed to be indulging in the suffering of the Egyptians. Invulnerable to their persecution, and inactive in the historical process, they could not sense the desecration of Hashem's Name which this miracle relieved. By contrast, human beings sense Hashem's glorification when history is altered and the wicked are destroyed, and are therefore permitted to recite hallel.

[muman613]

First of all, it's funny that you are willing to say that G-d made a mistake before saying that there can be fallen angels.  Second of all, even if Job is just a fable to teach people patience (which apparently most rabbis think it is actual history), why would it be in the Tanach if it says something theologically inaccurate?

There must be some angels or beings who have chosen to do wrong, and that is why G-d found fault in them.  No one has explained the verse I posted.

Here may lie some answers for you:


http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/64722247.html

REDEEMING CAIN

Why must this be so? Does this line deserve preservation? Is the line of Cain redeemable? The crux of this question centers on Na'ama, and the answers offered by our sages vary: Some claim that she was a worthy mate for Noach; she, as he, was righteous.17 Others identify Na'ama as a demonic figure18 who was guilty of causing even the angels to fall.19 This tradition of "fallen angels" is associated with the enigmatic "bnei Hashem" and the equally mysterious "Nefilim" who appear at the very end of Parashat Bereishit, as part of the backdrop to the generation of the flood:

    And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them; That the sons of the powerful saw the daughters of men that they were pretty; and they took as wives all those whom they chose. There were Nefilim in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of powerful came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them, the same became mighty men of old, men of renown. Bereishit (6:1-4)

This passage seems to outline the existence of various strata of society - even strata of humanity: the sons of the powerful, the daughters of man, the even-more-obscure Nefilim. We have suggested the possibility that the 'sons of the powerful' are "prehistoric" soulless humanoids, offspring of Adam and Eve who did not possess the breath of the divine which distinguished Adam, Eve and their son Shet.20 This line, then, would include Cain; it is preserved through Na'ama.21

SAINT OR DEMON?

Is Na'ama a demon-like temptress, or a fitting spouse for the great tzaddik, the most righteous man of the generation? We should recall that Noach's wife entered the Ark with the other women, and Rashi noted that this indicates the abstinence that would be practiced on the boat. If this is Na'ama, the conclusion is startling, the contrast stark: This woman is the daughter of Tzillah, the "trophy wife" taken by Lemech solely for the purpose of hedonistic pleasure. Here she stands, as the waters begin to cover the earth, the leader of the women who have been chosen to bring about the historic reconciliation, the rebirth of creation - by means of preserving abstinence and holiness on the ark. Seen in this light, Na'ama is anything but a brazen seductress.

As the flood narrative unfolds, so many details of the story begin to take on different hues when viewed from the perspective of Na'ama's personal history: All of the creatures board the Ark in pairs, in what may now be seen as a polemic against Lemech's bigamy and the corruption and egocentricity of that entire generation. And yet, the order of the day, the way that Creation will be preserved and redeemed, is not through the sexuality of these pairs but through their abstinence. The family unit on the Ark that is entrusted with preserving all of creation will work together with common purpose, as helpmates, as soulmates. They will assist Noach in assuming the role of caretaker for all the species - the shepherd for all of creation, as it were. Only when the descendents of Cain and of Shet join together to assume the vocation left vacant by Hevel's death can humanity be redeemed. When Noach later reverts to the role of Cain - planting a vineyard and turning his back on the role of shepherd, he is humiliated and his descendents are cursed. The role of Hevel brings salvation; the role of Cain brings ignominy.

.
.
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[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Things can be known without first being experienced. "

True.

But that is not the issue at hand.

The issue is this:

"If a thing has never existed, it therefore can not be known, because at the very moment in time that it is conceived of, even as a thought, it therefore does already exist and is thus known.

And if something is known, then it has already been experienced!

All this talk people always say like "Only G-d is Perfect!" or "It's impossible for G-d to make a mistake!" is just a bunch of ridiculousness because being Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal, and Unchanging, doesn't in any way infer some proof that a Supreme Being is incapable of making a Supreme Mistake!

I dare you to prove me wrong!

[Zelhar]

Re:  "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "

Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?

To me what you say makes little sense. God doesn't make a mistake by creating lesser being who can make mistakes, that was his will. One of the advantages of being God is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to.

[muman613]

Re:  "it is logical that any sentient being other than G-d makes mistakes. "

Well, if G-d created sentient beings who make mistakes, doesn't it stand to reason that G-d must therefore have to at least once made a mistake, in order to know what a mistake is so He can create it?

To me what you say makes little sense. G-d doesn't make a mistake by creating lesser being who can make mistakes, that was his will. One of the advantages of being G-d is that he doesn't need to learn things the hard way via trial and error like we human have to.

Very Good! I do agree with your logic.

Hashem doesn't have to make mistakes. He created everything, he existed before anything was even in existence. His existence cannot be fathomed by man. There was no mistake in creation, everything occured just as it did for a reason, up till this very moment, Hashem is the one who constantly is in the act of creating and re-creating reality. What I am describing takes a great amount of Emmunah and Bitachon in Hashem, and I suspect Massuh will have something witty to say about my input here.

[Zelhar]

Interesting about the bnei Hashem that spawned the nefilim.  That may indeed be related to the fallen angel idea of Job 4, even though a different word is used there (malachav, which means "his angels").  Bnei Hashem is sometimes used in the Tanach to refer to angels.  But all this is just more proof that there are spiritual beings that sin.  If true, this would not be G-d's mistake, but part of G-d's plan, because G-d created evil:

Isaiah 45:7. Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these.

I think there are actually some strains of Judaism that believe in these demons or fallen angels, but unfortunately it is not mainstream enough.

I think the passages in Genesis about the Nefilim are more challenging to understanding than the passages you brought before from Job. The passages from Job simply states that even angels can make mistakes.

Regarding the Nephilim, and their origins, there is no consensus in Judaism. Some indeed believe them to be the product of angels who took human wives. But there are other who explain them as sons Of Sheth who took wives from the daughters of Kain. And there are other explanations as well.

PS: for the Hebrew readers among you:
http://www.kipa.co.il/jew/show.asp?id=2062
http://tora.us.fm/tnk1/kma/qjrim1/bn1.html
http://tora.us.fm/tnk1/messages/5597.html

[edu]

To
MassuhDGoodName
G-d is outside of time; you can not compare his knowledge of actions and things that he has to our knowledge of things, since we are bound by time and our wisdom does not work on the same basis as G-d's wisdom.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

First of all, it's funny that you are willing to say that G-d made a mistake before saying that there can be fallen angels. 

What?  Where did I say God made a mistake?

Please try to keep this discussion civil and do not ascribe views to me that I did not express.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "To
MassuhDGoodName
G-d is outside of time; you can not compare his knowledge of actions and things that he has to our knowledge of things, since we are bound by time and our wisdom does not work on the same basis as G-d's wisdom. "

So you agree with me!     

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"If a thing has never existed, it therefore can not be known, because at the very moment in time that it is conceived of, even as a thought, it therefore does already exist and is thus known.

Maybe for humans, but G-d can know something before it exists because He exists beyond time.

All this talk people always say like "Only G-d is Perfect!" or "It's impossible for G-d to make a mistake!" is just a bunch of ridiculousness because being Omniscient, Omnipotent, Eternal, and Unchanging, doesn't in any way infer some proof that a Supreme Being is incapable of making a Supreme Mistake! 

If something/someone is truly omniscient why would it/He make a mistake?  He would know what will result.  Unless by 'all-knowing' you mean only "partially-knowing?"