Author Topic: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING  (Read 6226 times)

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Offline mord

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MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« on: April 14, 2011, 05:43:24 AM »
http://www.forward.com/articles/137017/    




video with above link    







Inside the student center, the tables were set with all of the Passover staples: bitter herbs, haroset, parsley sprigs and salt water, a Haggadah at each place setting. By 6:15 on a recent Friday evening, the hall had filled up with college and graduate students, alumni, faculty and a smattering of “townies” — more than 160 people in total. It was a scene reminiscent of the Seders that so many Jewish campus centers host at Passover time.

But this was no Hillel-sponsored event, a fact that would become apparent as soon as the invocation was given “in the name of Jesus Christ.” Rather, this Seder was hosted by Brigham Young University, the flagship school of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Seders have become a tradition at BYU, where nearly 99% of its 33,000 students identify as Mormon, and where, according to a university spokeswoman, there are only three Jewish students.

This year, BYU is sponsoring seven springtime Seders. Each of them is capped at 165 people, and all are sold-out affairs with long waiting lists, said Victor Ludlow, a BYU religion professor who has been organizing campus Seders for almost four decades.

“I do so many of these here,” Ludlow said, “that the Salt Lake rabbi — we were on a radio program together for the Easter-Passover season — said: ‘Professor Ludlow, here, I call him the Passover Patriarch of Provo. He does more Seders than anyone I know, except, maybe, Elijah.’”
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At two recent Seders, which Ludlow led from behind a podium draped in an Israeli flag, the professor explained the symbolism of the Seder plate and the afikomen, guided the youngest guest through an English translation of the Four Questions, and asked attendees to read aloud the story of the Israelites’ epic journey from slavery to freedom. Ludlow had everyone alternately rapt and roaring with laughter. He peppered his explanations with anecdotes about getting matzo and peanut butter sandwiches stuck to the roof of his mouth, and how, some years back, one shrewd young Seder guest, in exchange for handing over the afikomen, convinced her grandparents to take her with them to Hawaii.

Ludlow’s version of “Dayenu” included all of the customary lyrics — about the parting of the sea, the manna from heaven, the giving of the Torah — in addition to some with unique significance to the BYU community: “Had He scattered us among the nations, but not gathered us in the Rocky Mountains, dayenu; had He gathered us in the Rocky Mountains, but not given us Latter-Day Temples of our own, dayenu; had He given us Latter-Day Temples of our own, but not given us a special university, dayenu; had He given us a special university, but not a mighty basketball team, dayenu.”

Then there was the eating of the salt water-dipped parsley, the tasting of the bitter herbs — first-timers could be seen wincing and reaching for their water glasses — and the building of “Hillel sandwiches,” out of matzo, horseradish and haroset. And, finally, more than two hours after the Seder began, a chicken-and-latke dinner was served.

Most of those in attendance were participating in a Seder for the first time, though several local families said that these Passover meals have become a springtime tradition. The vast majority of guests were Mormons, but some of them touted their Jewish roots — sharing stories of their own conversion, or how their parents or grandparents had joined the Church years ago.

“My grandfather was a Jewish convert to Mormonism,” said Ryan Caplin, a 21-year-old BYU freshman, who came to the Seder with his parents, two of his siblings and their respective spouses. “I wanted to learn more about my heritage, because it’s interesting — and because, even though I’m not Jewish, it still applies.”

After the meal, Ludlow had Seder-goers participate in a series of responsive readings, rise in anticipation of greeting the prophet Elijah, and sing along to a soulful rendition of the Passover classic “Who Knows One?” It was all very traditional, even if the Manischewitz was nowhere to be found, since Mormons strictly eschew alcohol; the carafes were filled with grape juice.

In many ways, BYU is a typical college: Students cram for exams, fill the football stadium for home games and eat pizza late into the night. In other ways, though, the school sets itself apart: Those enrolled must adhere to a strict honor code that demands they abstain from using profanity, drinking coffee, tea and alcoholic beverages, engaging in homosexual behavior, and having sex outside of marriage. (The school’s honor code garnered national media attention last month, when star basketball player Brandon Davies was booted from the BYU team, after he reportedly admitted to having sex with his girlfriend.) Men are required to keep their hair closely cropped and are forbidden from growing beards or sporting body piercings; women cannot wear strapless, backless or form-fitting fashions, and are to avoid “extreme” hairstyles and colors.

The genesis of the Passover Seder on this G-Rated campus was Exodus. Specifically, it was a series of lessons that Ludlow was teaching, back in the fall of 1973, on the second of the five books of Moses. “I found that my students had a hard time connecting to The Tanach time period and events,” Ludlow said. “I decided to do it just so they could have a cultural experience, so they could socialize a little bit and identify with that important event of the Bible.”

Since that first gathering happened to coincide with the Yom Kippur War, Ludlow brought with him a small radio so that, during breaks, he could tune in to the latest news about the conflict.

Ludlow, a lifelong Mormon who graduated from BYU and earned his Ph.D. at Brandeis University, has traveled to Israel at least once a year for decades; he sometimes stays for months at a time to teach at BYU’s Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies. He said, however, that attitudes of Mormons toward Israel tend to be more complicated than those of many Evangelical Christians, who are often unflaggingly supportive of Israel.

“As Latter-Day Saints, we believe that the Jews coming to Israel and establishing a state is a fulfillment of prophesy… but that doesn’t necessarily justify the means by which they’re doing it or how they may treat other peoples,” Ludlow, who is critical of the concrete security barrier that Israel has erected, told the Forward.

Watch a video of a Brigham Young University Seder:

But it is the journey to ancient Israel, rather than the politics of modern Israel, that are the focus of Ludlow’s Passover meals.


The first time Ludlow organized a Seder on campus, he said that many of his students asked if they could bring along roommates, friends, family members and significant others. “We made accommodations for that, but the next year the boyfriend, the roommate, the cousin would come back, even if they weren’t a student of mine, and they would want to bring somebody else with them,” he said. “It just kept growing.”

Within a few years, BYU agreed to sponsor the Passover meals, and opened them up to the general public. Soon Ludlow was fielding Seder requests from Mormon wards, or congregations, across the Southwest; this year, he will lead Seders for Mormon crowds in Arizona, Texas, Idaho and nearby Salt Lake City.

Ludlow said he would continue to host campus Seders, even after he retires from academia this spring.

While it has become increasingly common for Christian groups to host Passover Seders — both because of a hunger to connect with Christianity’s Jewish roots and because of the belief that Jesus’ Last Supper may have been a Seder — for Mormons, the ritual meal has additional significance: Many of them identify with the Exodus narrative, given their ancestors’ flight from the Midwest to their own “Promised Land,” in Utah.

For BYU junior Ken Kenworthy, 22, the bitter herbs on the Passover table recall not only the suffering of the Israelites under Pharaoh, but also the past suffering of the Mormons. “Our early church history had a lot of persecution,” Kenworthy said. Mormon pioneers, like the Israelites before them, “sacrificed a lot for faith, and were ultimately willing to make a long journey” to freedom.

Kenworthy, whom Ludlow tapped to lead the musical portions of this year’s campus Seders, said that the Passover story “reinforces my faith in G-d’s ability to work the same yesterday as he does today.”

For freshman Amy Underwood, 18, who this year attended her first-ever Seder, the event’s value was largely its outreach potential. “I think it shows that we’re not just Mormons doing our own thing,” she said. “It shows that we’re open to different cultures.”

The American-born religion, which today claims 14.1 million adherents worldwide, thanks in part to its aggressive missionary work, remains mysterious to many. That may be about to change, with Mormons set to play a prominent role in national politics over the next year. Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney has launched a presidential exploratory committee, while fellow Church member Jon Huntsman Jr., who recently resigned his post as America’s ambassador to China, is also considered a potential candidate for the Republican nomination. Meanwhile, in New York, audiences are getting a satirical take on Mormonism, thanks to the Broadway musical “The Book of Mormon,” which opened last month to rave reviews.

More than 2,000 miles from the Beltway and Broadway, Ludlow said that he hopes his Seders serve not only to bring ancient history to life, but also to debunk cultural stereotypes and break down barriers between the Mormon and Jewish communities. “What we need to do is come to learn about each other as we really are, and this is one of the things that is a little bridge,” he said, noting that Mormons and Jews are increasingly inhabiting the same communities, as more Mormons move East, and Jews move West. “As long as we’re going to start being neighbors and working together on PTA committees, why not understand each other a little before we even meet?”

Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/137017/#ixzz1JUNRltEW
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 07:05:25 AM »
The saddest part is that these mormons love judaism more than many real jews.

It also shows that written torah alone is not judaism. Look at how many other religions follow our traditions. Oral torah is also a part of jewish tradition.

And yes, I read the bold lettering. What frauds!
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Zelhar

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2011, 07:35:12 AM »
The saddest part is that these mormons love judaism more than many real jews.

It also shows that written torah alone is not judaism. Look at how many other religions follow our traditions. Oral torah is also a part of jewish tradition.

And yes, I read the bold lettering. What frauds!
No they don't. They pick and chose some Jewish tradition to demonstrate their claim that they are the new or the true children of Israel.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2011, 08:39:38 AM »
The only thing more stupid than Mormonism is JW or Islam

Offline Zelhar

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2011, 02:58:25 PM »
BTW, Brigham Young "University" has a campus on mount scopus, Jerusalem.

Offline Lisa

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2011, 10:49:48 PM »
I'm just curious if they try to missionize to Jews, like that Jews for Jesus group, or the Messianics. 

Offline muman613

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2011, 01:15:59 AM »
SICK SICK SICK!

This is Chillul Hashem! They are violating so many commandments it is not even funny. How they think that this is holy is beyond me!!!

http://www.chabad.org/kids/article_cdo/aid/8778/jewish/Negative-Commandment-127.htm

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Negative Commandment 127
An uncircumcised male is prohibited from eating the Passover sacrifice

Exodus 12:48 "For no uncircumcised person shall eat of it"

An uncircumcised male, any male that did not have a "Brit Milah" is forbidden to eat the Passover sacrifice.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2011, 01:22:16 AM »
The saddest part is that these mormons love judaism more than many real jews.

It also shows that written torah alone is not judaism. Look at how many other religions follow our traditions. Oral torah is also a part of jewish tradition.

And yes, I read the bold lettering. What frauds!

Virtually all Jews who identify as Jewish partake in Passover celebration. It is a part of Jewish culture, not only religion..


Maybe you can better define what you mean by 'real Jews'... You know about the four sons, don't you?

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/467945/jewish/The-Educators-Handbook.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ProJewGreekChristian

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2011, 04:44:51 AM »
The only thing more stupid than Mormonism is JW or Islam

Agreed. I must admit, they run a tight ship in Utah. Nevertheless, they are some cookie folks. You should see their WICKED promotion of race mixing on youtube--SICK! They are so proud how they can get nice, pretty, brainwashed blond Mormon women to mate with Samoans and what not--AS LONG AS THEY MAKE "Mormon" BABIES!!! to them, yemach shemum.. not all Mormons though... but to the race-mixing Mormons, yes...
G-δ βlεss τhε Hεrοic Sεrβs---------G-δ βlεss the Diχiε Soυτh

ALL of Israel belongs to the Jews, G-d's chosen people!

Offline mord

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 04:47:39 AM »
Agreed. I must admit, they run a tight ship in Utah. Nevertheless, they are some cookie folks. You should see their WICKED promotion of race mixing on youtube--SICK! They are so proud how they can get nice, pretty, brainwashed blond Mormon women to mate with Samoans and what not--AS LONG AS THEY MAKE "Mormon" BABIES!!! to them, yemach shemum.. not all Mormons though... but to the race-mixing Mormons, yes...
yes i'v seen the advertisements on youtube
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 06:08:30 AM »

born to a jewish mother


Virtually all Jews who identify as Jewish partake in Passover celebration. It is a part of Jewish culture, not only religion..


Maybe you can better define what you mean by 'real Jews'... You know about the four sons, don't you?

http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/467945/jewish/The-Educators-Handbook.htm

If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Rubystars

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2011, 12:03:34 PM »
Agreed. I must admit, they run a tight ship in Utah. Nevertheless, they are some cookie folks. You should see their WICKED promotion of race mixing on youtube--SICK! They are so proud how they can get nice, pretty, brainwashed blond Mormon women to mate with Samoans and what not--AS LONG AS THEY MAKE "Mormon" BABIES!!! to them, yemach shemum.. not all Mormons though... but to the race-mixing Mormons, yes...

I wasn't even aware of that aspect. I thought they were a mostly white group. Now I think they're even more terrible.

Offline ProJewGreekChristian

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2011, 04:47:40 AM »
I went to boarding school in Utah. They're very civilized and nice people but are NOT Christian and are cultish, if not an outright cult. Almost all the gang banging somoans in Utah and many of the scvartZas claimed to be Mormons and were imports from the third world; of course, they reverted back to their primitive ways. Bringing these people here is a wicked crime
G-δ βlεss τhε Hεrοic Sεrβs---------G-δ βlεss the Diχiε Soυτh

ALL of Israel belongs to the Jews, G-d's chosen people!

Offline Zelhar

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2011, 02:26:46 PM »
I went to boarding school in Utah. They're very civilized and nice people but are NOT Christian and are cultish, if not an outright cult. Almost all the gang banging somoans in Utah and many of the scvartZas claimed to be Mormons and were imports from the third world; of course, they reverted back to their primitive ways. Bringing these people here is a wicked crime
What is your problem with the Samoans, what have they ever done wrong or evil ?  Surely they don't have the jungle mentality that most blacks posses.

Offline ProJewGreekChristian

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2011, 01:33:50 AM »
What is your problem with the Samoans, what have they ever done wrong or evil ?  Surely they don't have the jungle mentality that most blacks posses.
nothing to me. and no, they're not the same as blacks. Nevertheless, America is a country primarily for Europeans; of course, there are exceptions (e.g. Asians) But mixing with white women. YES I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, and, although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

So to recap: I am against importing people from the third world and against watering down the European race, the former of which Mormons ACTIVELY do, the latter, they support and promote.

I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?
G-δ βlεss τhε Hεrοic Sεrβs---------G-δ βlεss the Diχiε Soυτh

ALL of Israel belongs to the Jews, G-d's chosen people!

Offline Rubystars

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2011, 03:03:24 AM »
although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

That's how I feel too. I don't like race mixing of white men either but women are worse in some ways because a race proceeds from its women. A white child must come from both a white mother and a white father.

Quote
I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?

It's not racist but many people won't understand that. It's self-preservation and survival.

Offline ProJewGreekChristian

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2011, 03:50:27 AM »
Gosh Ruby stars, you are a wonderful woman. I wish more women held the views you do. Are you married? haha

What you say is right on: it's worse for women to mix not because men are sexists pigs who hold double standards but their biological clock only allots them so many babies, and therefrom whitey emanates. So, given the white woman's limitations regarding procreation, if she expends her ovaries on non-whites, even if she wanted to, there would be no time left for white procreation.

Although it''s just as morally repugnant for white men to mix, they could do so and still bring many beautiful white babies into this earth.

G-δ βlεss τhε Hεrοic Sεrβs---------G-δ βlεss the Diχiε Soυτh

ALL of Israel belongs to the Jews, G-d's chosen people!

Offline Zelhar

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2011, 05:26:23 AM »
nothing to me. and no, they're not the same as blacks. Nevertheless, America is a country primarily for Europeans; of course, there are exceptions (e.g. Asians) But mixing with white women. YES I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, and, although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

So to recap: I am against importing people from the third world and against watering down the European race, the former of which Mormons ACTIVELY do, the latter, they support and promote.

I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?
Samoa which is a tiny pacific Island nation was a colony of European (Germany, UK) and western (USA, New Zealand) countries until the 1960s. American Samoa is an American territory to this day. Do you think American whites has the right to export themselves to Samoa but native Samoans have no right to set foot on America ?

The total global population of Samoans is probably less than 1 million. There are far more Mormons than Samoans. So I actually think that If the Mormons are After the Samoans, trying to mix with them and wipe out their identity than the Samoans are the real victims here.

I do think that rejection of racial mixing is a legitimate principle to hold as a personal choice, But that it wouldn't be right to forbid it by law.

Offline ProJewGreekChristian

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2011, 02:05:17 PM »
I do think that rejection of racial mixing is a legitimate principle to hold as a personal choice, But that it wouldn't be right to forbid it by law.

Well, I disagree it wouldn't be right, at least in certain cases, like making black and white relations forbidden by law but everything else just taboo.  Much of the world accepted this principle for a long time.

But, on somoa,  assuming what you said is true, you're right that we don't have the right in most cases to do those types of things. But if you've been to Utah, that's one thing that'll catch your eye, all the Samoans. They also import a lot of Kenyans. These people are completely and utterly brought here by Mormons; they did not come here on their own volition, other than they agreed to; the mormons convinced them to come and paid for their tickets, more or less.The idea that the Mormon Church is making it their mission to bring people here is very sick. Now, if decent Samoans wanted to move here since we colonized them, I guess it would be somewhat difficult to reject them from coming here... I don;t know... but mixing with whites after coming here is a different story.
G-δ βlεss τhε Hεrοic Sεrβs---------G-δ βlεss the Diχiε Soυτh

ALL of Israel belongs to the Jews, G-d's chosen people!

Offline t_h_j

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2011, 09:15:24 PM »
nothing to me. and no, they're not the same as blacks. Nevertheless, America is a country primarily for Europeans; of course, there are exceptions (e.g. Asians) But mixing with white women. YES I DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, and, although JTF does not agree with this, I could care less how righteous they are, they should keep their hands off white women.

So to recap: I am against importing people from the third world and against watering down the European race, the former of which Mormons ACTIVELY do, the latter, they support and promote.

I'm not saying others are subhuman or less human than Europeans, but don't you think we should be allowed to stay European? or is that racist?

what exactly is the European race?

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2011, 11:21:57 PM »
I disagree with anti race mixing between jews. Jews should marry jews no matter what the race is. I can't speak for other peoples and religions. Those who are against race mixing are entitled to their opinions.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

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Offline Rubystars

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2011, 11:50:11 PM »
I disagree with anti race mixing between jews. Jews should marry jews no matter what the race is. I can't speak for other peoples and religions. Those who are against race mixing are entitled to their opinions.

Jews are a special case because they form their own people. Jews are a national identity all to themselves.

Offline Masha

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2011, 04:44:26 AM »
Mormon religion is very weird, and I want no part of it. However, I have been to Utah and Brigham Young campus. They have a very nice art museum there. The students were very nicely and decently dressed, all white. The only thing I didn't like was that they didn't sell coffee on campus. I need my one or two cups of coffee a day.

I was very favorably impressed both by Utah and Brigham Young. I was much more negative about mormonism until I visited Utah and saw what it looked like. Now I am applying the "by their deeds you shall know them" criterion. Mormonism has been around for a while now. And what do we see? Utah looks very prosperous. The prices are low. People are polite. The service is good. It is a real success story in a nation that is falling apart. The Mormons are very entrepreneural, opening a lot of businesses and creating many jobs. They help each other and don't use government handouts. Everyone is nicely dressed, bringing you in mind of the 19th century and how people dressed then. They support and engage in arts, and there are good museums, concert halls, and operas.

So I am reluctant to call them wolves, even though their ways and not my ways.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2011, 06:23:09 PM »
Mormonism is insane but many individual Mormons are really wonderful people.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: MORMONISM A WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2011, 10:19:46 PM »