Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Rashi on Daniel 7:25: Moshiach in 2011?!
edu:
Dear Rabbi Katz a.k.a. British Bulldog
I didn't hear your entire lecture. I just heard excerpts.
But first a technical comment.
Are you aware, that in what the goyim call the middle ages, we had a minor change in our calendar.
That originally we or at least many counted year 1, from the creation of Adam on Rosh Hashana, but in the middle ages we started to count year 1 from the day of the creation of light on day 1 and the creation of Adam was already in year 2.
I believe you can find a background explanation in Artscroll to Ezra quoting an earlier source. You can also read a bit about it in
לוח ששת אלפים שנה, עמוד 649
of
מוסד הרב קוק, ירושלים, הוצאת תשלו
Secondly, I am uncomfortable with your heavy reliance on the Zohar. 1] given the heavy reliance on the zohar of false messianic groups such as Shabtei Zvi 2] The Zohar, was not released to the public and probably didn't exist, until the time of the Ramban or a little after and therefore should not be a reliable source to use, since the time of the end should have been accessable to those that were worthy, even before the advent of the Zohar.
1.Sefer Yochasin of MHR"A Zechut in the name of R"Y Dmin Acco the student of Ramban brought firsthand testimony that the book of the Zohar was written by means of one of the secret names of G-d {Shaim Hamiforash}and is not the work of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai. We are dealing with a witness who saw firsthand!
2.Rabbi Yaacov Emdeen in his book Mitpachat Sofrim brings many proofs to contradict the claim of the antiquity of the Zohar beyond all doubt and so too did he write in his comments to Sefer Yochasin, see there.
british bulldog:
i have no interest in defending the zohar, and i am sorry for your discomfort in this matter...
however, i am of the school of thought that the zohar is purely authentic, as is rov bnei torah...and it is the yesod of kabalah by sefardim, arizal, gaon of vilna, ramchal, etc....i base my torah on them...so if the zohar is invalid...i sink with them...as for the ramban, he be shita keeps sod as sod...as he says in his hakduma to bereishis...he reveals nothing of his sod. ther notion that the zohar is fraud is propoganda by mislead misnagdim in my opinion, and by those that have never bothered to learn it with intention of understanding it, it is documented even as a source of halacha in some instances, as it is even quoted by the mishna brura. the last time i checked, the mishna brura, ie chofetz chaim, and the other meforshim, were talmidei chachamim, and quite reliable, and knowledgeable in terms of authenticity of mesora issues...we have a mesora...and it is a true mesora...such goes for the torah sh baal peh, which people like to say we dont have a mesora for that as well...and since we are on this train of thought, why dont we just question the authenticity of the chumash...i mean did moshe really write it from dictation from Hashem? these questions are juvenile and of katnei amana from a lack of understanding...to be blunt. yet you are entitled to your opinion, to what you have heard, most likely second hand at best. and as for messianic perversion...should i no longer walk into a chabad house for that matter? due to moshiachist messianic perversion? the zohar suffered absolutely no ill effects from messianic movements..and it flourishes today, and can be found in countless batei midrashim in the world, which is not true for shabtai tzvi divrei torah. i no longer wish to discuss this topic, as it is pointless and fruitless to do so.
as for the calendar issues...many questions have come up on this topic, and to me they shall remain just that questions. we have a mesora and i trust the mesora. klal yisrael is not lost nor have we ever been lost nor will we ever be lost. our mesora is authentic and authoritative. the advent of the skeptic and rationalist does not own the right of passage to skew matters of emunah peshuta, that make up the basic fabric of yiddishkite...ie, the zohar issue. i narrow mind is not always a bad thing, it is a discipline in the science of thought, and thought development, to have a mutual understanding on a given point...and as i have stated, i am with classic daas torah on these matters, which make up the rov of yeshivish torah study. if these points of interest bother you, or contend with you...i advise you to disregard my chiddushim and divrei torah...i am narrow minded, and it will only bother you...much like geocentrisism bothers people of the modern world. if you would like to discuss matters on a mutual understanding level, as agreed upon facts, and i mean facts, i would to do so. but controversial skepticism and debate is not my forte nor my interest. my interest and motivation is to understand yeshivish torah, in the classic sense, and a very particular penimius hashkafa, derived from the gra, arizal, ramchal...which point to the zohar...as they all have a common denominator in their torahs that i prescribe to.
in closing there is debate, and answering challenges of debate...and there is pursuit of knowledge through challenges in understanding...somehow i dont view your post as the latter, rather the former...and i have no interest in convincing you otherwise from what you have heard. but if you would like, i can offer you insight why i conclude and think the way i do, as a sharing of mindset and perspective. maybe then we can converse on common ground and interest.
please excuse me if i was off topic in interpreting your response. in my opinion, it didnt seem relevent in understanding my shiur. or it could be i just didnt understand your questions based on the nusach that i perceived through cyberspace. are you interested in the knowledge of the claim of the validity and usage of the zohar? would you like to believe that it is possible to be authentic? would you like to believe that the year is 5771, but just dont see how it could be? in that context, the situation has changed, and i would be glad to share with you.
wonga66:
Yeranen Yaakov's opinion of Katz's 5771 prediction:
http://yeranenyaakov.blogspot.com/2010/12/new-5771-geula-predictions.html
New 5771 Geula Predictions
Hat tip to Shirat Devorah, who referred me to this shiur. Rabbi David Katz has a shiur on TorahAnytime (listen here) where he takes the Zohar, Rashi, and the Ramban - and uses their wording to show how they all predict a 5771 Geula. I hope I understood the shiur correctly - if anyone understood it differently than I present it here, please let me know. Note that much of what he says is not the literal meaning of their words, but he claims that this could be an intended meaning of their words, al derech drush.
Before he does that, he notes 2 Gematrias:
1) Daniel 12:12 אשרי המחכה ויגיע - the word המחכה ("he that waits") can be reconstructed as 5770 in the following way:
•ה - stands for 5000
•כה - the 25th letter of the alef bet is ן with a gematria of 700
•מח - in א"ת ב"ש is יס, which = 70
2) The word הכרמל (the Carmel) can also have the gematria of 5770 as follows:
•ה - stands for 5000
•כ - really is ך, which = 500
•רמל - which = 270
He further notes that being off by a year is OK in year calculations, so any calculations for 5770 can also mean 5771.
Back to his dealing with the sources. He says that the Hurban of the second Beit Hamikdash occurred in 3830 (unlike many Jewish sources which say it occurred in 3828, but he is taking the secular date of 70 CE).
•First, he takes the Ramban in Sefer HaGeula:
ודע, כי חכמי המשנה מעידים בביאור, כי רומה תפסה מלכות על [אנשי] בית שני, בנצחם את היונים, מזמן
מאתים ושש שנה קודם החרבן, וכשתוסיף המספר הזה על
אלף של״ה, שהוא קץ גאלתנו השלמה, נמצא שעמדנו תחת
יד רומה ושכניה, אשר מכרה אותנו להם, אלף תק״מ שנה
כי שנת אלף של״ה בה תהיה גאלתנו שלמה. אשרי המחכה
ויגיע אליה.
So you add 3830 + 1335 (years in Daniel 12:12) + 206 (years Rome ruled before the Hurban) = 5371
Then, he takes the Ramban in the end of Sefer HaGeula:
ואולי הרמז אשר יעדנו לו בתחלת
דברינו מפרשת
כי תוליד בנים, הוא מפסוק: בצר לך
ומצאוך כל הדברים האלה באחרית הימים ושבת עד ה׳
,אלהיך וגו׳
כי אם תספור לך ומצאוך כל הדברים האלה
,באחרית הימים יעלה בידך לחשבון הגימטריא, אלף רצ״א
כמספר, אשר מן החרבן השני הנרמז בפרשה
עד ביאת
הגואל הראשון משיח בן אפרים
where he takes the word כמספר which itself has the gematria of 400. So, 5371 + 400 = 5771.
•Next, he discusses the Vilna Gaon, who many wrongly predicted a 5750 Geula from his words. Rabbi Katz says that the Vilna Gaon wrote it in 5520 - not in 5500 - so when the Vilna Gaon divided the last 500 years of history in half, he claims it should be pushed off by 20 years, bringing us to 5770.
•Next, the Zohar in Parshat Pinhas 249b:
ואי תימא דלע׳ תחיל ולב׳ שנין אולידת, בתר אלף ומאתן
בחושבן רע״ב
Partially based on the Sulam, Rabbi Katz explains that 3830 + 1200 = 5030. Add another 200 as the Sulam says = 5230. Add another 200 (I don't know where Rabbi Katz gets this from) = 5430. Add 70 = 5500. Add the 272 = 5772, but since we're in the 272nd year, we can say this equates to 5771.
•Next, he takes the Zohar Vayera 119a and Zohar Pinhas 252a and the Haza"l that 2 years were subtracted to ונושנתם, which means that 2 years will be subtracted from the final Geula too. He then does a calculation based on the word שש equaling 600 to come to 5771. (Too technical to get into the calculation.)
•Next, he takes the Rashi on Daniel 7:25, where he says:
עד עידן ועידנין ופלג עידן - קץ סתום הוא זה כאשר נאמר לדנייאל סתום הדברים וחתום ודרשוהו הראשונים איש לפי דעתו וכלו הקצים ויש לנו לפותרו עוד כאשר ראיתי כתוב בשם רב סעדיה הם אלף וג' מאות ול"ה שנים האמור בסוף הספר אשרי המחכה וגו' ופי' המועד עד עת שני עתים וחצי עת ואמר שהעתים הם ד' מאות ופ' שמיום צאתם ממצרים עד שנבנה הבית, וד' מאות ועשר ימי מקדש ראשון הרי תת"ץ ועוד חצי העת הזה תמ"ה הרי אל"ף של"ה את אלה חשוב מעת הוסר התמיד עד שוב זבח התמיד אל מקומו והוא הוסר שש שנים לפני החורבן ויש קצת ראיה בספר זה, ועוד יש מביאין ראיה לחשבון זה הסתר אסתיר פני הסתר אסתיר בגי' אלף ושל"ה
Rabbi Katz says that לפני החורבן means at the Hurban, you are looking ahead of you. He also says that בספר should be read Bisfar (i.e. in the number). He further says that the underlined word שש equals 600 in gematria + ויש קצת means take the literal word שש which is smaller to mean 6. So, 3830 + 1335 + 606 = 5771.
------------
Now, all this is a stretch as I said - it is definitely not the literal meaning of these sefarim. Rabbi Katz will likely say that the words were purposely coded to not allow their meaning to be revealed until it is close to the Geula. Whatever it is, it is a nice Drush on their holy words. Whether it is Emet or not, time will tell.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
I have not listened to the shiur.
I have no interest in listening to the shiur (no offense).
But I would like to ask the Rabbi this very important question:
What is the point of all this? Why bother with this kind of speculation? Does it help people? Does it help G-d? Does it please G-d?
And what will happen if the year 5771 comes and passes without a complete redemption? What will you say then? I am very interested to know what you will say then, hypothetically speaking. And in that hypothetical scenario, after you say it (whatever you plan to say) how did all of this help anyone?
british bulldog:
I have no interest in listening to the shiur (no offense). = listening would be an obvious choice based on trhe fact we are discussing it, and would answer obvious questions due to obvious missing information.
What is the point of all this? to show depth to rishonim, chazal, and that they can be shown is agreement, in a scenario, that we havent even finished yet, showing maybe , maybe they knew more than we give them credit for..and there ability to give over sodot amongst the divrei pushut...maybe they actually had ruach ha kodesh like we are told to believe....and maybe we can actually see their gadlus....through learning b'iyun, even the words of rashi, ramban.
Why bother with this kind of speculation? i dont, they did...we are in that tekufa, its interesting how it all comes together..so many pieces of the puzzle, and now chazal could be right on cue...God Willing.
Does it help people? depends on who you are...if you want to love the rishonim, the mesora, the torah, Gods wisdom and sages...then yes...and if they were wrong, to me 5771 sounds better than 1405 and certainly fits what we know to be true much better. its divrei torah, not a crystal ball of buy instant faith. its the same help to people that rashi speaks of the sugia in shas, when you didnt realize that he even was...i thought rashi was simple they say, then you realize and learn he was the greatest rishon with ruach hakodesh...that helps people to see divinity, yes.
Does it help G-d? no, but but if God was with his words, it pleases God to find it and share it, so that we can find God in all words of inspired torah, kol shacen in psukim, which we know are latent...then to find it is kiddush Hashem.
Does it please G-d? if you are leshma, with no agenda, and just want to show emes...then yes. bonus points if it is emes...which some things are eaiser to prove as emes than others. and if its not emes, as most pshatim take work and chozara even for daniel..then you will come to the emes...then for sure God is happy.
And what will happen if the year 5771 comes and passes without a complete redemption? listen to the shiur and wait for 5772, no difference..years are inclusive and non inclusive, with 2 year leeway.
What will you say then? well, at least we still have 5772.
how did all of this help anyone? if i was accurate, then its obvious, otherwise...i hope then i showed you how to darshen, realize torahs depth...and maybe you can start to learn a little deeper, and bring more light to the world. emes lemito is not easy to come by...does anyone ever really know pshat in something? torah is endless and infinite...a sugia in bava metzia is endless, ive been working on pshat of the first mishna there for 4 years...every day i claim to have it, and i find the support in the sources and shas etc....i to this day, have no clue what that mishna is about...in tachlis...its infinite...but i can show you tons of torah from my journeys through it...this is much the same, only its lamysa, and theoretical about 2 guys holding a talis saying its mine, no its mine. i dont know whos talis it is...not do i know when moshiach comes. but i can give you a great pshat showing depth of torah in both cases...in truth id rather show you my chidushim on bava metzia...but i have yet to find someone willing to tackle 4 years worth of daas torah on one mishna that i havent been able to even finish yet....yet i could write 30 books on what i know from it...here i decided to give a 40 min shiur, much the same derech, only with this people are talking and listening. shall we discus somchos and the mishna and how rashi reveals the secrets of creation in the first rashi in bava metzia? i didnt think so...yet i am able and willing if youd like to. and i can show you how the ramban agrees with rashi there too. if only people cared about shas as much as moshiach, maybe the world would be a better place and moshiach would come...maybe thats why Hashem held the mt. over our heads at sinai to accept the oral torah. maybe its the oral torah's richness that allows us to understand rashis like this and delve into them...and remove the locking mechanism to the torah that people claim isnt there out of ignorance. ill stop here.
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