Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
Italian Zionist's question
kahaneloyalist:
--- Quote from: lubab on June 05, 2007, 10:28:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: ftf on June 05, 2007, 02:41:51 PM ---As far as I know, Chrisitianity includes the laws of Noah, so I can't see what the issue is. I know full well what Jews think of Jesus, I also believe that the majority of Jews are going to accept as the messiah a very evil man, the one referred to as the beast or antichrist by some. You think the one we think is the messiah is evil we think that the one that you will think is the messiah is evil.
--- End quote ---
I beleive that the Rambam's big problem with Christiantiy was not so much who they believe is the Messiah, but the belief in the trinity which he considered to be idol worship because you're saying there are other powers that are outside and can fight with G-d.
--- End quote ---
The Rambam did indeed have a problem with the Trinity, but if you will look at the Rambam's definition of a Ben Noach it is ;a Goy must accept the Torah and that the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach are from the Torah, and must be followed not because they are logical but because they were revealed by Hashem. He specifically says if a Goy follows another religion that happens to include the Mitzvot he is not a Ben Noach, or if he follows them because they are logical to him, he is not a Ben Noach.
Check out Rambam Hilchot Melachim its all there.
ftf:
--- Quote from: lubab on June 05, 2007, 10:28:54 PM ---
--- Quote from: ftf on June 05, 2007, 02:41:51 PM ---As far as I know, Chrisitianity includes the laws of Noah, so I can't see what the issue is. I know full well what Jews think of Jesus, I also believe that the majority of Jews are going to accept as the messiah a very evil man, the one referred to as the beast or antichrist by some. You think the one we think is the messiah is evil we think that the one that you will think is the messiah is evil.
--- End quote ---
I beleive that the Rambam's big problem with Christiantiy was not so much who they believe is the Messiah, but the belief in the trinity which he considered to be idol worship because you're saying there are other powers that are outside and can fight with G-d.
--- End quote ---
You seam to have a completely incorrect understanding of the christian concept of the trinity, we believe in only one God, we just beleive that he has three distinct parts to him, a man has arms, a body, and a head, three parts of the same man. We believe that God consists of the Father, the SOn and the holy Spirit, three components of the same God, that are as connected to each other as body ars and head of a human. We do believe that Satan exists and can fight with God, but we don;t think we should worship him, far from it.
Lisa:
Guys, as you can probably tell by now, I'm not a fan of these types of threads on this forum. If the Jewish posters have questions about Christianity, or vice versa, I think this would be best handled by private messages, where you all can hopefully be respectful of one another.
Chaim said on one of the ask JTF shows that Jews are forbidden to compartmentalize G-d in the form of a trinity, or anything else.
So I think in this area, we're all going to have to agree to disagree, OK?
judeanoncapta:
--- Quote from: ftf on June 05, 2007, 02:41:51 PM ---As far as I know, Chrisitianity includes the laws of Noah, so I can't see what the issue is. I know full well what Jews think of Jesus, I also believe that the majority of Jews are going to accept as the messiah a very evil man, the one referred to as the beast or antichrist by some. You think the one we think is the messiah is evil we think that the one that you will think is the messiah is evil.
--- End quote ---
Besides the question of Trinity and idol worship, there other Noahide commandments that I have NEVER seen Christians follow. Genesis chapter 9 Noah is commanded not to eat animal blood. I've never known a Christian to refuse a medium rare bloody steak on grounds of biblical law.
Have you, ftf?
Zvulun Ben Moshe:
--- Quote from: kahaneloyalist on June 04, 2007, 02:00:49 AM ---As for the Jesus quotes, I dont think its news that we Jews dont think highly of Jesus, while the Gemara may not be refering to your Jesus, it was a very common name at the time, if it is it shouldnt really come as a great surprise. Chaim follows a lenient opinion in regards to Christianity, the opinion of the Meiri, but other Jews like Lubavitch follow the opinion of the Rambam, that non-Jews should follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach, and through that serve Hashem, and it is our duty to bring the Goyim to the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach.
--- End quote ---
Here is what I think of the situation with Jesus.
Jesus, or to be more precise, Yeshua ben Yosef, was:
1) a Jew, first and foremost
2) a patriot
3) someone, who saw the suffering of the Jews under Roman occupation and witnessed the hopelessness of the struggle of Jewish people against the occupants
4) someone, who witnessed, along with other Jews, that Messiah was not coming despite the tragic condition of his people
5) someone, who understood that you could not defeat the strongest army of Romans with violence
6) someone, who witnessed how Jews were losing hope and faith because Messiah’s “delay”
7) someone, who took a risky path of claiming divine nature to save his people
8} someone, who could not save Jews, but refused to give up his claim
For me, Jesus is not a Messiah, but definitely a son of my people, who wanted to free Israel.
He is a lesson for me that Jews should not rely on G-d’s messengers when they can do the job on their own. They should not wait for the Messiah, in order to become righteous. But become righteous now, and that total holiness of the people will be equivalent to the coming of the Messiah.
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