Rashi on Daniel 7:25: Moshiach in 2011?!

[wonga66]

 
R.David Katz in his talk "5771 -The Geulah Rashi Ramban Zohar" http://www.torahanytime.com/Rabbi/David_Katz/
claims from calculations that not only do the Zohar and Ramban indicate 5771-5774 as being likely Geulah years, but also Rashi on Daniel 7:25
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14260&st=&pgnum=71&hilite=, particularly this year 2011, noch!

[muman613]

It would be wonderful if it was that soon. I have also seen Torah codes which also discuss the imminent geulah. It is difficult to put much faith in these calculations though, because many times they are incorrect.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Right, and Rabbi so-and-so predicted in 5750 that geulah was coming in 5751-5752 based on rashi and ramban, and shlomo so-and-so predicted in 5700 that 5710 was the year of redemption based on zohar, and when the US army invades Iraq, then when the British troops arrive on Bosrah, that was supposed to mean something and bring moshiach on a donkey, then this event, then that event, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc    And they don't come true, and then they make excuses and come up with new scenarios that supposedly predict later dates.


This craziness never ends.    It is forbidden to predict stupid things like this because when the predictions do not come true, the simple Jews with simple faith whom you have DECEIVED, will LOSE ALL THEIR FAITH, not just their faith in your childish lies.

[edu]

Historian A. Morgenstern stated that a large number of Jews had false messianic expectations in Jewish year 5600 {1840}. The sources "proving" that messiah would come in that year were more authoritative than the current sources being used to prove  5771-5774 as the geula years.
When the expected date of 5600 passed without messiah some rabbinical figures  were so disappointed that they converted to Christianity.
Many of the Jews in the land of Israel at the time reacted by abandoning attempts to bring messiah by natural means and instead adopted the  modern Charedi attitudes towards the land of Israel and the redemption.

[wonga66]

As the Malbim (who himself calculated that the Geulah would happen in 1928!) says, the golus has gone of for so long, and the populace become so inured to the concept of Moshiach, that there is no longer a prohibition for a talmid chochom to give a reasoned calculation based on Daniel's numbers 1290 and 1335 etc.

And if you actually bothered to listen carefully to Katz, he talks far from "childish lies".

[muman613]

As the Malbim (who himself predicted the Geulah would happen in 1928!) says, the golus has gone of for so long, and the populace become so inured to the concept of Moshiach, that there is no longer a prohibition for a talmid chochom to give a reasoned calculation based on Daniel's numbers 1290 and 1335 etc.

And if you actually bothered to listen to Katz, he talks far from "childish lies".

Regardless.. I do not put much faith in predictions like this. While it is wonderful to look for signs that it is imminent, I also agree that the faith of many average Jews is destroyed when such predicted dates pass without the appearance of redemption.

[wonga66]

What lends extra weight is the Zohar's explicit reference to the years '72' and '73'.

Plus all the goyim yearning for something big in 2012.

Plus Ahmadinejad/N.Korea likely to use an atom bomb/be atom bombed soon.

Our faith today is so weak, that no one's will be 'destroyed' if nothing happens: we'll just reinterpret and await the next round, as we've always done!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As the Malbim (who himself calculated that the Geulah would happen in 1928!) says, the golus has gone of for so long, and the populace become so inured to the concept of Moshiach, that there is no longer a prohibition for a talmid chochom to give a reasoned calculation based on Daniel's numbers 1290 and 1335 etc.

And if you actually bothered to listen carefully to Katz, he talks far from "childish lies".

The Malbim is rationalizing his own desire to make predictions.

I have a hard time accepting an argument that the populace is "inured to the concept of Moshiach" given the Shabtai Tzvi catastrophe.   Is it possible Malbim was unaware of that history?  Highly doubtful.   So I'm more than puzzled by his statement.   Nonetheless, I stand by what I said.    Furthermore, you and Rabbi Katz are no Malbim.


Btw, where is your quote taken from?   Please cite it.

[wonga66]

In his 1971 book "Proof of the Accuracy of the Bible", Kahanist Rabbi Elihu Shatz gave his calculation on Daniel that the war of Gog & Magog would break out in 1973. One can imagine his excitement when the Yom Kippur war started on 6 October 1973. Rabbis at the time actually said that it was the start of Gog and Magog.

Rabbi Kahane, without any calculations, himself stated in the months before he was slain that Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was the beginning of Gog and Magog.
Ramabam in Iggeres l'Teiman gave his messianic year as 1210.

We don't say that rabbis of this calibre were "wrong" or "erred", jus' like we don't say that Beis Shammai was "wrong".

We say that either the generation wasn't worthy, or that Hashem had other plans.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Rabbi Kahane, without any calculations, himself stated in the months before he was slain that Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was the beginning of Gog and Magog.

Source?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In his 1971 book "Proof of the Accuracy of the Bible", Kahanist Rabbi Elihu Shatz gave his calculation on Daniel that the war of Gog & Magog would break out in 1973. One can imagine his excitement when the Yom Kippur war started on 6 October 1973. Rabbis at the time actually said that it was the start of Gog and Magog.

Rabbi Kahane, without any calculations, himself stated in the months before he was slain that Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was the beginning of Gog and Magog.
Ramabam in Iggeres l'Teiman gave his messianic year as 1210.

We don't say that these rabbis were "wrong" or "erred".

We say that either the generation wasn't worthy, or that Hashem had other plans.

Yeah, 'without calculations' because that would be misguided and chazal warn strongly against doing that.   Yet, here you are, trying to count Rabbi Kahane in your 'camp' as you always do, as if he believed every single thing you believe, you simply recast him into a smarter better version of you.   But I don't believe he would waste his time with calculations like the ones you are promoting.

And as for saying they were wrong, yes we do say their prediction was wrong if it didn't come true!  We don't say it was correct or the right estimation!   Give me a break.   Whether anyone "erred" or not depends on the context, but I do think most people nowadays do err, especially websites that waste their time delving into these matters and trying to attach specific dates and specific significance to specific world events, telling people they received secret messages, they have inside information xyz, etc.   I have seen these sites, and I know this game.    

But it seems to me you fail to understand the Iggereth Teyman.   The Rambam in the same letter asserts that it is forbidden to make predictions like that.   I'll quote from it (I have added bold emphasis):

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/XII
Rambam writes:

"In your letter you have adverted to the computations of the date of the Redemption and R. Saadia's opinion on the subject. First of all, it devolves upon you to know that no human being will ever be able to determine it precisely as Daniel has already intimated, "For the words are shut up and sealed." (Daniel 12:9). Indeed many hypotheses were advanced by scholars, who fancied that they have discovered the date, as was anticipated in Scripture, "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased." (Daniel 12:9). That is, there shall be numerous views concerning it. Furthermore we have a Divine communication through the medium of the prophets that many persons will calculate the time of the advent of the Messiah but will fail to ascertain its true date. We are cautioned against giving way to doubt and distrust because of these miscalculations. The longer the delay, the more fervently shall you hope, as it is written, "And it declareth of the end and doth not lie, though it tarry, wait for it, because it will surely come, it will not delay." (Habakkuk 2:3)."  

After proceeding to cite and delve into the example of differing opinions on the dates of the Egyptian exile and exodus, Rambam then says the following, please pay close attention to the portion where I added bold emphasis:  

"Now, if so much uncertainty prevailed in regard to the date of the emancipation from Egyptian bondage, the term of which was fixed, how much more would it be the case in respect to the date of the final redemption, the prolonged and protracted duration of which appalled and dismayed our inspired seers, so that one of them was moved to exclaim, "Wilt Thou be angry with us forever? Wilt Thou draw out Thine anger to all generations?" (Psalms 85:6). Isaiah, too, alluding to the long drawn out exile, declared: "And they shall be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in the dungeon, and shall be shut up in prison, and after many days shall they be released" (24:22). Inasmuch as Daniel has proclaimed the matter a deep secret, our sages have interdicted the calculation of the time of the future redemption, or the reckoning of the period of the advent of the Messiah, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Messiah fail to appear as forecast. The rabbis invoked G-d to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine prescisely the advent of the Messiah, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Messiah fail to appear as forecast. The rabbis invoked G-d to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent ofthe Messianic era, because they are a stumbling block to the people, and that is why they uttered the imprecation "May the calculators of the final redemption come to grief" (Sanhedrin 97b)."    


"As for R. Saadia's Messianic calculations, there are extenuating circumstances for them though he knew they were disallowed. For the Jews of his time were perplexed and misguided. The Divine religion might well nigh have disappeared had he not encouraged the pusillanimous, and diffused, disseminated and propagated by word of mouth and pen a knowledge of its underlying principles. He believed, in all earnestness, that by means of the Messianic calculations, he would inspire the masses with hope for the truth. Verily all his deeds were for the sake of heaven. Consequently, in view of the probity of his motives, which we have disclosed, one must not decry him for his Messianic computations."

But this is of course quite different from our time.  Nobody is throwing away Judaism because moshiach didn't come yet or doesn't look like he's coming.   There are not masses of people saying 'look how powerful the church is, therefore it must be we have to give up the Shema and become catholic (G-d forbid).'  No one is saying look at Islam controlling many countries that proves Judaism is defeated (G-d forbid).   That argument doesn't even hold water or sound slightly realistic or logical.  If any are saying them, they are very few compared to all the Jews who go after false ideas.  People leave Judaism for a host of other reasons in this day and age, and one of the prominent reasons is being lied to by rabbinic figures and misled by people who should know better, only to figure out that things they were told were fraudulent.   THAT is the bigger danger.   We are not being beaten in the streets by the jackboot of xtian europe or forced to convert by the sword in arab countries.   It is a new situation in which we are strong, not downtrodden.   It is not time to expect a mystical savior to appear and solve all our problems or cry about why haven't we been allowed to return home yet and why haven't we been allowed to get out of the gentile nations, but it is time to focus on practical deeds that will bring about redemption and the messiah, the anointed King, because we have already been allowed and enabled to come home.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Btw, after all of what I quoted above and Rambam's stressing that such predictions cannot be made on the basis of astrology or other means, and even on basis of the prophets it cannot be known for sure, (btw, does R. Katz give such disclaimers?) he goes on to say: 

"The precise date of the messianic advent cannot be known. But I am in possession of an extraordinary tradition which I received from my father, who in turn received it from his father, going back to our early ancestors who were exiled from Jerusalem, and who were mentioned by the prophet in the verse, "And the exiles of Jerusalem that are in Spain" (Obadiah 20). According to this tradition there is a covert indication in the prediction of Balaam to the future restoration of prophecy in Israel...  the verse "After the lapse of time, one will tell Jacob and Israel what G-d hath wrought," (Numbers 23:23), contains a veiled allusion to the date of the restoration of prophecy to Israel. The statement means that after the lapse of an interval equal to the time that passed from the Six Days of Creation to Balaam's day, seers will again tell Israel what G-d hath wrought. Now Balaam uttered his prediction in the thirty-eighth year after the Exodus which corresponds to the year 2485 after the Creation of the World, for the Exodus took place in the beginning of the year 2448. According to the interpretation of this chronology, prophecy would be restored to Israel in the year 4970 after the creation of the world. It is doubtless true that the reappearance of prophecy in Israel is one of the signs betokening the approach of the Messianic era as is intimated in Scripture "And your sons and your daughters shall prophecy ... And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth ... Before the great and terrible day of the Lord come" (Joel 3:1, 3, 4). This is the most genuine tradition concerning the Messianic advent. We were admonished against, and strictly prohibited from blazening it abroad, lest some folk deem it unduly postponed. We have already apprised you concerning it, but G-d knows best what is true. 

So, first, you got it wrong - It wasn't a prediction of the redemption, but it was a prediction of the restoration of prophecy to the Jewish people.   Alas, it did not come true, but Rambam obviously was trying to reassure a community who very much WAS faced with dire prospects and the local apostate Jews who converted to Islam were trying to convert them on the basis of messianic predictions and the degraded state of the Jews as proofs, etc.  And there was also a local false messiah to deal with which this prediction came to contradict.  If you read on on page 16 of the document you will see Rambam calls this person a madman.   The emphasis on the restoration of prophecy as a need for a messiah figure came to directly discredit the local Yemenite false messiah figure that even the author of the letter had fallen for.   
Here's a snippet about that: 

"You mention that a certain man in one of the cities of Yemen pretends that he is the Messiah.17 As I live, I am not surprised at him or at his followers, for I have no doubt that he is mad and a sick person should not be rebuked or reproved for an illness brought on by no fault of his own. Neither am I surprised at his votaries, for they were persuaded by him because of their sorry plight, their ignorance of the importance and high rank of the Messiah, and their mistaken comparison of the Messiah with the son of the Mahdi [the belief in] whose rise they are witnessing. But I am astonished that you, a scholar who has studied carefully the doctrines of the rabbis, are inclined to repose faith in him."

   So this was appropriate that Rambam reassured them in this way and gave them hope that soon the tide will change, and they should keep to their beliefs in the face of Muslim oppression, but he also moderated sharing of his private "tradition" with them with all the necessary disclaimers and explanations that this is not something we can really rely on and cannot expect it to come true exactly on that date - and if this particular interpretation doesn't come true, that's ok too.
Oh, and it also came to contradict the claims of a fraud in Yemen who was posing himself as messiah.    I can really understand where Rambam was coming from. 

 I quite often cannot understand where you are coming from.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Ugh.


It appears you refer to this article, right wonga?

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,18454.0.html   

It has the whole article there: 
On Iraq And The Gulf Crisis
Written by Rabbi Meir Kahane

     
Only problem is, Rabbi Kahane does NOT say it is the war of Gog and Magog as you claimed.    He says

That the startling and incredible events in the Middle East are yet one more giant leap in this, the era of “atchalta d'geula” and "ikvot d'mshicha", the beginning of the redemption and the footsteps of the Messiah, is too painfully clear for all but the most blinded to see. The gathering together of armies and nations to the doorstep of Israel, the terrible threat of awesome weapons, the raging and pandemonium of economies and politics and nations, all testify to the escalation by the Almighty of the final era, the inexorable progression toward the battle of Gog, coming up against the Land of Israel. 

And later on: 

And that is what Kuwait and Iraq and the entire incredible and stupefying spectacle of the nations of the world moving their armies but a stone's throw from the Land of Israel means. The final war of Gog and the nations going up against Israel moves a giant step forward - and we still see and understand nothing.

He says these events are the footsteps TOWARD the great battle of Gog and Magog!  Not that saddam's invasion of kuwait began that war.    You really need to stop distorting sources here to push your agendas.  It is sickening when you do this.
 

[wonga66]

Nevertheless, in the Iggeret, Rambam doesn't hesitate to give his opinion & tradition as to the restoration of nevuah coming in 4976 (2488x2), followed by the Moshiach

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/mekorot/teyman1-2.htm
ועל העניין הזה קבלנו, שזה שאמר בלעם במדבר כ"ג כ"ג "כעת יאמר ליעקב ולישראל מה פעל אל", יש בו סוד, שמן העת ההיא יש לחשב כמנין שיש מששת ימי בראשית ועד אותה העת, ותחזור הנבואה לישראל. ואז יאמרו להם הנביאים "מה פעל אל". ונבואה זו נאמרה בשנת הארבעים לצאתם מארץ מצרים, ותמצא התחלת החשבון עד אותה העת אלפים ותפ"ח שנה, שהסימן "בתפ"ח גאולים". ולפי ההיקש הזה והפירוש הזה תחזור הנבואה לישראל בשנת ארבעת אלפים תתקע"ו ליצירה. ואין ספק שחזרת הנבואה היא הקדמת המשיח, שנאמר יואל ג' א' "ונבאו בניכם ובנותיכם" וגומר. זהו יותר אמתי מכל חשבון שנאמר בשום קץ

And don't blame me. I'm not making any calculations. Take it up with R.Katz. The closer we get to 6000, the odds are rising that someone's gonna get it right!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

But I already quoted that and I showed that you were wrong when you claimed that he predicted the date of the redemption.  He didn't.   Yes, he predicted the restoration of prophecy, but alas that prediction did not come true.    Most or all of them do not.

[wonga66]

Don't come down too hard on Rabbi David Katz!

http://www.israel613.com/GEULA1.htm

CALCULATING THE DATE OF MASHIACH'S COMING

"Making calculations is perfectly acceptable according to many great rabbis of the past, and many did exactly that. For example, according to the Abarbanel, it is only forbidden to make the calculation based upon astrology; however, it is permissible to calculate a date based upon Tanach (Ma’ayeni HaYeshuah 1:2). The Ramban held that the prohibition of the Talmud only applied to earlier generations; now that we are on the eve of redemption, there is no prohibition (Sefer HaGeulah, Ma’amer 4). The Malbim concurs, and provides the following analogy to explain his opinion: The situation is like that of a father and son traveling a long distance. As they start out, the son begins to ask when they will arrive, and of course the father does not answer. However, as they near the town, the son asks the same question, and this time the father readily answers that it is only a short while before they reach their destination. So too it is with us: now that the time is clearly approaching, we cannot help but notice and interpret the signs all around us that tell of the impending geulah ... As the time of the keitz grows nearer, the doubts will become smaller, and at the keitz, all doubts will be removed ... As the time grows closer, the uncertainty recedes in the wake of the increasingly “abounding wisdom” (Introduction to Daniel). The Maggid of Dubno used a similar analogy as well. The Zohar even states that it is not G-d’s will to reveal the arrival date of the Moshiach, but when the date draws near, even children will be able to make the calculation "

[muman613]

It is clear that Moshiach can arrive at any time. Hashems prophet Isaiah tells us that Moshiach will come in his time, or it can be hastened through our behavior. I heard this concept in Rabbi Richmans latest shuir on next weeks Parasha... I found this concept in a page from Sichos In English:


http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/mashiach/05.htm

Date of Moshiachs Coming

The actual date of the Messianic redemption is a guarded mystery unknown to man.[69] It will happen "in its time" (Isaiah 60:22), predetermined from the beginning of creation. This ultimate ketz (time for the 'end') is unconditional: it does not depend on Israel's merit, as it is said, "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it.." (Isaiah 48:11); "I wrought for My Name's sake that it should not be profaned in the eyes of the nations." (Ezekiel 20:9)[70]

Even so, the wording of Isaiah 60:22 seems to display a contradiction by stating "in its time I will hasten it": "in its time" means a set date; "I will hasten it" means that it may occur earlier, before "its time." The contradiction is resolved as follows: "If they are worthy - 'I will hasten it;' if not - 'in its time.' "[71]

The implication is clear: Mashiach can come any day, even before the predetermined date: "This day - if you will listen to His voice!" (Psalms 95:7)[72] Every generation has a special ketz of its own, for, as stated, Mashiach is alive and present in every generation, albeit concealed.[73] He is ready to be revealed at a moment's notice.[74] In the course of history prior to "its time" there are especially auspicious times when it is easier to effect his coming. To take advantage of these, to hasten the redemption, that depends completely on us.[75]

Notes:

  69. (Back to text) See above, note 29.

  70. (Back to text) Zohar Chadash, Tikunim, 95b. Cf. Shemot Rabba 25:12 (cited below, note 81).

  71. (Back to text) Sanhedrin 98a. Yerushalmi, Ta'anit 1:1.

  72. (Back to text) Cf. Zohar Chadash, Tikunim 95b, that every generation has its own special ketz, subject to Israel's merit (cf. Even Shelemah 11:9). Abarbanel notes that the history of the world is divisible into three periods of premature, contingent, and mature: the first stage is premature for the redemption; the second is one of continuous potential for the redemption, subject to Israel's merits; while the third and final stage is the one of the final ketz, the definite date of the actual redemption. Yeshu'ot Meshicho, Part I, p. 11b; and ibid., Iyun Harishon, ch. 1, end of p. 18b. Cf. Sanhedrin 97b, "Before that do not expect him; afterwards you may await him;" and cf. below, note 122. This serves also as one explanation why the redemption did not yet occur, in spite of the infinitely greater piety and saintliness of our ancestors; see Chida, Petach Einayim on Sanhedrin 98a; and below, ch. VIII.

  73. (Back to text) See above, ch. IV-B.

  74. (Back to text) See Sanhedrin 98a "he unties and rebandages each bandage separately, saying, 'Should I be wanted, I must not be delayed;' " Rashi: he does not treat two sores together, thinking 'if I need to go and redeem Israel, I will not delay because of bandaging two sores.'

  75. (Back to text) This may explain why many sages calculated specific dates for the Messianic redemption. They did so in spite of the Talmudic disapproval of such practice lest disillusionment lead to despair: people may say, "since the calculated time has arrived but Mashiach has not come, he will never come." (Sanhedrin 97b; and see Or Hatorah-Na"ch, vol. I, p. 183f.) Yet those who calculated dates for the ketz included the greatest sages and saints throughout the ages, like R. Saadiah Gaon, Rashi, Ba'alei Tossafot, Ramban, Abarbanel, R. Isaac Luria etc. (see Mayanei Hayeshu'ah I:ch. 1-2; and R. Reuven Margolius' glosses on Teshuvot Min Hashamayim, sect. 72, pp. 80-83). Rambam, after citing the Talmudic injunction in his code and elaborating on it in his Igeret Teyman, himself offers in the latter (ch. 3) a date passed on to him by his ancestors! Ramban confronts the problem by stating that the Talmudic prohibition was but for a limited time only and no longer applies to the present era of ikvot Meshicha. (See his Sefer Hage'ulah, ed. Chavel, p. 289f., and see there also pp. 262 and 263). Cf. below, note 122. Various sources explain that all these were in fact true predictions, reflecting especially auspicious times. Mystics state that these dates were in fact actualized, though so far, unfortunately, only in spiritual dimensions not perceived on the manifest level of our reality. (Kuntres Perush Hamilot, ch. 27 (p. 15b). See also Maamarei Admur Hazaken - Haketzarim, p. 212; Bnei Yisas'char, Sivan V:19; Ateret Tzvi on Zohar II:10a. Cf. Bet Elokim, Sha'ar Hatefilah, ch. 17.)

Rabbi Richman on Vayechi : http://koshertube.com/videos/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=5&task=videodirectlink&id=1014

[muman613]

More directly here is a portion of the relevant Talmud Sanhedrin 97b:


http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_97.html#PARTb

R. Hanan b. Tahlifa sent [word] to R. Joseph: I once met a man who possessed a scroll written in Hebrew in Assyrian characters.7  I said to him: 'Whence has this come to thee?' He replied, 'I hired myself as a mercenary in the Roman army, and found it amongst the Roman archives. In it is stated that four thousand, two hundred and thirty8-one years after the creation the world will be orphaned.9  [As to the years following,] some of them will be spent in the war of the great sea monsters,10  and some in the war of Gog and Magog, and the remaining [period] will be the Messianic era, whilst the Holy One, blessed be He, will renew his world only after seven thousand years.' R. Abba the son of Raba said: The statement was after five thousand years.

It has been taught; R. Nathan said: This verse pierces and descends to the very abyss:11  For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though he tarry, wait for him; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.12  Not as our Masters, who interpreted the verse, until a time and times and the dividing of time;13  nor as R. Simlai who expounded, Thou feedest them with the bread of tears; and givest them tears to drink a third time;14  nor as R. Akiba who expounded, Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth:15  but the first dynasty [sc. the Hasmonean] shall last seventy years, the second [the Herodian], fifty two, and the reign of Bar Koziba16  two and a half years.17

What is meant by 'but at the end it shall speak [we-yafeah] and not lie?' — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be18  the bones of those who calculate the end.19  For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you.20  But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it.21  But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him.22

Abaye said: The world must contain not less than thirty-six righteous men in each generation who are vouchsafed [the sight of] the Shechinah's countenance, for it is written, Blessed are all they that wait lo23  [for him]; the numerical value of 'lo' is thirty-six. But that is not so, for did not Raba say: The row [of righteous men immediately] before the Holy One, blessed be He, consists of eighteen thousand,24  for it is written, it shall be eighteen thousand round about?25  — That is no difficulty: the former number [thirty-six] refers to those who see Him through a bright speculum, the latter to those who contemplate him through a dim one.26  But are there as many? Did not Hezekiah say in the name of R. Jeremiah on the authority of R. Simeon b. Yohai: I have seen the sons of heaven,27  and they are but few; if there are a thousand, I and my son are included; if a hundred, I and my son are included; and if only two, they are myself and my son? — There is no difficulty: the former number [thirty-six] refers to those who enter [within the barrier to contemplate the Shechinah] with permission; the latter [uncertain number] to those who may enter without permission.

Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds. But Samuel maintained: it is sufficient for a mourner to keep his [period of] mourning.28  This matter is disputed by Tannaim: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed; if not, they will not be redeemed. R. Joshua said to him, if they do not repent, will they not be redeemed! But the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a king over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, whereby Israel shall engage in repentance, and he will thus bring them back to the right path.29  Another [Baraitha] taught: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed, as it is written, Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings.30  R. Joshua said to him, But is it not written, ye have sold yourselves for naught; and ye shall be redeemed without money?31  Ye have sold yourselves for naught, for idolatry; and ye shall be redeemed without money — without repentance and good deeds. R. Eliezer retorted to R. Joshua, But is it not written, Return unto me, and I will return unto you?32  R. Joshua rejoined — But is it not written, For I am master over you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion?33  R. Eliezer replied, But it is written, in returning and rest shall ye be saved.34  R. Joshua replied, But is it not written, Thus saith the Lord, The Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nations abhorreth, to a servant of rulers,

[muman613]

And even more chilling is the Talmuds description of the generation prior to the coming of Moshiach, known as the 'Birthpangs of Moshiach'. I have learned about this before, but I find it interesting in light of this thread:


http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_97.html
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Raba said: I used to think at first that there is no truth in the world.21  Whereupon one of the Rabbis, by name of R. Tabuth — others say, by name of R. Tabyomi — who, even if he were given all the treasures of the world, would not lie, told me that he once came to a place called Kushta,22  in which no one ever told lies, and where no man ever died before his time. Now, he married one of their women, by whom he had two sons. One day his wife was sitting and washing her hair, when a neighbour came and knocked at the door. Thinking to himself that it would not be etiquette [to tell her that his wife was washing herself], he called out, 'She is not here.' [As a punishment for this] his two sons died. Then people of that town came to him and questioned him, 'What is the cause of this?' So he related to them what had happened. 'We pray thee,' they answered, 'quit this town, and do not incite Death against us.'23

It has been taught: R. Nehorai said: in the generation when Messiah comes, young men will insult the old, and old men will stand before the young [to give them honour]; daughters will rise up against their mothers, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law. The people shall be dog-faced, and a son will not be abashed in his father's presence.

It has been taught, R. Nehemiah said: in the generation of Messiah's coming impudence will increase, esteem be perverted,24  the vine yield its fruit, yet shall wine be dear,25  and the Kingdom will be converted to heresy26  with none to rebuke them. This supports R. Isaac, who said: The son of David will not come until the whole world is converted to the belief of the heretics. Raba said: What verse [proves this]? it is all turned white: he is clean.27

Our Rabbis taught: For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself of his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left:28  the son of David will not come until denunciators are in abundance.29  Another interpretation [of their power is gone]: until scholars are few. Another interpretation: until the [last] perutah has gone from the purse. Yet another interpretation: until the redemption is despaired of, for it is written, there is none shut up or left, as — were it possible [to say so] — Israel had neither Supporter nor Helper. Even as R. Zera, who, whenever he chanced upon scholars engaged thereon [I.e., in calculating the time of the Messiah's coming], would say to them: I beg of you, do not postpone it, for it has been taught: Three come unawares:30  Messiah, a found article and a scorpion.31

R. Kattina said: Six thousand years shall the world exist, and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.32  Abaye said: it will be desolate two [thousand], as it is said, After two days will he revive us: in the third day, he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.33

It has been taught in accordance with R. Kattina: Just as the seventh year is one year of release in seven, so is the world: one thousand years out of seven shall be fallow, as it is written, And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day,' and it is further said, A Psalm and song for the Sabbath day,34  meaning the day that is altogether Sabbath — 35 and it is also said, For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past.36

The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation;37  two thousand years the Torah flourished;38  and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era,39
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[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Don't come down too hard on Rabbi David Katz!

http://www.israel613.com/GEULA1.htm

CALCULATING THE DATE OF MASHIACH'S COMING

"Making calculations is perfectly acceptable according to many great rabbis of the past, and many did exactly that. For example, according to the Abarbanel, it is only forbidden to make the calculation based upon astrology; however, it is permissible to calculate a date based upon Tanach (Ma’ayeni HaYeshuah 1:2). The Ramban held that the prohibition of the Talmud only applied to earlier generations; now that we are on the eve of redemption, there is no prohibition (Sefer HaGeulah, Ma’amer 4). The Malbim concurs, and provides the following analogy to explain his opinion: The situation is like that of a father and son traveling a long distance. As they start out, the son begins to ask when they will arrive, and of course the father does not answer. However, as they near the town, the son asks the same question, and this time the father readily answers that it is only a short while before they reach their destination. So too it is with us: now that the time is clearly approaching, we cannot help but notice and interpret the signs all around us that tell of the impending geulah ... As the time of the keitz grows nearer, the doubts will become smaller, and at the keitz, all doubts will be removed ... As the time grows closer, the uncertainty recedes in the wake of the increasingly “abounding wisdom” (Introduction to Daniel). The Maggid of Dubno used a similar analogy as well. The Zohar even states that it is not G-d’s will to reveal the arrival date of the Moshiach, but when the date draws near, even children will be able to make the calculation "

Even so, there are still disclaimers involved aside from just the question of the permissibility of making a calculation or not.

But it is quite telling, IMO, that the RambaN, who lived in the years 1194-1270 said we were then in the "eve of the redemption" at that time/generation!   The time that has elapsed since his day until now is even more time than that which passed between the sealing of the Talmud (wherein hazal caution against this) until the Ramban's time!   It just goes to show we have no idea what G-d's plan is, and everyone always thinks redemption is right around the corner in their own time, and for this reason I think it is a mistake to predict dates.    It would also go to show that, while certainly rishonim at times disagree with chazal on certain matters of interpretation, in this case it would indicate that chazal were more correct in this particular matter perhaps than anyone realized.

I hope I was not overly antagonistic toward Rabbi Katz.

[british bulldog]

eve of redemption means, that at the rambans time, 6pm on the paradigm clock was near, and the revelation of of the geula would not commence until 6 am on the clock, ie. near 1400 = 6 pm...and 5500 =  6 am..corresponding to the 6th day of creation.
if you notice, the alternative time of the ramban (3830 + 1290 + 400 = 5520 ) is the time of the revelation of the beginning of mashiach ben ephraim, ie. the vilna gaons kol hator, as it began essentially in 5520...this time period was forseen by the gra, and the ramban, as yet another interp. of time, times, and a half (4000, 1000, 500 = 5500) this is explained in kol hator, and the ramban, sefer geulah. this was a great year for many, as it was 1739, industrial revolution, the gra, baal shem tov, ramchal, sefardi masters, etc...also predicted in the zohar [wellsprings will be opened up from 5500 until 5600, which many believe were] thus the ramban saw, that as 6 pm, closed with him, he knew it would reawaken at 6 am ( the gra says 41 yrs 8 months is an hour) this was also said in the shiur...ie 5500, vs 5520. when one reads sefer geulah, and does the calculation reaching 5520, it is like the ramban describes the pratim of the sefer kol hator, in terms of moshiach ben ephraim...which i believe there was a kabbalistic mesorah, that 6 am would be significant in the geulah, and the gra realized that potential in himself, leading the way to what would be the light of moshiach ben ephraim, kol hator. in terms of in its time, i will hasten it. (5500- 6000, 250 [from 500] = 5750) then when you take the additional 20 years into mind, as the rambans cheshbon dictates, and corresponds to the year of kol hator, 5520, brings you to 5770. the point of the shiur, was to show continuity amongst the sources, and their predictions were and are still alive, and in unison. and when we add in, ad v ad v klal, and ad vlo ad vklal, to the cheshbon, it gives you a differential of almost 2 full years. thus the calculations, are shayach until 5774. based on what i see in the world, there is no reason to doubt this cheshbon...all the pieces are present, and even more so now than ever.. do i have any vested interest in "this year"...not really...it just seems logical, and the rishonim all point to this year...as i did the cheshbon on its simple calculation level, just to have it make sense..which was no less an accomplishment...to finally have a working "pshat" of their words. i encourage you, to listen to the shiur...and please offer your own interpretation of rashis words, the rambans words if you would like....or drop it if that makes you happy. my cavanah is to understand these rishonim...and i achieved that...if what i found is wrong..so be it...whether my understanding, or it be their cheshbonos...either way, i will patiently wait untill Hashem decides to bring the geulah, as we all will, whether we like it or not. it just gives me extra incentive, to anticipate (tzipia le yeshua, as it says in shabbos...to anticipate the geulah) with a little more cavanah and enthusiasm...especially thinking that many minds over the years were looking forward to the years we are in, as i see it, and at the very least, we will be one year closer to moshiach, when 5771 comes and goes, assuming he does not come. all the way until 5774. if in 5774, there is no moshiach, and the world still exists...the it is safe to say that these calculations are vadai wrong, and  a new approach should be taken, and the sources should be reviewed, as they were not intended for what they were used, on an apparent level. of course in 5870, these ideas will become rearroused, and rightly so..as this is the mashmaut of these sources. this story is long, and opinions are many...and in closing, enjoy 5771, for better or worse, but at least with a little bit of anticipation and enthusiasm, as it is chaval to say the movie is not worth watching, when it has only just started...it may get best picture...yet it may not, and we all know the ramifications either way...in my opinion, 5771-5774 will be exciting years....its an opinion...it was learned out, leshma...and so far it worked, and is working...no more no less.

[muman613]

Shalom BB,

As I initially stated, it is very interesting to attempt to calculate these times. And I surely await Moshiach every day, and I look for signs that he is here. But I find it difficult to believe every calculation which a student or teacher of Torah brings. The best strategy is to try to bring Moshiach by hastening his coming, through deeds of kindness, observance of the mitzvot such as Tefillin, TzitTzits, Tzedakah and Tefilla, and of course keeping the Shabbat. By teaching others the Torah which we learn we also hasten the coming of Moshiach.

I find what you wrote very interesting, although difficult to read due to lack of formatting. It would be good to use paragraphs and capitalization in such a discussion.

[muman613]

http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/metho68/02metho.htm

Shiur #02: Geula and Tefila

By Rav Moshe Taragin

 

 

            The gemara in Berakhot (4b) asserts the value of juxtaposing tefilla - the recitation of the shemone esrei - with a recollection of redemption.  The ideal of "someich geula le-tefilla," of twining a mention of past geula with actual tefilla - if executed properly, merits entry into the next world (muvtach lo she-hu ben olam ha-ba).  The exact benefit and purpose of this juxtaposition remains unclear.

 

            In his commentary to the gemara in Berakhot (4b), Rashi cites a Yerushalmi in Berakhot as the source of this rule.  The Yerushalmi identifies a "superior" form of prayer and contrasts it with an "inferior" one.  A prayer offered without introduction is an inferior prayer, as it is not predicated on any prior relationship and is therefore less dependable or even valuable.  However, when we first build a relationship with Hashem by mentioning geula and only subsequently lodge our requests, the tefilla is "superior." According to Rashi, geula and tefilla are juxtaposed in order to HEIGHTEN the quality of prayer.  Employing geula as a preamble to prayer enhances prayer's caliber.

 

            Rashi reinforces this notion in a comment on the gemara in Berakhot 31, which urges entering tefilla in a state of "happiness."  Though the literal reading of the gemara addresses the mentality that should frame prayer, Rashi attempts to concretize the gemara's point by suggesting certain experiences which can enable a proper state of mind prior to tefilla.  He cites two examples of texts whose recital would ease anxiety and facilitate a superior tefilla.  One example is describing geula, while a second example is the recitation of ashrei.  The mentioning of geula, then, is functionally parallel to ashrei, as they both serve as a preface to tefilla.  There is a subtle difference between the function of geula as a relationship builder, as Rashi notes on Berakhot 4b, and the role that Rashi attributes to it as a comforting pretext to tefilla (31a).  Either way, geula serves as a preface, enabling and enhancing the tefilla.

 

            By contrast, the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah articulate the fusion of geula and tefilla quite differently.  The sections of geula texts recall our liberation from Mitzrayim and the ensuing submission to the Divine will; immediate prayer – itself a form of worship – REINFORCES that submission to Hashem's will.  Alternatively, an immediate tefilla corroborates the FAITH we place in Hashem as the Answerer of our prayers.  This is a fitting conclusion to the discussion of geula and our enduring faith in His interest in and ability to redeem us.  Unlike Rashi, who viewed geula as a preface to tefilla, the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah viewed tefilla as an EPILOGUE to geula.  Tefilla recited immediately after describing geula reinforces some of the fundamental motifs of the redemptive experience.  That we pray every morning is a mitzva in and of itself (either Biblical or Rabbinic).  The scheduling of tefilla immediately subsequent to geula, however, incidentally highlights some of the basic motifs of geula.  In this respect, prayer is drafted in the "service" of geula.

             There is an interesting dispute, the premise of which may strengthen the position of the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah.  The gemara in Berakhot (4b) records a machloket between Rabbi Yochanan, who requires this twinning even at Ma'ariv, and Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, who waives this requirement for Ma'ariv.  Explaining the machloket, the gemara first suggests that the argument revolves around the history of the event commemorated in "geula": did the redemption from Egypt begin at night or only occur at daybreak?  Rabbi Yochanan believes that the geula began at night, and therefore he requires the juxtaposition at night during Ma'ariv, while Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi disagrees. Alternatively, the debate may not be historical but nominal; each agrees that the geula began at night and came in full force during the day.  They argue as to whether the preliminary stages at night were sufficient to deem this miracle as having begun at night.

 

Either way, one must wonder about the RELEVANCE of this issue if geula is merely a convenient "lead-in" for prayer.  If Rashi is correct and geula functions as an introduction to our tefilla, we should insert geula as a preface independent of the timing of the actual redemption. If we assume, on the other hand, that the pairing of geula and tefilla is for the sake of our discussion of geula, perhaps we can argue that this association is only mandated during the primary moment of reliving geula.  Since, at least according to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi, we relive geula exclusively during the day, the geula-tefilla twinning is unnecessary at night.

 

            Tosafot in Berakhot (4b) mention an interesting position of Rav Amram Ga'on that may indicate – as Rashi suggested – that this twinning actually serves tefilla's interest.  Rav Amram Ga'on comments on our custom of reciting kaddish between the evening discussion of geula and shemoneh esrei, severing the juxtaposition. Since Ma'ariv is voluntary (reshut), we are excused from connecting geula and tefilla, and we intentionally insert kaddish to break the continuity and demonstrate the lesser status of Ma'ariv.  Rabbi Yochanan's aforementioned debate with Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi regarding the need for this association at night revolved around the timing of the original geula and had little to do with the halakhic status of tefillat Ma'ariv.  Rav Amram Gaon introduces a new variable to help determine the requirement of the twinning between geula and tefilla at night: only OBLIGATORY tefillot require this twinning, while voluntary ones do not.

 

            According to the Talmidei Rabbenu Yonah, the juxtaposition of geula and tefilla has little to do with actual tefilla.  Whenever we study the lessons of geula and target certain ideological truths, we underscore those truths with a consequent tefilla.  The fact that the prayer being recited is voluntary should not exonerate us form reinforcing the lessons of geula through a tefilla.  Rav Amram Ga'on's position seems to be predicated upon the view of Rashi - geula aids us in preparing for tefilla, but this preamble was only instituted during a tefilla of obligation and not a voluntary one.

 

            The ensuing shiur will iy'H address a related issue: may geula and tefilla be disassociated to serve alternate purposes? 

[british bulldog]

should one not attempt to understand rashi, ramban, gra, and zohar? should we write them off because we dont so to speak understand them? should we then not be surprised to understand them and realize that they all agree? should we equally not be enthusiastic to see that we are in the year that they proclaim? no one invented this concept of calculation...it was given to daniel, and since then people have tried to understand it. who said the sugia is dead? and as i see it, we are in the sugia now...and if the calculations are wrong, then the sugia still continues...mind you, all i have done was plug in the numbers brought down by the rishonim...did you listen to the shiur to see that is what it is about? or is this discussion theoretical? because if you have listened to it, i would love to  hear how you differ with my pshat of the pratim given in the respective sources. this has nothing to do with bringing moshiach. this has to do with tzipia leyeshua, as i understand it. and i see nothing wrong with doing that mitzva, leshma, and b'simcha...and making it lamysa...which i assure i will do until moshiach comes or 120, which ever comes first..and as you said...every generation has signs..therefore what is the harm with noting an apparent sign? certainly signs are good when based on truth, ie. rishonim, chazal, psukim, etc.  as for bringing moshiach, well that seems to be the task at hand does it not? how about fullfilling the torah, that would be a start. of course we all disagree about what the torah wants from us. in that case, to each his own. and hatzlacha raba. may one of us figure it out soon, spread the word, and bring moshiach...and if you think the status quo is working, and has been working, but that it just takes time, no chiddushim necessary, then hatzlacha raba to you too. we all have an emunah, and the torah summarized is tzaddik bemunaso yichyeh...my emunah tells me to understand rishonim. i did that. my emunah is to share that knowledge b simcha, in the knowledge that an age old machlokes and source of doubt, is in fact not a machlokes and can be viewed as chizuk and strengthening our emunah, and in our sages...at the very least, rashi saying 5771/2010, as opposed to 1405, as well as other rishonim mentioned, makes me smile a little brighter...and maybe they knew a little more than we give them credit for. torah and her sages are meant to be understood, and not to ridicule those who attempt and for the time being have succeeded in understanding...if you would like to pussul this shiur in 5775, you wont be able to, for i will already have done so, happily. yet that means moshiach didnt come, sadily...then as i said...reconfigure, put the pieces together, in an even stronger fashion...and i am sure Hashem will provide the kelim, to make the klals emunah even stronger than before...so we can greet moshiach, and or have the capacity to get to 6000. and at erev 6000, no moshiach what will the am say? they will say, lets try to configure and understand what is going on..as calculations are just part of the briah, as we all subscribe to the 6000 years  notion, as moshe coming in the midst of the 6th hour notion at sinai, etc. calcualtion is part of torah, it was given to daniel for a reason, and it is torah. mind you, daniel himself, the calculator...calculated, errored, and reconfigured, ie. 70 years of galus bavel. in closing, the goal is to understand, torah in general...when we can begin to go down that alley, maybe then we can understand what Hashem wants from us, whatever it is that hasnt been done, and that we are not doing. there are no answers until the trial is over. but to not participate out of complexity and difficulty, i do not believe is the answer. nor is it appropriate to proclaim "the answer" when it is mere speculation. but there is the sharing of emunah, and the torah we percieve and on some level believe we understand. my emunah, and understanding is that we are in the process of geulah, and that it is very near, most likely by 5774, as predicted/believed/forseen/or even guessed by sages, or misinterpreted "students" of torah...which if the later is true, then rashi and ramban said the geulah was many many years ago unfullfilled...and to me that is depressing, of katnei emanah, and a lessening of the gadlus of rishonim and their messorah. this has nothing to do with being right. it has to do with what my eyes have seen and are seeing. and my emunah is to believe that we are in it now. and as of date, nothing has led me to believe otherwise. so i will continue down this path...my emunah, between me and God, which i have chosen to share with those interested in listening to a simple torah shiur, about rishonim, and their agreed stance on when they perceived through tradition going back to daniel about when the geulah would come. i hope to those who listened to the shiur, that it gave you simcha, chizuk, and a desire to understand what Hashem wants from us, in that we can bring the geulah, not only "in its own time", but in the fashion of "i will hasten it", producing the Kiddush Hashem, that we are all after: to Understand Hashem, His Torah, and His People....sof mysa, machshava techila...may it be soon.

[wonga66]

Katz's calculation based on a close reading of Rashi appears to be 3830+1335+600+6 = 5771