Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea

Chabad and Jewish Messianism [Machon Shilo Shiur]

<< < (3/5) > >>

Ari Ben-Canaan:

--- Quote from: muman613 on February 01, 2011, 01:51:18 AM ---It does not matter to me...

I have investigated the matter because of course it was a concern to me. I know what idolatry is, and I know the difference between accepting that a man was a tzadik {which I fully believe that Rebbe Schnerson was} and believing he was Moshiach.

I do not deny that there are some who do believe this. But here, in California, I know at least four Chabad Rabbis pretty personally {I have their phone #s and know where they live}.... I have asked each one about it, and they do not believe he was Moshiach. As it is clear that Moshiach must complete a mission and Rebbe did not do so, he cannot be Moshiach. That is what Rambam said about Moshiach, he will accomplish the mission in one lifetime.

I do not listen to rabbis who knock Chassidus. I used to listen to Rabbi Mizrachi but have since ceased doing so once he laid into Breslov for their pilgrimage to Rabbi Nachmans grave in Uman. I believe that there may be some questions about whether one should go on Rosh Hashana, but I do not believe it amounts to idolatry.

There is one strange issue with Chabad. I myself do not have any images of man or animals in my home {I believe I hold a strict interpretation of making images}.... But at every Chabad house there is a painting of Rebbe.... I think it is a little bit questionable...



--- End quote ---

Have you ever asked them if their Rebbe is dead?  Or hiding?  Next time I go to Chabad I am going to ask the Chabadniks. :)

I don't disagree that Chabad is a kind or great organization, and has done great things for the Jewish people especially getting Jews to come back to Judaism.  The first time I ever put Tefflilin on was with a Chabadnik.  And the people there are accepting of everyone who comes, even if they are an abecedarian when it comes to Judaism, Hebrew and being in a Shul [I speak from experience].  Chabad, despite the personal feelings of their Rebbe and his refusal to step foot in modern day Israel, are very clear on the Halakcha about "Land for Peace", and shame other Orthodox organizations which turned blind eyes to the matter.

If you have 4 hours of listening time I do recommend the Shiur because it is interesting.  I don't agree with everything this Rabbi says; he bashed on Rebbe Kahane, Kach, and Kahanists for moment in another Shiur and it rubbed me the wrong way greatly [grrrrrrr]!  I've listened to about 10 hours of this Rabbi's Shiurim this week and its been enjoyable so far.  

I am alarmed with the practice of going to Uman and praying to the Breslov Rebbe/coin thing.  I still like Breslov teachings a lot [!], but I will never partake in that custom and frown upon it.

I do not know any Kahanist who believes our Rebbe had magical powers, defies death, will rise again, knows the secret name of G-d, or any that any Kahanist who prays to him or bring coins to his grave in expectation of redemption.  No Rebbe in history has been as defamed as our Rebbe; let them say what they will; an attack on Kahanism is an attack on Judaism!!

edu:
Contrary to the claims of Muman613 that this is just an anti-hasidic conspiracy, there are factions of followers of Rabbi Schneerson who do hold he is the messiah and there are some that go further to claim that make statements about the nature of G-d and the Rebbe that are similar to Christian claims about the nature of G-d and Jeersus. I have heard this personally (concerning G-d and the Rebbe) from at least 2 followers of Rabbi Schneerson although to be fair they are currently I believe a small minority, but if not attacked strongly have the ability to  grow.
For some background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism
I should stress that there are many Chabad Rabbis that do not believe the Rebbe is now Messiah or turn the Rebbe into the jewish version of Jeersus.
I should also be honest and admit, that I do believe the Chassidic, view of G-d as well as certain non-chassidic thinkers, who hold that everything is G-d and the physical world is just an illusion are departing from the classical Jewish view.
The classical view is that G-d is completely separate from the created world or to quote a brief translated excerpt from Rabbi Saadia gaon in Emunot Vedeot
Now this is a quote of Rabbi Saadia:
"and the third viewpoint is the viewpoint of the person that said that the Creator of the bodies created them from his own essence.
    And I found that these people can't deny the maker, however, it was not acceptable in their opinion according to what they imagine that creation can come to be from nothing [creation ex-nihilo]. And since there is no detail outside of the Creator, they assumed in their minds that he created all the things from his essence.
[A refutation of the third viewpoint]
    Now these individuals, let the Almighty have mercy on you, are more foolish than the first ones. And I saw fit to reveal their foolishness in 13 ways". 
The full Hebrew source can be found at http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/kapah/1a-2.htm#3
[שיטה שלישית: הבריאה מעצמות הבורא]
והשיטה השלישית שיטת מי שאמר כי בורא הגופות בראם מעצמותו.
ומצאתי כי האנשים הללו לא יכלו להכחיש את העושה, ועם זאת לא התקבל על דעתם לפי דמיונם הווית יש מן האין. וכיון שאין מאומה פרט לבורא, הניחו בדעתם שהוא ברא כל הדברים מעצמותו.


[דחיית השיטה השלישית]
ואלה, ירחמך האל, סכלים יותר מן הראשונים. וראיתי לגלות סכלותם בשלושה עשר פנים, מהם הארבעה אשר על בעלי הרוחניות, והם ארבע1 ראיות החידוש, וארבע ראיות הווית יש מן האין. אבל ארבעת סוגי התשובות על קדמות הרוחניות אינם מחייבים אותם2, אבל מחייבים אותם במקומם חמשה סוגים כל אחד מהם יכחישהו השכל.

הראשון מהם שינוי עניין הקדמון אשר אין לו צורה ולא תכונה ולא שיעור ולא גבול ולא מקום ולא זמן, עד שנעשה מקצתו גוף, שיש לו צורה ושיעור ותכונות ומקום וזמן וכל יתר מאורעות הנמצאים3, וזה רחוק מאוד שיעלה על הדעת.

והשני בחירת החכם4 אשר לא יבואהו צער5 ולא יפעל בו פועל ולא ישיגהו משיג, שיעשה מקצתו גוף כדי שישיגוהו המשיגים וכדי שיפעלו בו הפועלים, וכדי שיסכל אחרי החכמה6, ויצטער7 אחרי הנחת, וירעב ויצמא וידאג וייגע8 ויבואוהו שאר הרעות, והוא היה משולל מכל אלה, ואין לו צורך לרכוש בהם תועליות,9 כל שכן שלא יתכן שירכוש בהם תועלת10, אין זה אלא מתכונות ההבל.

והשלישי הצדיק אשר לא יעשה עול, היאך גזר על מקצת חלקיו להביאם בפגעים הללו? וכאשר אני מהרהר בכך מצאתי שלא ימלט מאחד משני דברים:
- או שהוא הביא עליו את זאת בצדק, ולא יתכן שיהא זה בצדק אלא בגלל עברה שעבר או דברים בלתי כשרים שעשה,
- או שיהיה שלא בצדק, ואם כן עושק עשקו ועוול עשה לו11. ועל איזה אופן שיניח המניח את הדבר - ימצאנו בטל ומבוטל12.

והרביעי היאך קבל אותו החלק פקודת יתר החלקים, עד שהוטבע ונתקן ונצטייר ונכנס תחת הצער? האם זה היה בגלל פחד שפחד, או לאיזו תקווה שהוא מקווה? ואם יהיה הדבר על אחד משני העניינים, לא יבצר שיהא טבע הכל שיירא ויקווה, או שזה טבע המקצת בלבד13.
- ואם היה זה טבע הכל מי יתן ואדע ממה הוא ירא ומה הוא מקווה, והרי אין מאומה זולתו.
- ואם היה זה טבע המקצת מאיזו סיבה נעשה המקצת מקווה וירא, והשאר לא יקווה ולא יירא?
- ואם היה שהמקצת קבל פקודת הרוב, לא לתקווה ולא מפחד, הרי זה רע14, כיון שאין לו סיבה ידועה, וכל זה שקר והתעללות15.

והחמישי מי שיכול להחזיר את חלקיו מתוך הצער והוא חכם, לא יתכן שלא יחזירם, ואם נעלה בדמיון שהוא יעשה כן, בטלו הנבראים. ואם אי אפשר בלעדיהם16 בסוף, כמו שלא היה אפשר בלעדיהם בתחילה, הרי החלקים הללו ייעשו גופים במשמרות17, כל חלק מהם יצטייר ויתהווה18 זמן מסוים, ואחר כך ישתחרר ויסתלק, ויבוא חלק אחר במקומו בהתפעלות. ועם זאת לא יתכן שיהא למשמרות הללו סוף, כי הכללות אשר הם ממנה - אין לה סוף.
וזה ממה שהשכל דוחה אותו, ותסרבנה לקבלו המחשבות הבריאות.
ואין לחשוב את הסכלים האלה בבורחם מהווית "יש מן האין", עד אשר קבעו דברי הסכלות הללו, אלא כבורח מן החום אל הרמץ19, ומן המטר אל הצינור המקלח, נוסף למה שדחו מעניין האותות והמופתים.

muman613:
Edu,

I did not deny that there are some who believe this stuff... It is simply my claim that the Chabad organization does not preach or teach or spread the idea that their Rebbe was Moshiach... Simple as that... What some kooks who are in Chabad say does not indict the entire organization.

There is a desire by some to besmirch Chabad.... I have seen these kinds of videos on youtube...

muman613:
Edu,

Do you believe that Hashem is infinite, without boundaries, and without time and space?

If so, is Hashem not everywhere? How can there exist a micron of space which is not filled with some level of Hashems presence? If you disagree you are imposing a limitation on Hashem, you are excluding Hashem and denying his omnipresence...

This is how I see the concept of sparks of divinity being expressed in physicality. Hashem is everywhere, just that in some places he is concealed, and others he is revealed...


PS: The concept of Divine sparks is not a Chabad or Chassidic only concept. It is also found in various Kabbalistic writings...

See this article section "Divine Sparks" : http://vbm-torah.org/archive/bereishit/04bereishit.htm

edu:
Muman613 you wrote:

--- Quote ---Edu,

Do you believe that Hashem is infinite, without boundaries, and without time and space?

If so, is Hashem not everywhere? How can there exist a micron of space which is not filled with some level of Hashems presence? If you disagree you are imposing a limitation on Hashem, you are excluding Hashem and denying his omnipresence...
--- End quote ---

Rabbi Saadia Gaon who as I quoted before holds the created world is different than G-d, also states the following
 in Emunot Vedeot :

--- Quote ---And I say: How shall we establish in our understanding his presence in all places, to the point where there is no place that is empty of him. Because he is prior to every place. And if the places would have separated between his parts, he would not have created them, and if there would be situation that the bodies would grab space in whole or partially, he would not have brought them into existence.
  Now since the matter is such, behold his existence after he created the bodies is like his existence before this, without change, unhidden, and without division. And it is, in accordance to what was said: "If a man hides in the hidden places but shall I not see him, says G-d? Is it not so that the Heaven and the Earth I fill".
    Now I draw the matter near for the sake of comprehension, and I will say:
    If not for the fact that some of the walls do not form a barrier against sound, and that we have become accustomed to the fact that glass does not hide the light, and we know that the dirtiness in the world does not harm the light of the sun, we would then be astounded about this. Now behold all these things teach us about the truth of his state {of being}.
--- End quote ---
In other words, Rabbi Saadia Gaon holds the 2 principles I mentioned earlier do not contradict.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page