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Rashi on Daniel 7:25: Moshiach in 2011?!

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british bulldog:
eve of redemption means, that at the rambans time, 6pm on the paradigm clock was near, and the revelation of of the geula would not commence until 6 am on the clock, ie. near 1400 = 6 pm...and 5500 =  6 am..corresponding to the 6th day of creation.
if you notice, the alternative time of the ramban (3830 + 1290 + 400 = 5520 ) is the time of the revelation of the beginning of mashiach ben ephraim, ie. the vilna gaons kol hator, as it began essentially in 5520...this time period was forseen by the gra, and the ramban, as yet another interp. of time, times, and a half (4000, 1000, 500 = 5500) this is explained in kol hator, and the ramban, sefer geulah. this was a great year for many, as it was 1739, industrial revolution, the gra, baal shem tov, ramchal, sefardi masters, etc...also predicted in the zohar [wellsprings will be opened up from 5500 until 5600, which many believe were] thus the ramban saw, that as 6 pm, closed with him, he knew it would reawaken at 6 am ( the gra says 41 yrs 8 months is an hour) this was also said in the shiur...ie 5500, vs 5520. when one reads sefer geulah, and does the calculation reaching 5520, it is like the ramban describes the pratim of the sefer kol hator, in terms of moshiach ben ephraim...which i believe there was a kabbalistic mesorah, that 6 am would be significant in the geulah, and the gra realized that potential in himself, leading the way to what would be the light of moshiach ben ephraim, kol hator. in terms of in its time, i will hasten it. (5500- 6000, 250 [from 500] = 5750) then when you take the additional 20 years into mind, as the rambans cheshbon dictates, and corresponds to the year of kol hator, 5520, brings you to 5770. the point of the shiur, was to show continuity amongst the sources, and their predictions were and are still alive, and in unison. and when we add in, ad v ad v klal, and ad vlo ad vklal, to the cheshbon, it gives you a differential of almost 2 full years. thus the calculations, are shayach until 5774. based on what i see in the world, there is no reason to doubt this cheshbon...all the pieces are present, and even more so now than ever.. do i have any vested interest in "this year"...not really...it just seems logical, and the rishonim all point to this year...as i did the cheshbon on its simple calculation level, just to have it make sense..which was no less an accomplishment...to finally have a working "pshat" of their words. i encourage you, to listen to the shiur...and please offer your own interpretation of rashis words, the rambans words if you would like....or drop it if that makes you happy. my cavanah is to understand these rishonim...and i achieved that...if what i found is wrong..so be it...whether my understanding, or it be their cheshbonos...either way, i will patiently wait untill Hashem decides to bring the geulah, as we all will, whether we like it or not. it just gives me extra incentive, to anticipate (tzipia le yeshua, as it says in shabbos...to anticipate the geulah) with a little more cavanah and enthusiasm...especially thinking that many minds over the years were looking forward to the years we are in, as i see it, and at the very least, we will be one year closer to moshiach, when 5771 comes and goes, assuming he does not come. all the way until 5774. if in 5774, there is no moshiach, and the world still exists...the it is safe to say that these calculations are vadai wrong, and  a new approach should be taken, and the sources should be reviewed, as they were not intended for what they were used, on an apparent level. of course in 5870, these ideas will become rearroused, and rightly so..as this is the mashmaut of these sources. this story is long, and opinions are many...and in closing, enjoy 5771, for better or worse, but at least with a little bit of anticipation and enthusiasm, as it is chaval to say the movie is not worth watching, when it has only just started...it may get best picture...yet it may not, and we all know the ramifications either way...in my opinion, 5771-5774 will be exciting years....its an opinion...it was learned out, leshma...and so far it worked, and is working...no more no less.

muman613:
Shalom BB,

As I initially stated, it is very interesting to attempt to calculate these times. And I surely await Moshiach every day, and I look for signs that he is here. But I find it difficult to believe every calculation which a student or teacher of Torah brings. The best strategy is to try to bring Moshiach by hastening his coming, through deeds of kindness, observance of the mitzvot such as Tefillin, TzitTzits, Tzedakah and Tefilla, and of course keeping the Shabbat. By teaching others the Torah which we learn we also hasten the coming of Moshiach.

I find what you wrote very interesting, although difficult to read due to lack of formatting. It would be good to use paragraphs and capitalization in such a discussion.

muman613:
http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/metho68/02metho.htm

Shiur #02: Geula and Tefila

By Rav Moshe Taragin

 

 

            The gemara in Berakhot (4b) asserts the value of juxtaposing tefilla - the recitation of the shemone esrei - with a recollection of redemption.  The ideal of "someich geula le-tefilla," of twining a mention of past geula with actual tefilla - if executed properly, merits entry into the next world (muvtach lo she-hu ben olam ha-ba).  The exact benefit and purpose of this juxtaposition remains unclear.

 

            In his commentary to the gemara in Berakhot (4b), Rashi cites a Yerushalmi in Berakhot as the source of this rule.  The Yerushalmi identifies a "superior" form of prayer and contrasts it with an "inferior" one.  A prayer offered without introduction is an inferior prayer, as it is not predicated on any prior relationship and is therefore less dependable or even valuable.  However, when we first build a relationship with Hashem by mentioning geula and only subsequently lodge our requests, the tefilla is "superior." According to Rashi, geula and tefilla are juxtaposed in order to HEIGHTEN the quality of prayer.  Employing geula as a preamble to prayer enhances prayer's caliber.

 

            Rashi reinforces this notion in a comment on the gemara in Berakhot 31, which urges entering tefilla in a state of "happiness."  Though the literal reading of the gemara addresses the mentality that should frame prayer, Rashi attempts to concretize the gemara's point by suggesting certain experiences which can enable a proper state of mind prior to tefilla.  He cites two examples of texts whose recital would ease anxiety and facilitate a superior tefilla.  One example is describing geula, while a second example is the recitation of ashrei.  The mentioning of geula, then, is functionally parallel to ashrei, as they both serve as a preface to tefilla.  There is a subtle difference between the function of geula as a relationship builder, as Rashi notes on Berakhot 4b, and the role that Rashi attributes to it as a comforting pretext to tefilla (31a).  Either way, geula serves as a preface, enabling and enhancing the tefilla.

 

            By contrast, the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah articulate the fusion of geula and tefilla quite differently.  The sections of geula texts recall our liberation from Mitzrayim and the ensuing submission to the Divine will; immediate prayer – itself a form of worship – REINFORCES that submission to Hashem's will.  Alternatively, an immediate tefilla corroborates the FAITH we place in Hashem as the Answerer of our prayers.  This is a fitting conclusion to the discussion of geula and our enduring faith in His interest in and ability to redeem us.  Unlike Rashi, who viewed geula as a preface to tefilla, the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah viewed tefilla as an EPILOGUE to geula.  Tefilla recited immediately after describing geula reinforces some of the fundamental motifs of the redemptive experience.  That we pray every morning is a mitzva in and of itself (either Biblical or Rabbinic).  The scheduling of tefilla immediately subsequent to geula, however, incidentally highlights some of the basic motifs of geula.  In this respect, prayer is drafted in the "service" of geula.

             There is an interesting dispute, the premise of which may strengthen the position of the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah.  The gemara in Berakhot (4b) records a machloket between Rabbi Yochanan, who requires this twinning even at Ma'ariv, and Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, who waives this requirement for Ma'ariv.  Explaining the machloket, the gemara first suggests that the argument revolves around the history of the event commemorated in "geula": did the redemption from Egypt begin at night or only occur at daybreak?  Rabbi Yochanan believes that the geula began at night, and therefore he requires the juxtaposition at night during Ma'ariv, while Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi disagrees. Alternatively, the debate may not be historical but nominal; each agrees that the geula began at night and came in full force during the day.  They argue as to whether the preliminary stages at night were sufficient to deem this miracle as having begun at night.

 

Either way, one must wonder about the RELEVANCE of this issue if geula is merely a convenient "lead-in" for prayer.  If Rashi is correct and geula functions as an introduction to our tefilla, we should insert geula as a preface independent of the timing of the actual redemption. If we assume, on the other hand, that the pairing of geula and tefilla is for the sake of our discussion of geula, perhaps we can argue that this association is only mandated during the primary moment of reliving geula.  Since, at least according to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, we relive geula exclusively during the day, the geula-tefilla twinning is unnecessary at night.

 

            Tosafot in Berakhot (4b) mention an interesting position of Rav Amram Ga'on that may indicate – as Rashi suggested – that this twinning actually serves tefilla's interest.  Rav Amram Ga'on comments on our custom of reciting kaddish between the evening discussion of geula and shemoneh esrei, severing the juxtaposition. Since Ma'ariv is voluntary (reshut), we are excused from connecting geula and tefilla, and we intentionally insert kaddish to break the continuity and demonstrate the lesser status of Ma'ariv.  Rabbi Yochanan's aforementioned debate with Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi regarding the need for this association at night revolved around the timing of the original geula and had little to do with the halakhic status of tefillat Ma'ariv.  Rav Amram Gaon introduces a new variable to help determine the requirement of the twinning between geula and tefilla at night: only OBLIGATORY tefillot require this twinning, while voluntary ones do not.

 

            According to the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah, the juxtaposition of geula and tefilla has little to do with actual tefilla.  Whenever we study the lessons of geula and target certain ideological truths, we underscore those truths with a consequent tefilla.  The fact that the prayer being recited is voluntary should not exonerate us form reinforcing the lessons of geula through a tefilla.  Rav Amram Ga'on's position seems to be predicated upon the view of Rashi - geula aids us in preparing for tefilla, but this preamble was only instituted during a tefilla of obligation and not a voluntary one.

 

            The ensuing shiur will iy'H address a related issue: may geula and tefilla be disassociated to serve alternate purposes? 

british bulldog:
should one not attempt to understand rashi, ramban, gra, and zohar? should we write them off because we dont so to speak understand them? should we then not be surprised to understand them and realize that they all agree? should we equally not be enthusiastic to see that we are in the year that they proclaim? no one invented this concept of calculation...it was given to daniel, and since then people have tried to understand it. who said the sugia is dead? and as i see it, we are in the sugia now...and if the calculations are wrong, then the sugia still continues...mind you, all i have done was plug in the numbers brought down by the rishonim...did you listen to the shiur to see that is what it is about? or is this discussion theoretical? because if you have listened to it, i would love to  hear how you differ with my pshat of the pratim given in the respective sources. this has nothing to do with bringing moshiach. this has to do with tzipia leyeshua, as i understand it. and i see nothing wrong with doing that mitzva, leshma, and b'simcha...and making it lamysa...which i assure i will do until moshiach comes or 120, which ever comes first..and as you said...every generation has signs..therefore what is the harm with noting an apparent sign? certainly signs are good when based on truth, ie. rishonim, chazal, psukim, etc.  as for bringing moshiach, well that seems to be the task at hand does it not? how about fullfilling the torah, that would be a start. of course we all disagree about what the torah wants from us. in that case, to each his own. and hatzlacha raba. may one of us figure it out soon, spread the word, and bring moshiach...and if you think the status quo is working, and has been working, but that it just takes time, no chiddushim necessary, then hatzlacha raba to you too. we all have an emunah, and the torah summarized is tzaddik bemunaso yichyeh...my emunah tells me to understand rishonim. i did that. my emunah is to share that knowledge b simcha, in the knowledge that an age old machlokes and source of doubt, is in fact not a machlokes and can be viewed as chizuk and strengthening our emunah, and in our sages...at the very least, rashi saying 5771/2010, as opposed to 1405, as well as other rishonim mentioned, makes me smile a little brighter...and maybe they knew a little more than we give them credit for. torah and her sages are meant to be understood, and not to ridicule those who attempt and for the time being have succeeded in understanding...if you would like to pussul this shiur in 5775, you wont be able to, for i will already have done so, happily. yet that means moshiach didnt come, sadily...then as i said...reconfigure, put the pieces together, in an even stronger fashion...and i am sure Hashem will provide the kelim, to make the klals emunah even stronger than before...so we can greet moshiach, and or have the capacity to get to 6000. and at erev 6000, no moshiach what will the am say? they will say, lets try to configure and understand what is going on..as calculations are just part of the briah, as we all subscribe to the 6000 years  notion, as moshe coming in the midst of the 6th hour notion at sinai, etc. calcualtion is part of torah, it was given to daniel for a reason, and it is torah. mind you, daniel himself, the calculator...calculated, errored, and reconfigured, ie. 70 years of galus bavel. in closing, the goal is to understand, torah in general...when we can begin to go down that alley, maybe then we can understand what Hashem wants from us, whatever it is that hasnt been done, and that we are not doing. there are no answers until the trial is over. but to not participate out of complexity and difficulty, i do not believe is the answer. nor is it appropriate to proclaim "the answer" when it is mere speculation. but there is the sharing of emunah, and the torah we percieve and on some level believe we understand. my emunah, and understanding is that we are in the process of geulah, and that it is very near, most likely by 5774, as predicted/believed/forseen/or even guessed by sages, or misinterpreted "students" of torah...which if the later is true, then rashi and ramban said the geulah was many many years ago unfullfilled...and to me that is depressing, of katnei emanah, and a lessening of the gadlus of rishonim and their messorah. this has nothing to do with being right. it has to do with what my eyes have seen and are seeing. and my emunah is to believe that we are in it now. and as of date, nothing has led me to believe otherwise. so i will continue down this path...my emunah, between me and God, which i have chosen to share with those interested in listening to a simple torah shiur, about rishonim, and their agreed stance on when they perceived through tradition going back to daniel about when the geulah would come. i hope to those who listened to the shiur, that it gave you simcha, chizuk, and a desire to understand what Hashem wants from us, in that we can bring the geulah, not only "in its own time", but in the fashion of "i will hasten it", producing the Kiddush Hashem, that we are all after: to Understand Hashem, His Torah, and His People....sof mysa, machshava techila...may it be soon.

wonga66:
Katz's calculation based on a close reading of Rashi appears to be 3830+1335+600+6 = 5771

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