Israeli High Court: Keep Torturing Yigal Amir

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

So by that logic, why don't you assassinate Netanyoyo?  He is also endangering the lives of all of Israel by not attacking Iran. Of course I don't mean that..nobody here should do such a thing...

By that logic - Netanyahu is even worse. We don't encourage Jews to break the law - but we never put it above Jewish lives and Torah, as we don't believe in "State religion". In the past it was called Fascism.

And if a Jew breaks state law and gets caught he shouldn't be jailed?  Even if breaking that law makes you happy?

If the State ruled that you must be dead, would you obey it?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

but no such law exists so it's a moot point..It has nothing to do with this.

It's not a moot point because Alex is showing you the absurdity of your argument which puts the State law above Jewish lives. Alex's example is merely showing you that by your logic, State law is above your life as well.

[Yaakov Mendel]

The Israeli High Court ruled that the inhumane torture of Jewish political prisoner Yigal Amir (15 years of complete solitary confinement!) must go on - while the smashers of Jewish children's heads such as Hezbollah mass murderer Samir Kuntar are freed from prison, joyously fat and with academic degrees

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141028

Yes it's obscene and it reveals how sick Israeli authorities are.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.

Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?

For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization.  You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves.  The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death.  Amir should be let free.

We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal. 

Interesting point.  I agree.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?   

It's more complicated than that.    The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so.   Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too.   But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?   

It's more complicated than that.    The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so.   Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too.   But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.

But there is a difference between realizing the practical Bolshevik punishment Jewish heroes of our time must face (and G-d will punish the Erev Rav for it) when fighting for the Jewish people, and agreeing with it. According to Dr. Dan, Chaim and Jonathan Pollard also should have been imprisoned for their heroic struggles for the Jewish people just bbecause they were violating the law.

[Dr. Dan]

Yes. By creating a law abiding movement. Luckily yigal killed that tyrant. We should celebrate every year.

He killed a head of state.  That is against the law in Israel.  He got caught was thrown in jail.  And no, he did not deserve to be tortured.

I didn't condemn Yigal Amir.. I am happy it happened...just like I am happy for what Baruch Goldstein did..and for him, if he were alive, he shouldn't be jailed because what he did was in self-defense.  Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.

Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.

Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?

For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization.  You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves.  The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death.  Amir should be let free.

We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.

Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.

If he did no crime why do you think he had to be imprisoned and tortured?

Putting the State above Jewish lives is Fascism. Who cares if the enemy of the Jewish people is a head of state or a birthday party clown?

So you are suggesting that every Jew in Israel who feels like it to hurt or kill erev rav Jews randomly?  I wish it was that simple...IT's not very practical.  I would rather people follow the law and elect those bastards out of office and then make laws to jail them.

I'm simply asking you one question: do you think the Jewish people had the right to defend themeselves from a treacherous, bloody tyrant?

[Yaakov Mendel]

Dr Dan,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean : when you say Yigal Amir committed a crime and had to be jailed, are you just stating a fact (he broke Israeli law, he has to serve a sentence) or are you also morally judging him (he killed the Israeli head of state, that's wrong, he deserves punishment) ?

[Dr. Dan]

but no such law exists so it's a moot point..It has nothing to do with this.

It's not a moot point because Alex is showing you the absurdity of your argument which puts the State law above Jewish lives. Alex's example is merely showing you that by your logic, State law is above your life as well.

But state law is not above my life.

[Dr. Dan]

Thank you Kwrbt

Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?   

It's more complicated than that.    The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so.   Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too.   But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Doctor, why do you put the Communist-state's "laws" above the Torah's laws?   

It's more complicated than that.    The current state's laws do exist and we are bound to them to a certain degree - one can't really expect to break them but not receive punishment for doing so.   Part of Amir's mesirat nefesh is serving out a punishment too.   But it is clearly something which we should make every effort to end and cut short so that he can be set free.

But there is a difference between realizing the practical Bolshevik punishment Jewish heroes of our time must face (and G-d will punish the Erev Rav for it), and agreeing with it.

It's an interesting question.   It seems to me he is justified by the halacha, so yes I do not agree with them punishing him.    

They certainly don't see it that way.   But if you argue to them within their framework (not with ours since they do not accept it or give it attention), then you certainly can draw up a rational case for why he should be let out now and given leniency after all this time, if not sooner.

It may be that some people conflate the two points of view.   I do agree that we need to keep a clear perspective on what the law should be despite what it currently is.

On the other hand, in the practical realm, arguing for his release to a public that accepts the bolshevik framework and not ours, and to a regime that of course does not accept ours, may require that we utilize their legal premises in order to deconstruct their own persecution of this hero which they do in the name of their "law."

[Dr. Dan]

Dr Dan,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean : when you say Yigal Amir committed a crime and had to be jailed, are you just stating a fact (he broke Israeli law, he has to serve a sentence) or are you also morally judging him (he killed the Israeli head of state, that's wrong, he deserves punishment) ?

Not morally judging amir chaim or any Jewish hero. They all have done the ultimate sacrifices.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Yes. By creating a law abiding movement. Luckily yigal killed that tyrant. We should celebrate every year.

The assasination took place after all Democratic options to prevent the arming of weapons to terrorists were taken and drained, including mass, peaceful demonstrations that were oppressed by violent, sadistic horsemen. None of these peaceful actions achieved anything besides broken heads of naive people like you. Israel is not a Democratic State for ideological rivals of the regime to take power or have influence.

But even according to Martin Indyk and Bill Clinton, the assasination prevented the total extermination of the Jewish people by Arab genocidal murderers whom Rabin was arming and funding. Had the Jewish people protested Rabin's war against the Jewish people legally as you suggest, none of the Israeli posters on this forum were alive to post here.

Yigal Amir risked his life and saved the live of millions of Jews, and instead of honoring him and thanking him for his brave devotion and love of Jews, you justify his oppression by the evil Bolshevik establishment. Just sick beyond words.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Morally, I think it's clear - he should not be in jail.   He was the lone wolf who tried to stem the tide of the massive tsunami.   

[Yaakov Mendel]

The assasination took place after all Democratic options to prevent the arming of weapons to terrorists were taken and drained, including mass, silent demonstrations that were oppressed by violent, sadistic horsemen. None of these law-abiding actions achieved anything besides broken heads of naive people like you.

I hear your point but then why are you involved in a law-abiding movement ?

But even according to Martin Indyk and Bill Clinton, the illegal assasination prevented the total extermination of the Jewish people by Arab genocidal murderers whom Rabin was arming and funding. Had the Jewish people protested Rabin's war against the Jewish people legally as you suggest, none of the Israeli posters on this forum were alive to post here.

We don't know that for sure. Once Rabin was dead, the Israeli establishment continued Rabin's policy of surrender and betrayal. Other puppets took over from Rabin. In 2000, Barak offered Arafat a state on a golden plate. What prevented the establishment of the "Palestinian" state in Eretz Israel is more the stupidity of Arabs, especially Arafat, than Rabin's assassination.
Non-violent protests can be much more effective than an isolated assassination if they are massive. Imagine that a vast majority of the people of Israel would engage in a campaign of civil disobedience to oppose the surrender of its land in Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem. No more transportation, no more businesses running, huge strikes and demonstrations. That would bring the Establishment down to its knees. That is what we ought to try to set off, in my opinion.

Yigal Amir risked his life and saved the live of millions of Jews, and instead of honoring him and thanking him for his brave devotion and love of Jews, you justify his oppression by the evil Bolshevik establishment. Just sick beyond words.

Dr Dan did not condemn Yigal Amir. You are twisting his words.

[Dr. Dan]

Aw that's a shame.  You try to insult a veteran member. You're lucky I'm a nice guy and don't insult you back.

I respect those who give up their lives to save the Jewish people. I know the least I can do us work hard in my profession and donate to this cause.

Ron when you grow older I hope you understand the definition of respect. What you are doing is attempting to entrap me. This is what shabak does to the heroic Jews.

 

Yes. By creating a law abiding movement. Luckily yigal killed that tyrant. We should celebrate every year.

The assasination took place after all Democratic options to prevent the arming of weapons to terrorists were taken and drained, including mass, peaceful demonstrations that were oppressed by violent, sadistic horsemen. None of these peaceful actions achieved anything besides broken heads of naive people like you. Israel is not a Democratic State for ideological rivals of the regime to take power or have influence.

But even according to Martin Indyk and Bill Clinton, the assasination prevented the total extermination of the Jewish people by Arab genocidal murderers whom Rabin was arming and funding. Had the Jewish people protested Rabin's war against the Jewish people legally as you suggest, none of the Israeli posters on this forum were alive to post here.

Yigal Amir risked his life and saved the live of millions of Jews, and instead of honoring him and thanking him for his brave devotion and love of Jews, you justify his oppression by the evil Bolshevik establishment. Just sick beyond words.

[Secularbeliever]

Yigal Amire doesn't deserve that kind of punishment...if anything, he has served his punishment and should be let go.

Punished for what? for killing a brutal, mass-murdering, treacherous tyrant?

For breaking the law...that's all..we are a law abiding organization.  You break the law, you do jail time.. His punishment is worse than what he deserves.  The murderous Muslims should get torture and then death.  Amir should be let free.

We're a law abiding organization - therefore we don't encourage illegal actions, but on the other hand, we do not condemn them. Condeming a Jew who risked his life for the Jewish people is the worst kind of betrayal.

Morally, the anti-Semitic Bolshevik secular law means nothing to us. Only the Torah law.

Where does Torah law endorse assassinations?  I am no fan of Rabin and wish Amir well but he did not help the Jews with his action.

[Secularbeliever]

Yitzchak Rabin was endangering the lives of millions of Jews - he was about to give in Judea and Samaria, including Jerusalem and the Golan Heights (according to Martin Indyk) to Arab mass-murdering terrorists he was funding, training and arming. Even Bill Clinton admitted last month that had Rabin lived, in 3 years the entire Yosh (Judea and Samaria) region including Jerusalem would have been given in to the Arab terrorists and would have become a base for the genocidal, Nazi, fanatical Jew murderers of Arafat. Had this happened, Israel would have been wiped off the face of the earth and the Jews would have faced a second Holocaust, this time on their own land. <<

HOw does this square with reports that Rabin was going  to back out of Oslo.  This one is probably more accurate but I don't believe Peres cancelled any of Rabin's plans as a result of an assassination.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I hear your point but then why are you involved in a law-abiding movement ?

Where's the contradiction? we're debating the morals of illegal actions, not encourage them. But we never condemn them, and there's nothing illegal about teaching the outcomes of such actions.

We don't know that for sure. Once Rabin was dead, the Israeli establishment continued Rabin's policy of surrender and betrayal. Other puppets took over from Rabin. In 2000, Barak offered Arafat a state on a golden plate. What prevented the establishment of the "Palestinian" state in Eretz Israel is more the stupidity of Arabs, especially Arafat, than Rabin's assassination.

What Barak did 5 years after later does not matter. By this logic, we shouldn't praise the brave Jewish Maccabee heroes who fought against the Hellenist traitors and the Greeks because they didn't smash the Arabs as well. And even this example is not enough to explain the absurdity of this claim. The assasination of Rabin couldn't eliminate the entire regime, which will forever fight for Israel's elimination. But the assasination of the most powerful tyrant Israel had since Ben-Gurion saved Israel did save Israel back then. With Rabin alive, the Oslo process would have been completed and so is the Arab's genocidal war against Israel and the Jewish people, G-d forbid.     

Non-violent protests can be much more effective than an isolated assassination if they are massive.  Imagine that a vast majority of the people of Israel would engage in a campaign of civil disobedience to oppose the surrender of its land in Judea and Samaria and Jerusalem. No more transportation, no more businesses running, huge strikes and demonstrations. That would bring the Establishment down to its knees. That is what we ought to try to set off, in my opinion.

This is exactly what the Israeli public was doing. When Rabin went for Oslo, the public opinion opposed, mass demonstrations were taken place constantly (and ending with broken heads for the peaceful demonstrators), and the national suicide process was taking place big time.

When we finally burried Rabin the public opinion favored Oslo - and yet the process was significantly delayed.

After the Oslo War (second Intifada) the public opinion was yet again against national suicide - but Sharon succeeded in carrying out the mass expulsion of Jews from Gush Katif and its handing over to the Hamas murderers, with the peaceful demonstrations and marches brutally oppressed.

Conclusion: in order to carry out suicidal plans, the Left needs a strong "hawkish" leader, such as Begin, Rabin, Sharon and Bibi.

http://jtf.org/israel/israel.jewish.civil.war.part.three.htm

Dr Dan did not condemn Yigal Amir. You are twisting his words.

This is what I understood from this:

Rabin wasn't going to Yigal Amir and kill him, that's why it's different..and because he broke the law, he had to get jail..but now he should be free.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Aw that's a shame.  You try to insult a veteran member. You're lucky I'm a nice guy and don't insult you back.

I respect those who give up their lives to save the Jewish people. I know the least I can do us work hard in my profession and donate to this cause.

Ron when you grow older I hope you understand the definition of respect. What you are doing is attempting to entrap me. This is what shabak does to the heroic Jews.

Come on Dr. Dan, where did I tell you to break the law? we were simply discussing the outcomes and morals of illegal actions. I didn't tell you to go and shoot traitors.

And I did not insult you (at least I didn't intend to). But your last sentence was as insulting as calling me a Nazi.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Actually perhaps I misspoke.   I don't really know what the halacha would be in this case.    (I think I was confusing this situation with Baruch Goldstein who definitely was backed up by the halacha).  Has this been discussed anywhere?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Where does Torah law endorse assassinations? 

Ever heard of Din Rodef and Din Moser? of Moshe, King David, The Maccabees, Jehu son of Nimshi, Pinchas, the Irgun and Lehi, etc etc etc etc?

If you think Din Rodef is cancelled, you must oppose killing Arab Nazis. The problem is that you don't think so, you just believe in State Worship (Fascism) which gives the prime minister of Israel the sanctity under which he's allowed to to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. But between Fascism and Judaism there is no connection.

he did not help the Jews with his action.

Refuted already.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Actually perhaps I misspoke.   I don't really know what the halacha would be in this case.    (I think I was confusing this situation with Baruch Goldstein who definitely was backed up by the halacha).  Has this been discussed anywhere?

I would be more than blessed to participate in such a dicussion and back up Yigal's heroism Halachically.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

HOw does this square with reports that Rabin was going  to back out of Oslo.

Rabin also said he was against it before he did it. Who cares what his populist, attention-seeking daughter said? And why the hell are you believing this garbage?

This one is probably more accurate but I don't believe Peres cancelled any of Rabin's plans as a result of an assassination.

I answered this in my response to Yaakov.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

If ones thinks Judaism opposes assasination, he must oppose killing Arab Nazis. The problem is that he doesn't think so, he just believes in State Worship (Fascism) which gives the prime minister of Israel the sanctity under which he's allowed to do everything, including mass expulsion and murder of Jews, and the extermination of the Jewish people. But between Fascism and Judaism there is no connection.