Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Italian Zionist's question
kahaneloyalist:
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on June 07, 2007, 01:47:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 04, 2007, 02:00:49 AM ---As for the Jesus quotes, I dont think its news that we Jews dont think highly of Jesus, while the Gemara may not be refering to your Jesus, it was a very common name at the time, if it is it shouldnt really come as a great surprise. Chaim follows a lenient opinion in regards to Christianity, the opinion of the Meiri, but other Jews like Lubavitch follow the opinion of the Rambam, that non-Jews should follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, and through that serve Hashem, and it is our duty to bring the Goyim to the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach.
--- End quote ---
Here is what I think of the situation with Jesus.
Jesus, or to be more precise, Yeshua ben Yosef, was:
1) a Jew, first and foremost
2) a patriot
3) someone, who saw the suffering of the Jews under Roman occupation and witnessed the hopelessness of the struggle of Jewish people against the occupants
4) someone, who witnessed, along with other Jews, that Messiah was not coming despite the tragic condition of his people
5) someone, who understood that you could not defeat the strongest army of Romans with violence
6) someone, who witnessed how Jews were losing hope and faith because Messiah’s “delay”
7) someone, who took a risky path of claiming divine nature to save his people
8} someone, who could not save Jews, but refused to give up his claim
For me, Jesus is not a Messiah, but definitely a son of my people, who wanted to free Israel.
He is a lesson for me that Jews should not rely on G-d’s messengers when they can do the job on their own. They should not wait for the Messiah, in order to become righteous. But become righteous now, and that total holiness of the people will be equivalent to the coming of the Messiah.
--- End quote ---
I write this only in response to some misconceptions of a fellow Jew, this is not a attack on those Christians who Chaim considers righteous gentiles
I am afraid you are mistaken what Jesus actually was
1) A Jew who abandoned the Torah
2) A traitor who sold out his people to the Romans
3) Someone who did everything he could to weaken the Jewish people spiritually and physically, and he was wrong about the Jews beating the Romans, Bar Kochba did beat them, and would have kept beating them had he not done Averot
4) Abandoned the most basic tenants of Judaism, which include the belief in the coming of Mashiach
5) Claimed we couldnt beat the Romans and yet Bar Kochba managed to do it
6) Someone who made insane claims of divinity which were mostly laughed at by Jews. His interest in "saving" his people is the equivalent of the Reform's interest in "saving" the Jewish people.
7) Someone who wasnt interested in saving Jews so much as being important
8} His claim led to the death of more Jews than can be counted
And Jesus never had any interest in "freeing" the Jewish people, the only freedom he wanted to give was freedom from the Ole Malchut Shamaim ::)
Zvulun Ben Moshe:
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 07, 2007, 02:48:40 AM ---
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on June 07, 2007, 01:47:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 04, 2007, 02:00:49 AM ---As for the Jesus quotes, I dont think its news that we Jews dont think highly of Jesus, while the Gemara may not be refering to your Jesus, it was a very common name at the time, if it is it shouldnt really come as a great surprise. Chaim follows a lenient opinion in regards to Christianity, the opinion of the Meiri, but other Jews like Lubavitch follow the opinion of the Rambam, that non-Jews should follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, and through that serve Hashem, and it is our duty to bring the Goyim to the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach.
--- End quote ---
Here is what I think of the situation with Jesus.
Jesus, or to be more precise, Yeshua ben Yosef, was:
1) a Jew, first and foremost
2) a patriot
3) someone, who saw the suffering of the Jews under Roman occupation and witnessed the hopelessness of the struggle of Jewish people against the occupants
4) someone, who witnessed, along with other Jews, that Messiah was not coming despite the tragic condition of his people
5) someone, who understood that you could not defeat the strongest army of Romans with violence
6) someone, who witnessed how Jews were losing hope and faith because Messiah’s “delay”
7) someone, who took a risky path of claiming divine nature to save his people
8} someone, who could not save Jews, but refused to give up his claim
For me, Jesus is not a Messiah, but definitely a son of my people, who wanted to free Israel.
He is a lesson for me that Jews should not rely on G-d’s messengers when they can do the job on their own. They should not wait for the Messiah, in order to become righteous. But become righteous now, and that total holiness of the people will be equivalent to the coming of the Messiah.
--- End quote ---
I write this only in response to some misconceptions of a fellow Jew, this is not a attack on those Christians who Chaim considers righteous gentiles
I am afraid you are mistaken what Jesus actually was
1) A Jew who abandoned the Torah
2) A traitor who sold out his people to the Romans
3) Someone who did everything he could to weaken the Jewish people spiritually and physically, and he was wrong about the Jews beating the Romans, Bar Kochba did beat them, and would have kept beating them had he not done Averot
4) Abandoned the most basic tenants of Judaism, which include the belief in the coming of Mashiach
5) Claimed we couldnt beat the Romans and yet Bar Kochba managed to do it
6) Someone who made insane claims of divinity which were mostly laughed at by Jews. His interest in "saving" his people is the equivalent of the Reform's interest in "saving" the Jewish people.
7) Someone who wasnt interested in saving Jews so much as being important
8} His claim led to the death of more Jews than can be counted
And Jesus never had any interest in "freeing" the Jewish people, the only freedom he wanted to give was freedom from the Ole Malchut Shamaim ::)
--- End quote ---
I am not afraid to be mistaken, but I'd like to clarify a few things first:
1) He surely did abandon the Torah. Here you can talk to any Holocaust survivor. He will tell you how “sometimes” it is very hard to continue believing.
2) Weren't it Romans who killed him at the end? Sounds like "the deal" didn't go through.
3) Bar Kochba was a hero, who organized the fieriest resistance to Romans in the history, but unfortunately we were still expelled from Israel.
4) Well, he claimed that he was the one. How about that? ;)
5) Bar Kochba managed to harm Romans, but could not defeat them.
6) By wishing to "save Jews" I meant freeing them as a people from a long and tragic occupation.
7) He was ambitious enough to risk his life.
8} If you are referring to inquisitions and pogroms, then this is a proof that the pagan Europeans remained pagan and never became Christian. If Christianity means "mercy, love, and forgiveness", then the only people who really followed these principles were Jews.
He did not have to give freedom from the Ole Malchut Shamaim. Thousands of Jews at that time already worshipped Roman idols.
kahaneloyalist:
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on June 07, 2007, 08:09:23 AM ---
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 07, 2007, 02:48:40 AM ---
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on June 07, 2007, 01:47:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 04, 2007, 02:00:49 AM ---As for the Jesus quotes, I dont think its news that we Jews dont think highly of Jesus, while the Gemara may not be refering to your Jesus, it was a very common name at the time, if it is it shouldnt really come as a great surprise. Chaim follows a lenient opinion in regards to Christianity, the opinion of the Meiri, but other Jews like Lubavitch follow the opinion of the Rambam, that non-Jews should follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, and through that serve Hashem, and it is our duty to bring the Goyim to the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach.
--- End quote ---
Here is what I think of the situation with Jesus.
Jesus, or to be more precise, Yeshua ben Yosef, was:
1) a Jew, first and foremost
2) a patriot
3) someone, who saw the suffering of the Jews under Roman occupation and witnessed the hopelessness of the struggle of Jewish people against the occupants
4) someone, who witnessed, along with other Jews, that Messiah was not coming despite the tragic condition of his people
5) someone, who understood that you could not defeat the strongest army of Romans with violence
6) someone, who witnessed how Jews were losing hope and faith because Messiah’s “delay”
7) someone, who took a risky path of claiming divine nature to save his people
8} someone, who could not save Jews, but refused to give up his claim
For me, Jesus is not a Messiah, but definitely a son of my people, who wanted to free Israel.
He is a lesson for me that Jews should not rely on G-d’s messengers when they can do the job on their own. They should not wait for the Messiah, in order to become righteous. But become righteous now, and that total holiness of the people will be equivalent to the coming of the Messiah.
--- End quote ---
I write this only in response to some misconceptions of a fellow Jew, this is not a attack on those Christians who Chaim considers righteous gentiles
I am afraid you are mistaken what Jesus actually was
1) A Jew who abandoned the Torah
2) A traitor who sold out his people to the Romans
3) Someone who did everything he could to weaken the Jewish people spiritually and physically, and he was wrong about the Jews beating the Romans, Bar Kochba did beat them, and would have kept beating them had he not done Averot
4) Abandoned the most basic tenants of Judaism, which include the belief in the coming of Mashiach
5) Claimed we couldnt beat the Romans and yet Bar Kochba managed to do it
6) Someone who made insane claims of divinity which were mostly laughed at by Jews. His interest in "saving" his people is the equivalent of the Reform's interest in "saving" the Jewish people.
7) Someone who wasnt interested in saving Jews so much as being important
8} His claim led to the death of more Jews than can be counted
And Jesus never had any interest in "freeing" the Jewish people, the only freedom he wanted to give was freedom from the Ole Malchut Shamaim ::)
--- End quote ---
I am not afraid to be mistaken, but I'd like to clarify a few things first:
1) He surely did abandon the Torah. Here you can talk to any Holocaust survivor. He will tell you how “sometimes” it is very hard to continue believing.
2) Weren't it Romans who killed him at the end? Sounds like "the deal" didn't go through.
3) Bar Kochba was a hero, who organized the fieriest resistance to Romans in the history, but unfortunately we were still expelled from Israel.
4) Well, he claimed that he was the one. How about that? ;)
5) Bar Kochba managed to harm Romans, but could not defeat them.
6) By wishing to "save Jews" I meant freeing them as a people from a long and tragic occupation.
7) He was ambitious enough to risk his life.
8} If you are referring to inquisitions and pogroms, then this is a proof that the pagan Europeans remained pagan and never became Christian. If Christianity means "mercy, love, and forgiveness", then the only people who really followed these principles were Jews.
He did not have to give freedom from the Ole Malchut Shamaim. Thousands of Jews at that time already worshipped Roman idols.
--- End quote ---
1) and they are wrong as well
2) Yes, the Romans did kill him, he got a touch too ambitious for their liking
3) Yes, Bar Kochba was defeated in the end, but he first drove the Romans from Eretz Yisrael, it was only when he did averot by allying with the Goy Samaritans that he, and Benai Yisrael were punished
4) Yes, Yeshu made the claim but distorted the idea of Mashiach away from the Torah version to the absurd beliefs he is know for
5) He did beat them, Eretz Yisrael was independant for three years, and Bar Kochba was unbeatable, it was only when he did Averot that the Romans began to win again, even then the Romans knew it to be a Pyrric victory
6) Except he had no interest in ending Roman occupation
7) In this you are correct he was extremely ambitious
8} Explain how you wish
Yes, some Jews were immersed in the Roman culture but that doesnt in any way lesson the evil inherent in encouraging rebellion from the Torah
Zvulun Ben Moshe:
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 07, 2007, 08:17:51 AM ---
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on June 07, 2007, 08:09:23 AM ---
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 07, 2007, 02:48:40 AM ---
--- Quote from: Zvulun ben Moshe on June 07, 2007, 01:47:48 AM ---
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 04, 2007, 02:00:49 AM ---As for the Jesus quotes, I dont think its news that we Jews dont think highly of Jesus, while the Gemara may not be refering to your Jesus, it was a very common name at the time, if it is it shouldnt really come as a great surprise. Chaim follows a lenient opinion in regards to Christianity, the opinion of the Meiri, but other Jews like Lubavitch follow the opinion of the Rambam, that non-Jews should follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, and through that serve Hashem, and it is our duty to bring the Goyim to the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach.
--- End quote ---
Here is what I think of the situation with Jesus.
Jesus, or to be more precise, Yeshua ben Yosef, was:
1) a Jew, first and foremost
2) a patriot
3) someone, who saw the suffering of the Jews under Roman occupation and witnessed the hopelessness of the struggle of Jewish people against the occupants
4) someone, who witnessed, along with other Jews, that Messiah was not coming despite the tragic condition of his people
5) someone, who understood that you could not defeat the strongest army of Romans with violence
6) someone, who witnessed how Jews were losing hope and faith because Messiah’s “delay”
7) someone, who took a risky path of claiming divine nature to save his people
8} someone, who could not save Jews, but refused to give up his claim
For me, Jesus is not a Messiah, but definitely a son of my people, who wanted to free Israel.
He is a lesson for me that Jews should not rely on G-d’s messengers when they can do the job on their own. They should not wait for the Messiah, in order to become righteous. But become righteous now, and that total holiness of the people will be equivalent to the coming of the Messiah.
--- End quote ---
I write this only in response to some misconceptions of a fellow Jew, this is not a attack on those Christians who Chaim considers righteous gentiles
I am afraid you are mistaken what Jesus actually was
1) A Jew who abandoned the Torah
2) A traitor who sold out his people to the Romans
3) Someone who did everything he could to weaken the Jewish people spiritually and physically, and he was wrong about the Jews beating the Romans, Bar Kochba did beat them, and would have kept beating them had he not done Averot
4) Abandoned the most basic tenants of Judaism, which include the belief in the coming of Mashiach
5) Claimed we couldnt beat the Romans and yet Bar Kochba managed to do it
6) Someone who made insane claims of divinity which were mostly laughed at by Jews. His interest in "saving" his people is the equivalent of the Reform's interest in "saving" the Jewish people.
7) Someone who wasnt interested in saving Jews so much as being important
8} His claim led to the death of more Jews than can be counted
And Jesus never had any interest in "freeing" the Jewish people, the only freedom he wanted to give was freedom from the Ole Malchut Shamaim ::)
--- End quote ---
I am not afraid to be mistaken, but I'd like to clarify a few things first:
1) He surely did abandon the Torah. Here you can talk to any Holocaust survivor. He will tell you how “sometimes” it is very hard to continue believing.
2) Weren't it Romans who killed him at the end? Sounds like "the deal" didn't go through.
3) Bar Kochba was a hero, who organized the fieriest resistance to Romans in the history, but unfortunately we were still expelled from Israel.
4) Well, he claimed that he was the one. How about that? ;)
5) Bar Kochba managed to harm Romans, but could not defeat them.
6) By wishing to "save Jews" I meant freeing them as a people from a long and tragic occupation.
7) He was ambitious enough to risk his life.
8} If you are referring to inquisitions and pogroms, then this is a proof that the pagan Europeans remained pagan and never became Christian. If Christianity means "mercy, love, and forgiveness", then the only people who really followed these principles were Jews.
He did not have to give freedom from the Ole Malchut Shamaim. Thousands of Jews at that time already worshipped Roman idols.
--- End quote ---
1) and they are wrong as well
2) Yes, the Romans did kill him, he got a touch too ambitious for their liking
3) Yes, Bar Kochba was defeated in the end, but he first drove the Romans from Eretz Yisrael, it was only when he did averot by allying with the Goy Samaritans that he, and Benai Yisrael were punished
4) Yes, Yeshu made the claim but distorted the idea of Mashiach away from the Torah version to the absurd beliefs he is know for
5) He did beat them, Eretz Yisrael was independant for three years, and Bar Kochba was unbeatable, it was only when he did Averot that the Romans began to win again, even then the Romans knew it to be a Pyrric victory
6) Except he had no interest in ending Roman occupation
7) In this you are correct he was extremely ambitious
8} Explain how you wish
Yes, some Jews were immersed in the Roman culture but that doesnt in any way lesson the evil inherent in encouraging rebellion from the Torah
--- End quote ---
kahaneloyalist, I respect you for being an honest and sincere debator by agreeing with good points and disagreeing with questionable ones.
ftf:
--- Quote from: judeanoncapta on June 06, 2007, 08:50:59 PM ---
--- Quote from: ftf on June 05, 2007, 02:41:51 PM ---As far as I know, Chrisitianity includes the laws of Noah, so I can't see what the issue is. I know full well what Jews think of Jesus, I also believe that the majority of Jews are going to accept as the messiah a very evil man, the one referred to as the beast or antichrist by some. You think the one we think is the messiah is evil we think that the one that you will think is the messiah is evil.
--- End quote ---
Besides the question of Trinity and idol worship, there other Noahide commandments that I have NEVER seen Christians follow. Genesis chapter 9 Noah is commanded not to eat animal blood. I've never known a Christian to refuse a medium rare bloody steak on grounds of biblical law.
Have you, ftf?
--- End quote ---
I've never thought of it as biblical law, but I don't eat animal blood, it seams repulsive to me, regarding steak, steak makes me ill if it's not really well done, if I eat a steak at a restaurant, I will ask for it well done and some more.
I must add that if the other areas of discussion in this thread are to continue, and by the current forum rules as I understand them I am not allowed to respond to them in any way I will have to regretfully leave this forum.
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