Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"

[JTFenthusiast2]

Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.

You're probably right.

I understand your frustration with this, but many of us have made it clear repeatedly that we do not have the same opinion. Personally, I wish we would all make an effort to not to post inflammatory threads.  I agree with Zelhar and Rubyspear's posts.  Sometimes, aspects of the Bible, both the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, need to be viewed in the context of the times and the historical period.  It doesn't mean that I am against the scriptures, but sometimes a literalist interpretation is incorrect if we are speaking in the present tense (e.g.: The snake in the garden of Eden, all the species on Noah's ship, etc), whereas in the past, it may have been completely correct (e.g.: reluctance to trust  non-Jews because of the history of Jewish persecution for their faith).  However, this forum is a very special space.  We are fortnate to not have this issue with I think all of our active Christian members.  We need to remember to appreciate their efforts as we would our fellow Jews.  A good action is a good action, regardless of the actor.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Professor Eidelberg www.foundation1.org  shows that whilst Judaism can be somewhat compatible with Classical Democracy, it is incompatible with modern Normative Democracy "

True.

However, Judaism is compatible with a modern model of government operating through democratic processes - such as a democratically elected Republic.

In addition, an electoral college style system could be constitutionally implemented whereby non-Jewish communities and citizens living inside the State can never alter the Jewish laws and Jewish character of the state.

You see, forum members, there is a huge difference between democracy  vs  the democratic process being incorporated into a representative government.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "to actually be in the Holy Land, contemplating the life of Jesus, away from the commercialism "

Might be too late for that!

I vividly recall the first thing I saw in the Old City of Jerusalem shortly after the Six Day War was a large full color poster of Elvis hanging in the front window of an Arab merchandise stall.

The cancer has spread throughout the patient!     

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "it's idol worship which is forbidden in Judism and has no place in Israel "

True, yet we know that in ancient Israel some of our great Kings allowed their foreign wives to practice their own religions, and I don't see any devout Jews burning the Jewish Scriptures in protest!

Well, Jew!

How about it?

Is idol worship in Israel absolutely prohibited under any and all circumstances, or does the rule exclude the harems of Jewish Kings?

And, isn't it a fact that as long as the Jewish Scriptures mention these practices and people read about them that they will be repeated?

[MassuhDGoodName]

I love it when "the Jewish Taliban" who are already living in "The World To Come" studying at the feet of Moshiach [at least in their own minds and dreams], comes face to face with the REALITY of daily existence at a geographic location designated in Torah as The Land of Israel.

They continue to incorrectly refer to the modern day STATE of Israel  as "Israel " as if both labels accurately define  Eretz Yisrael of Torah as it will exist in The World To Come.

And even in Eretz Yisrael of Torah, the Children of Israel disobeyed Ha'Shem and left some "inhabitants of The Land" alive and living alongside them.

This mindset of "rigid absolutism" will last until its adherents all awaken one day living in a State of Israel with no revenue from tourism, no foreign trade, no income from revenue to run government, no communications with the non-Jewish world, and no religious practices allowed except their own.

This is the GREAT DILEMMA confronting those who advocate a Jewish State as opposed to a State full of Jews.

What worked two thousand years ago has no relevance in modern times.

Or, if you disagree, please elaborate on how such a system of statehood will work and survive.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Re:  "it's idol worship which is forbidden in Judism and has no place in Israel "

True, yet we know that in ancient Israel some of our great Kings allowed their foreign wives to practice their own religions, and I don't see any devout Jews burning the Jewish Scriptures in protest!

You speak of Solomon's misdeeds.  It turned out terrible for the Jews and Israel, resulting in the separation of Israel and Judah, and eventually the destruction of both kingdoms.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

Kings 1, Chapter 11:

    "King Solomon loved many Gentile women, such as the daughter of Pharaoh, Moabite, Amonite, Edomite, Sidonite, and Hittite women. They are Gentiles, about whom Hashem told the Children of Israel "Do not intermarry with them and do not let them intermarry with you, for they will surely influence you towards their religions." Those are the people that Solomon clung to in love. He had seven hundred queen-wives, and three hundred concubines, and these women influenced him.

    When Solomon grew old, his wives influenced him towards their gods, and thus his heart was not complete in his service of Hashem, as his father David's was....

    Hashem said to Solomon, Since this is the way you are, and you have not fully obeyed My covenant and My Laws that I commanded you, I shall tear part of the kingdom from you, and I will give it to one of your subjects. I shall not do this in your lifetime, for the sake of your father David. I shall tear it away from your son."

The misdeeds of the past may be repeated, but we should do our best to prevent them.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "The misdeeds of the past may be repeated, but we should do our best to prevent them. "

More easily done had Kahanists been the ones establishing the State back in '48.

But given the present day realities, my question is this:

How to create a viable Kahanist State out of what is present reality as The State of Israel?

I am asking for specifics set forth as a plan for action and success.

[Malchut]

Government exists to enforce contracts. The Israeli government is not enforcing some right, or repaying someone for saving a citizen. So, at a minimum I have a problem with this just from a government philosophy viewpoint. If the Israeli government wanted to do something for this miracle, the Israeli Ambassador could have a celebratory meal, or invite them for Hanukkah!

[TheCoon]

Or, if you disagree, please elaborate on how such a system of statehood will work and survive.

I think they believe when Israel is rid of filthy idol-worshipping Xtians, moozlims and other assorted avodazara-ing peoples the messiah will come and the state full of Jews known as Eretz Israel won't need things like tourism, economy, trade, man-made government, etc, etc.

Might be wrong though, seeing as I worship idols and work tirelessly to turn Jews away from their faith.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Solomon's misdeeds.  It turned out terrible for the Jews and Israel, resulting in the separation of Israel and Judah, and eventually the destruction of both kingdoms. "

So then, you do agree with me that any and all mention of Solomon must be expunged and removed from all Jewish Scriptures, correct?

Otherwise Jews will continue boasting of "the Wisdom of Shlomo!"

Last I heard, a Rabbi was telling me he was renowned during his time as "The Wisest Man on Earth!"

Now, YOU are telling me that the "Wisest Man on Earth" caused the destruction of his own Jewish Nation because he didn't even have the good sense to obey G-d!

Is there some irony here I haven't yet grasped?

Which one is it?

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "I think they believe when Israel is rid of filthy idol-worshipping Xtians, moozlims and other assorted avodazara-ing peoples the messiah will come and the state full of Jews known as Eretz Israel won't need things like tourism, economy, trade, man-made government, etc, etc. "

I see.     

[muman613]

Re:  "Solomon's misdeeds.  It turned out terrible for the Jews and Israel, resulting in the separation of Israel and Judah, and eventually the destruction of both kingdoms. "

So then, you do agree with me that any and all mention of Solomon must be expunged and removed from all Jewish Scriptures, correct?

Otherwise Jews will continue boasting of "the Wisdom of Shlomo!"

Last I heard, a Rabbi was telling me he was renowned during his time as "The Wisest Man on Earth!"

Now, YOU are telling me that the "Wisest Man on Earth" caused the destruction of his own Jewish Nation because he didn't even have the good sense to obey G-d!

Is there some irony here I haven't yet grasped?

Which one is it?

This is exactly what the lesson of Solomon is... That a person can get 'full of himself' and disregard the commandments of the Torah because he thinks he is 'wise enough' to second-guess Hashem... But the lesson which is taught is a very, very important one..

Do not discount the lesson of Solomon. It is essential that Jews learn from their history so that they do not repeat it.. The primary lesson is that we should not attempt to attach 'reasons' to mitzvot. Because the Torah gave a reason for the mitzvah of not having too many wives Solomon figured he could keep the mitzvah while still marrying so many wives...

http://www.ou.org/taryag/index/reasons/

Reasons vs. Lessons



In general, your humble author shies away from discussing the “reasons” for mitzvos, preferring to focus on the “lessons.” There are numerous reasons for this.

The Torah rarely gives reasons for the mitzvos. In one famous instance, it does. Deuteronomy 17:16-17 says:

    “The king shall not gather himself many horses, which would cause the people to return to Egypt in order to get horses, since G-d told you not to return that way again. Nor shall the king many wives for himself, as this will cause his heart to turn astray...”

Regarding these mitzvos, the reasons are overtly stated. Nevertheless, King Solomon, the wisest of all men, was able to err in them. The Talmud in Sanhedrin (21b) explains that Shlomo (Solomon), knowing the reasons, said, “I can gather many horses and I’ll just make sure the people don’t return to Egypt; I can gather many wives and just be careful not to turn astray.” Nevertheless, the people did return to Egypt to engage in the horse trade (see I Kings 10:29) and some of Shlomo’s many wives built idols in his household, for which he was considered responsible (see I Kings 11:4). So knowing the reasons for mitzvos can be dangerous, as it tempts one into thinking that the reasons don’t apply.

On the other hand, the Talmud in Brachos (33b) seems to disapprove of ascribing motivations to mitzvos whose reasons are unstated. It says that we should silence one who adds the words “Your mercy is even on the bird’s nest,” referring to the mitzvah to shoo away a mother bird before taking the young from the nest (Deuteronomy 22:6-7). The Gemara asks the reason for the objection and it answers along the lines of, “Who are we to decide that the reason for this mitzvah is G-d’s mercy? The reason is that He said so!”

So there are two motivations for us to avoid defining the reasons for the mitzvos: (1) it’s presumptuous and (2) to know the reasons for the mitzvos can lead one to focus on the reason to the exclusion of the behavior that G-d wants from us. (A famous example is that those who attribute kashrus to health reasons would argue that modern medicine renders those mitzvos moot, G-d forbid. If the reason for Shabbos is to rest, driving is more restful than walking, etc.) However, this position, is not universal.

The Rambam understands the objection of the Talmud differently. He says in his Commentary on the Mishna (Brachos 5:3) that the reason we silence one who ascribes the mitzvah of sending away the mother bird to mercy is because it’s simply inaccurate. “It’s not so,” the Rambam writes. “If it was because of mercy, then we would never be permitted to sacrifice animals at all. Rather, (sending the bird away) is a mitzvah we have been instructed without being given a reason.” The Rambam does not, however, object to analyzing the reasons of the mitzvos per se. He writes in Moreh HaNevuchim (The Guide for the Perplexed) 3:48, “It is one of two opinions of the Sages to say that there’s no reason for the mitzvos other than that G-d told us to do them. We, however, subscribe to the second opinion.” And you’ll see that Rambam, Nachmanides and the Sefer HaChinuch, among others, do discuss the reasons for the mitzvos, even for those not stated by G-d in the Torah.

Even the Rambam, however, treads carefully in this area. Recognizing the trap into which King Solomon fell, he sates, “If we knew the reasons underlying all the mitzvos, we would find excuses to do away with all of them… saying that G d only commanded one thing and forbade another because of such-and-such reason, therefore we will safeguard the reason and not have to do the mitzvah… This is why G-d did not reveal the reason behind most mitzvos, and the reasons for many others are beyond the comprehension of the average person…” (This appears at the end of his discussion of the aforementioned mitzvos of the king, which is the last mitzvah in the Rambam’s Sefer HaMitzvos – Negative Mitzvah #365.)

And so, despite our usual hesitancy to do so, we shall use the term “reasons” when discussing the mitzvos, at least insofar as we are citing the reasons stated by our authorities. Other observations, especially our own, will be considered lessons that can be derived from the mitzvos.

[MassuhDGoodName]

That's the right answer, muman613!     

[MassuhDGoodName]

On the other hand ...

A Lubavitcher Rabbi taught me that when it comes to "free will", national leaders do not have it, but are controlled by Ha'Shem.

So....

How does this relate to Shlomo Hamelech?

Did Ha'Shem make Shlomo sin on purpose, so Ha'Shem could destroy his nation, so that we could all learn a valuable lesson?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I don't think that Israeli taxpayers should pay for this. If they're going to go on vacation to Israel, it should be private money funding it only. I just didn't like the tone of wonga's post.

Me neither but at least he is an equal-opportunity anti-religious zealot. Usually he is bashing religious Jews. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.

Shut up. You are the Christian version of Muman or Ron.

Irish Zionist, we all respect your beliefs but you are not just stating them, but bashing other peoples' religions. Do you honestly believe that the world would be a better place if the only religions on earth besides Judaism were paganism and Islam? Do you believe you would care about Israel today if you were raised in the faith of your Stonehenge Druid ancestors? Do you honestly believe that a pagan Europe would be enlightened, progressive, and philo-Semitic? We have pagans of European descent today--people such as Incogman, David Duke, and Richard Spencer. Are you going to tell me that they are great Zionists?

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I might be talking out of my butt on this one so forgive me if I offend any of you on this take:

I think it's fine and all that these 33 miners come and visit Israel.  If they are Christian they aren't going to worship in synogogues Christianity.  They are going to existing churches wherever they might be in Jerusalem.  I doubt these miners have anything against Jews.

In the end of times when the Moshiach comes, in my opinion, righteous gentiles who happen to be Christian will know and pursue what is right in Judaism's eyes whether it is Noahidism or Judaism.

I love our righteous Christian gentiles.  Despite our disagreements in theology, you still believe in Gd and good moral things and for me that's sufficient for the time being.  I mean we can't agree on everything, right?  However, we can work together and discuss our differences respectably.

[Lisa]

Than you Dr. Dan for your post. 

I don't think Israeli taxpayers should foot the bill for this. 

On the other hand, I don't like the tone of Wonga's first post on this thread.  We Jews and Christians have different religious beliefs.  Wonga, you need to stop beating the Christian members over their heads about this. 

[TheCoon]

Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.

Shut up. You are the Christian version of Muman or Ron.

Irish Zionist, we all respect your beliefs but you are not just stating them, but bashing other peoples' religions. Do you honestly believe that the world would be a better place if the only religions on earth besides Judaism were paganism and Islam? Do you believe you would care about Israel today if you were raised in the faith of your Stonehenge Druid ancestors? Do you honestly believe that a pagan Europe would be enlightened, progressive, and philo-Semitic? We have pagans of European descent today--people such as Incogman, David Duke, and Richard Spencer. Are you going to tell me that they are great Zionists?

You are the phoniest Christian I've ever met in my entire life, Dr. Brennan Fan the way you let your fellow Christians get disrespected and attacked. You're nothing but a stupid Judas if there ever was one. I'll continue to stand up for my people, which doesn't include you, you little Eminem-worshipper.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You are the phoniest Christian I've ever met in my entire life, Dr. Brennan Fan the way you let your fellow Christians get disrespected and attacked. You're nothing but a stupid Judas if there ever was one. I'll continue to stand up for my people, which doesn't include you, you little Eminem-worshipper.

And Ron got mad when I compared the two of you.   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

IT'S A TRAP!

All related to Israel's new interpretation of Zionism as the Jews being nothing more than "Jewish Molemen" who dig underground to hide from the A-rabs!

Once Chile Con Carne and his gang arrive in Israel, they will be tricked by the Molim Yehudim into descending below ground to continue digging tunnels for their Jewish Taskmasters!

LOL.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Government exists to enforce contracts. "

You mean...like when the Sopranos put out a contract on somebody?

Governments exist to rub people out?         

[ItalianZionist]

Ruby don't you find how discusting this is? Jews celebrating Xmas in The Holy Land at Jewish Taxpayers expense!

I don't think that Israeli taxpayers should pay for this. If they're going to go on vacation to Israel, it should be private money funding it only. I just didn't like the tone of wonga's post.

But your still ok with celebrating Xmas in The Holy Land correct? This kind of idol worship is forbidden in Judism and should be outlawed in Israel.

IrishZionist  are you sure you're catholic? or is irish zionist your stage-name?

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "The Torah says point blank that the land will vomit out the Jewish inhabitants once they worship other gods... "

It most certainly does PROMISE that will happen.

That being so, prepare for the great vomiting out to come, because it is almost impossible to find any Jews in the State of Israel who are anything but secular agnostics, and that's the way it's been since the founding of the State.

Either that or Ha'Shem is cutting us a lot of slack lately.

The "founders" seem to have done a remarkable job of inculcating everyone there to consider Socialism the "end all"/"be all" of Judaism.

Yet, the Torah COMMANDS the Jew to live in Eretz Yisrael; even in a place without any other Jews - so is this another of the great dilemmas facing us?

Are we now told we MUST choose to live in Israel knowing full well that we will then be massacred and thrown out by barbarians?

You're just full of all the good answers, muman613, so I'm waiting until YOU make immediate aliyah in order that I have sufficient faith to follow your path!