Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Rashi on Daniel 7:25: Moshiach in 2011?!
edu:
Rabbi Katz aka british bulldog wrote in defense of the Zohar that it is a:
--- Quote ---source of halacha in some instances, as it is even quoted by the mishna brura. the last time i checked, the mishna brura, ie chofetz chaim, and the other meforshim, were talmidei chachamim, and quite reliable, and knowledgeable in terms of authenticity of mesora issues
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The Mishna Brura ruled, siman 25 comment 42: "the Knesset Hagdola wrote as a principle of the Poskim that whenever the Kabbalists and the Zohar argue against the Gemara and the Poskim go after the Gemara and the Poskim", {end of quote}.
It's true that when the Zohar doesn't clearly contradict Gemara and Poskim he does take Zohar into account. But that doesn't necessarily elevate it to the status you give it.
It's not all or nothing.
There are other big achronim that don't give the Zohar any halachic weight at all.
On the calendar issue. I brought you clear sources that we don't have a mesora of using the day of the creation of light as year 1 of the calendar. Check the sources!
One final question for you Rabbi Katz. Do you support the ruling of the rebbe of Chabad not to sleep in a succa on succot based on his understanding of Kabbalistic sources?
british bulldog:
i give the zohar the status as valid text, just like the rabbanim you quoted in the mishna brura...if it is a messianic cult text of shabtai tzvi, would there be a have mina of even arguing with the gemara? thats like saying berg disagrees with chazal.
achronim bigger than the gra and chofetz chaim etc pussel the zohar? and we werent speaking halachic, that was just a bonus, we said valid...ie to learn it and take it seriously and not as fiction.
the calendar issue is a non issue...did you buy a calendar this year? what did it say on it? mine said 5771...if you disagree with that, would you buy a chumash that says, "the 5 books of moses, manuscript writen by rabbi lisa helm. i wouldnt, but thats what you are doing..walking around with a calendar, but saying..nah i dont believe it though, its really 5865...i just bought it because its on sale, and perpetuating shekker doesnt bother me...thats you. there are no sources that say the year is not 5771 and are valid...name one. God gave dates to daniel knowing that they were useless, and going to be extinct and a non issue..and rashi and others fell for it? rashi is that fallable? there is no good reason to change history and chazal over some skeptic rationalists fears and doubts...what else should i start to question?
rabbi ginzburg says to not sleep in the sukkah because of his understanding of kabbalistic sources...is that what you mean? btw its a devar pushut the sukkah inyan, as it is muter to not sleep in the sukkah already lechatchila..so a kabbalistic enhancement it is irrelevent and a chassidic nuance.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: british bulldog on December 15, 2010, 04:16:51 PM ---I have no interest in listening to the shiur (no offense). = listening would be an obvious choice based on trhe fact we are discussing it, and would answer obvious questions due to obvious missing information.
What is the point of all this? to show depth to rishonim, chazal, and that they can be shown is agreement, in a scenario, that we havent even finished yet, showing maybe , maybe they knew more than we give them credit for..and there ability to give over sodot amongst the divrei pushut...maybe they actually had ruach ha kodesh like we are told to believe....and maybe we can actually see their gadlus....through learning b'iyun, even the words of rashi, ramban.
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I don't understand what the heck you are saying. All of that can be seen just by learning some Talmud. The greatness of Chazal is reflected in their deep understanding of the pesukim (verses) and their complex discussions. This can also be appreciated greatly in divrei aggada (words of homily).
Why would showing a prediction of the redemption and the coming of moshiach in the year _____ reflect any of that? You are actually desecrating chazal. Because you are making their greatness contingent on some event coming true, which hasn't happened yet.
And then if it doesn't happen in 5771 (or 5772 or 3), chazal don't have gadluth (greatness) and can't teach sodoth -deep secrets - (Chas ve Shalom, God forbid)? Please don't tell me you believe that.
--- Quote ---Why bother with this kind of speculation? i dont, they did...
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With all due respect, this is ridiculous. They did not say explicitly what you are saying. You are reading something into their words, making a calculation, and making discussion about it. If it wasn't for you and your creative explanation, no one would know the thing you said - and that's precisely why you made it into a shiur. You cannot abdicate responsibility for highlighting this particular subject and focusing on it. Because you did.
--- Quote --- Does it help people? depends on who you are...if you want to love the rishonim, the mesora, the torah, Gods wisdom and sages...then yes
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What?
I can't love the rishonim unless they predict the redemption for the very year I am currently living in? That's a very empty and meaningless kind of "love" and very selfish. People are going to 'love' chazal for making them feel good and nothing else?
--- Quote ---...and if they were wrong, to me 5771 sounds better than 1405 and certainly fits what we know to be true much better.
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That makes no sense. Predicting 1405 is no problem because no one can know when the redemption will happen. That is why CHAZAL IN THE TALMUD WARNED AGAINST MAKING SUCH PREDICTIONS BECAUSE NO ONE CAN KNOW FOR SURE. The Rambam indeed cites this warning of chazal. So if someone thought 1405 and was incorrect, there's nothing wrong with that. If a rishon predicted the redemption for 1405, that does not take away ONE BIT from his greatness unless one has a very childish view of that rishon. They can be wrong, especially about a matter like this that no one can predict!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: british bulldog on December 15, 2010, 04:16:51 PM --- its the same help to people that rashi speaks of the sugia in shas, when you didnt realize that he even was...i thought rashi was simple they say, then you realize and learn he was the greatest rishon with ruach hakodesh...that helps people to see divinity, yes.
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It can only even APPROACH this kind of help if your prediction comes true. But there is no guarantee.
--- Quote ---Does it help G-d? no, but but if G-d was with his words, it pleases G-d to find it and share it, so that we can find G-d in all words of inspired torah, kol shacen in psukim, which we know are latent...then to find it is kiddush Hashem.
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"inspired Torah?" Rashi did not believe himself to be a prophet so I don't know where you're getting this from.
--- Quote ---And what will happen if the year 5771 comes and passes without a complete redemption? listen to the shiur and wait for 5772, no difference..years are inclusive and non inclusive, with 2 year leeway.
What will you say then? well, at least we still have 5772.
--- End quote ---
Well, it seems maybe I didn't get my point across. So I'll have to ask a more pointed question.
What will happen if the year 5771 (or 5772 and 5773) all come and pass without a complete redemption.
What will you say then?
--- Quote ---how did all of this help anyone? if i was accurate, then its obvious, otherwise...i hope then i showed you how to darshen, realize torahs depth ...and maybe you can start to learn a little deeper, and bring more light to the world.
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But can't that be done without getting people's hopes up for something that might shatter their emunah if it doesn't come true?!
--- Quote --- emes lemito is not easy to come by...does anyone ever really know pshat in something? torah is endless and infinite...a sugia in bava metzia is endless, ive been working on pshat of the first mishna there for 4 years...every day i claim to have it, and i find the support in the sources and shas etc....i to this day, have no clue what that mishna is about
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I don't believe that claim, you do not have "no idea" if you've been learning it 4 years - Don't be so modest, rabbi.
--- Quote ---...in tachlis...its infinite...but i can show you tons of torah from my journeys through it...this is much the same, only its lamysa, and theoretical about 2 guys holding a talis saying its mine, no its mine. i dont know whos talis it is...not do i know when moshiach comes. but i can give you a great pshat showing depth of torah in both cases...in truth id rather show you my chidushim on bava metzia...
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I'd prefer that you do. It just so happens I have learned that mishna and its associated Talmudic discussion. But why shouldn't every Jew benefit from the traditional Jewish learning? I think you should share that rather than predict the date of redemption, personally.
--- Quote ---but i have yet to find someone willing to tackle 4 years worth of daas torah on one mishna that i havent been able to even finish yet....yet i could write 30 books on what i know from it...here i decided to give a 40 min shiur, much the same derech, only with this people are talking and listening. shall we discus somchos and the mishna and how rashi reveals the secrets of creation in the first rashi in bava metzia? i didnt think so...
--- End quote ---
Why not? I think that beats predicting the date of moshiach any day.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
Well, I'll say one thing, it's great to have a rabbi here in the Torah section!
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