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Rashi on Daniel 7:25: Moshiach in 2011?!

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wonga66:
Don't come down too hard on Rabbi David Katz!

http://www.israel613.com/GEULA1.htm

CALCULATING THE DATE OF MASHIACH'S COMING

"Making calculations is perfectly acceptable according to many great rabbis of the past, and many did exactly that. For example, according to the Abarbanel, it is only forbidden to make the calculation based upon astrology; however, it is permissible to calculate a date based upon Tanach (Ma’ayeni HaYeshuah 1:2). The Ramban held that the prohibition of the Talmud only applied to earlier generations; now that we are on the eve of redemption, there is no prohibition (Sefer HaGeulah, Ma’amer 4). The Malbim concurs, and provides the following analogy to explain his opinion: The situation is like that of a father and son traveling a long distance. As they start out, the son begins to ask when they will arrive, and of course the father does not answer. However, as they near the town, the son asks the same question, and this time the father readily answers that it is only a short while before they reach their destination. So too it is with us: now that the time is clearly approaching, we cannot help but notice and interpret the signs all around us that tell of the impending geulah ... As the time of the keitz grows nearer, the doubts will become smaller, and at the keitz, all doubts will be removed ... As the time grows closer, the uncertainty recedes in the wake of the increasingly “abounding wisdom” (Introduction to Daniel). The Maggid of Dubno used a similar analogy as well. The Zohar even states that it is not G-d’s will to reveal the arrival date of the Moshiach, but when the date draws near, even children will be able to make the calculation "

muman613:
It is clear that Moshiach can arrive at any time. Hashems prophet Isaiah tells us that Moshiach will come in his time, or it can be hastened through our behavior. I heard this concept in Rabbi Richmans latest shuir on next weeks Parasha... I found this concept in a page from Sichos In English:


http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/mashiach/05.htm

Date of Moshiachs Coming

The actual date of the Messianic redemption is a guarded mystery unknown to man.[69] It will happen "in its time" (Isaiah 60:22), predetermined from the beginning of creation. This ultimate ketz (time for the 'end') is unconditional: it does not depend on Israel's merit, as it is said, "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it.." (Isaiah 48:11); "I wrought for My Name's sake that it should not be profaned in the eyes of the nations." (Ezekiel 20:9)[70]

Even so, the wording of Isaiah 60:22 seems to display a contradiction by stating "in its time I will hasten it": "in its time" means a set date; "I will hasten it" means that it may occur earlier, before "its time." The contradiction is resolved as follows: "If they are worthy - 'I will hasten it;' if not - 'in its time.' "[71]

The implication is clear: Mashiach can come any day, even before the predetermined date: "This day - if you will listen to His voice!" (Psalms 95:7)[72] Every generation has a special ketz of its own, for, as stated, Mashiach is alive and present in every generation, albeit concealed.[73] He is ready to be revealed at a moment's notice.[74] In the course of history prior to "its time" there are especially auspicious times when it is easier to effect his coming. To take advantage of these, to hasten the redemption, that depends completely on us.[75]


--- Quote ---Notes:

  69. (Back to text) See above, note 29.

  70. (Back to text) Zohar Chadash, Tikunim, 95b. Cf. Shemot Rabba 25:12 (cited below, note 81).

  71. (Back to text) Sanhedrin 98a. Yerushalmi, Ta'anit 1:1.

  72. (Back to text) Cf. Zohar Chadash, Tikunim 95b, that every generation has its own special ketz, subject to Israel's merit (cf. Even Shelemah 11:9). Abarbanel notes that the history of the world is divisible into three periods of premature, contingent, and mature: the first stage is premature for the redemption; the second is one of continuous potential for the redemption, subject to Israel's merits; while the third and final stage is the one of the final ketz, the definite date of the actual redemption. Yeshu'ot Meshicho, Part I, p. 11b; and ibid., Iyun Harishon, ch. 1, end of p. 18b. Cf. Sanhedrin 97b, "Before that do not expect him; afterwards you may await him;" and cf. below, note 122. This serves also as one explanation why the redemption did not yet occur, in spite of the infinitely greater piety and saintliness of our ancestors; see Chida, Petach Einayim on Sanhedrin 98a; and below, ch. VIII.

  73. (Back to text) See above, ch. IV-B.

  74. (Back to text) See Sanhedrin 98a "he unties and rebandages each bandage separately, saying, 'Should I be wanted, I must not be delayed;' " Rashi: he does not treat two sores together, thinking 'if I need to go and redeem Israel, I will not delay because of bandaging two sores.'

  75. (Back to text) This may explain why many sages calculated specific dates for the Messianic redemption. They did so in spite of the Talmudic disapproval of such practice lest disillusionment lead to despair: people may say, "since the calculated time has arrived but Mashiach has not come, he will never come." (Sanhedrin 97b; and see Or Hatorah-Na"ch, vol. I, p. 183f.) Yet those who calculated dates for the ketz included the greatest sages and saints throughout the ages, like R. Saadiah Gaon, Rashi, Ba'alei Tossafot, Ramban, Abarbanel, R. Isaac Luria etc. (see Mayanei Hayeshu'ah I:ch. 1-2; and R. Reuven Margolius' glosses on Teshuvot Min Hashamayim, sect. 72, pp. 80-83). Rambam, after citing the Talmudic injunction in his code and elaborating on it in his Igeret Teyman, himself offers in the latter (ch. 3) a date passed on to him by his ancestors! Ramban confronts the problem by stating that the Talmudic prohibition was but for a limited time only and no longer applies to the present era of ikvot Meshicha. (See his Sefer Hage'ulah, ed. Chavel, p. 289f., and see there also pp. 262 and 263). Cf. below, note 122. Various sources explain that all these were in fact true predictions, reflecting especially auspicious times. Mystics state that these dates were in fact actualized, though so far, unfortunately, only in spiritual dimensions not perceived on the manifest level of our reality. (Kuntres Perush Hamilot, ch. 27 (p. 15b). See also Maamarei Admur Hazaken - Haketzarim, p. 212; Bnei Yisas'char, Sivan V:19; Ateret Tzvi on Zohar II:10a. Cf. Bet Elokim, Sha'ar Hatefilah, ch. 17.)
--- End quote ---

Rabbi Richman on Vayechi : http://koshertube.com/videos/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=5&task=videodirectlink&id=1014

muman613:
More directly here is a portion of the relevant Talmud Sanhedrin 97b:


http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_97.html#PARTb

R. Hanan b. Tahlifa sent [word] to R. Joseph: I once met a man who possessed a scroll written in Hebrew in Assyrian characters.7  I said to him: 'Whence has this come to thee?' He replied, 'I hired myself as a mercenary in the Roman army, and found it amongst the Roman archives. In it is stated that four thousand, two hundred and thirty8-one years after the creation the world will be orphaned.9  [As to the years following,] some of them will be spent in the war of the great sea monsters,10  and some in the war of Gog and Magog, and the remaining [period] will be the Messianic era, whilst the Holy One, blessed be He, will renew his world only after seven thousand years.' R. Abba the son of Raba said: The statement was after five thousand years.

It has been taught; R. Nathan said: This verse pierces and descends to the very abyss:11  For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though he tarry, wait for him; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.12  Not as our Masters, who interpreted the verse, until a time and times and the dividing of time;13  nor as R. Simlai who expounded, Thou feedest them with the bread of tears; and givest them tears to drink a third time;14  nor as R. Akiba who expounded, Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth:15  but the first dynasty [sc. the Hasmonean] shall last seventy years, the second [the Herodian], fifty two, and the reign of Bar Koziba16  two and a half years.17

What is meant by 'but at the end it shall speak [we-yafeah] and not lie?' — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be18  the bones of those who calculate the end.19  For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you.20  But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it.21  But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him.22

Abaye said: The world must contain not less than thirty-six righteous men in each generation who are vouchsafed [the sight of] the Shechinah's countenance, for it is written, Blessed are all they that wait lo23  [for him]; the numerical value of 'lo' is thirty-six. But that is not so, for did not Raba say: The row [of righteous men immediately] before the Holy One, blessed be He, consists of eighteen thousand,24  for it is written, it shall be eighteen thousand round about?25  — That is no difficulty: the former number [thirty-six] refers to those who see Him through a bright speculum, the latter to those who contemplate him through a dim one.26  But are there as many? Did not Hezekiah say in the name of R. Jeremiah on the authority of R. Simeon b. Yohai: I have seen the sons of heaven,27  and they are but few; if there are a thousand, I and my son are included; if a hundred, I and my son are included; and if only two, they are myself and my son? — There is no difficulty: the former number [thirty-six] refers to those who enter [within the barrier to contemplate the Shechinah] with permission; the latter [uncertain number] to those who may enter without permission.

Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds. But Samuel maintained: it is sufficient for a mourner to keep his [period of] mourning.28  This matter is disputed by Tannaim: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed; if not, they will not be redeemed. R. Joshua said to him, if they do not repent, will they not be redeemed! But the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a king over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, whereby Israel shall engage in repentance, and he will thus bring them back to the right path.29  Another [Baraitha] taught: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed, as it is written, Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings.30  R. Joshua said to him, But is it not written, ye have sold yourselves for naught; and ye shall be redeemed without money?31  Ye have sold yourselves for naught, for idolatry; and ye shall be redeemed without money — without repentance and good deeds. R. Eliezer retorted to R. Joshua, But is it not written, Return unto me, and I will return unto you?32  R. Joshua rejoined — But is it not written, For I am master over you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion?33  R. Eliezer replied, But it is written, in returning and rest shall ye be saved.34  R. Joshua replied, But is it not written, Thus saith the Lord, The Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nations abhorreth, to a servant of rulers,

muman613:
And even more chilling is the Talmuds description of the generation prior to the coming of Moshiach, known as the 'Birthpangs of Moshiach'. I have learned about this before, but I find it interesting in light of this thread:


http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_97.html
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Raba said: I used to think at first that there is no truth in the world.21  Whereupon one of the Rabbis, by name of R. Tabuth — others say, by name of R. Tabyomi — who, even if he were given all the treasures of the world, would not lie, told me that he once came to a place called Kushta,22  in which no one ever told lies, and where no man ever died before his time. Now, he married one of their women, by whom he had two sons. One day his wife was sitting and washing her hair, when a neighbour came and knocked at the door. Thinking to himself that it would not be etiquette [to tell her that his wife was washing herself], he called out, 'She is not here.' [As a punishment for this] his two sons died. Then people of that town came to him and questioned him, 'What is the cause of this?' So he related to them what had happened. 'We pray thee,' they answered, 'quit this town, and do not incite Death against us.'23

It has been taught: R. Nehorai said: in the generation when Messiah comes, young men will insult the old, and old men will stand before the young [to give them honour]; daughters will rise up against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law. The people shall be dog-faced, and a son will not be abashed in his father's presence.

It has been taught, R. Nehemiah said: in the generation of Messiah's coming impudence will increase, esteem be perverted,24  the vine yield its fruit, yet shall wine be dear,25  and the Kingdom will be converted to heresy26  with none to rebuke them. This supports R. Isaac, who said: The son of David will not come until the whole world is converted to the belief of the heretics. Raba said: What verse [proves this]? it is all turned white: he is clean.27

Our Rabbis taught: For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself of his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left:28  the son of David will not come until denunciators are in abundance.29  Another interpretation [of their power is gone]: until scholars are few. Another interpretation: until the [last] perutah has gone from the purse. Yet another interpretation: until the redemption is despaired of, for it is written, there is none shut up or left, as — were it possible [to say so] — Israel had neither Supporter nor Helper. Even as R. Zera, who, whenever he chanced upon scholars engaged thereon [I.e., in calculating the time of the Messiah's coming], would say to them: I beg of you, do not postpone it, for it has been taught: Three come unawares:30  Messiah, a found article and a scorpion.31

R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.32  Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.33

It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,' and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day,34  meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath — 35 and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.36

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation;37  two thousand years the Torah flourished;38  and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era,39
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:

--- Quote from: wonga66 on December 12, 2010, 07:58:40 PM ---Don't come down too hard on Rabbi David Katz!

http://www.israel613.com/GEULA1.htm

CALCULATING THE DATE OF MASHIACH'S COMING

"Making calculations is perfectly acceptable according to many great rabbis of the past, and many did exactly that. For example, according to the Abarbanel, it is only forbidden to make the calculation based upon astrology; however, it is permissible to calculate a date based upon Tanach (Ma’ayeni HaYeshuah 1:2). The Ramban held that the prohibition of the Talmud only applied to earlier generations; now that we are on the eve of redemption, there is no prohibition (Sefer HaGeulah, Ma’amer 4). The Malbim concurs, and provides the following analogy to explain his opinion: The situation is like that of a father and son traveling a long distance. As they start out, the son begins to ask when they will arrive, and of course the father does not answer. However, as they near the town, the son asks the same question, and this time the father readily answers that it is only a short while before they reach their destination. So too it is with us: now that the time is clearly approaching, we cannot help but notice and interpret the signs all around us that tell of the impending geulah ... As the time of the keitz grows nearer, the doubts will become smaller, and at the keitz, all doubts will be removed ... As the time grows closer, the uncertainty recedes in the wake of the increasingly “abounding wisdom” (Introduction to Daniel). The Maggid of Dubno used a similar analogy as well. The Zohar even states that it is not G-d’s will to reveal the arrival date of the Moshiach, but when the date draws near, even children will be able to make the calculation "

--- End quote ---

Even so, there are still disclaimers involved aside from just the question of the permissibility of making a calculation or not.

But it is quite telling, IMO, that the RambaN, who lived in the years 1194-1270 said we were then in the "eve of the redemption" at that time/generation!   The time that has elapsed since his day until now is even more time than that which passed between the sealing of the Talmud (wherein hazal caution against this) until the Ramban's time!   It just goes to show we have no idea what G-d's plan is, and everyone always thinks redemption is right around the corner in their own time, and for this reason I think it is a mistake to predict dates.    It would also go to show that, while certainly rishonim at times disagree with chazal on certain matters of interpretation, in this case it would indicate that chazal were more correct in this particular matter perhaps than anyone realized.

I hope I was not overly antagonistic toward Rabbi Katz.

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