Author Topic: Is a righteous gentile saved? (Read 26930 times)

SanDiegoShana · « **on:** June 10, 2007, 11:32:51 PM »

and how do (we) know we are righteous?

jdl4ever · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2007, 12:51:59 AM »

Yes. If you do the 7 laws of Noah then you are righteous.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2007, 12:52:13 AM »

Well, their actions would have to match their speech, for starters.

SanDiegoShana · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2007, 01:15:23 AM »

What is eating a limb torn from a live animal? And how do we know if we are doing this?

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2007, 01:18:19 AM »

Quote from: SanDiegoShana on June 11, 2007, 01:15:23 AM

What is eating a limb torn from a live animal? And how do we know if we are doing this?

It just means eating meat that was taken from an animal while it was still alive. I think as long as you're buying your meat at a store your pretty safe.

SanDiegoShana · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2007, 02:17:36 AM »

Who is Jimmy Sullivan?

...I think I answered my question...he's a JTF'er no doubt...

Until Shiloh Comes · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2007, 11:15:08 AM »

Quote from: SanDiegoShana on June 10, 2007, 11:32:51 PM

and how do (we) know we are righteous?

Hello my friend, and good day to you.

When I see the term "saved" it seems like you're speaking from a Christian slant. The Torah perspective is not that man is evil and lost, and is born with the stain of "original sin". Are you interested in what the Torah has to say about the destiny of the nations of the world?

Lubab · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2007, 12:24:25 PM »

Quote from: OdKahaneChai on June 11, 2007, 01:18:19 AM

Quote from: SanDiegoShana on June 11, 2007, 01:15:23 AM
What is eating a limb torn from a live animal? And how do we know if we are doing this?
It just means eating meat that was taken from an animal while it was still alive. I think as long as you're buying your meat at a store your pretty safe.

Not exactly. Many non-Kosher butchers will start cutting the meat while the animal is an an unconscious state (they shock them) but not yet dead. Eating such meat would be a serious violation. It is recommended to buy Kosher meat to avoid this problem as apparently Jimmy does.

Also I'm told that on the show "Fear Factor" they will sometimes violate this prohibition by having people eat live stuff.

Also I think UntilShilohComes hits the nail on the head again here. The idea of "savior" is more of a Christian idea. In Judaism we beleive in hevean and hell, but they are nothing like what most people believe they are. Our main focus is in making THIS world into a place where G-d's presence is revealed. With that said, there is tremendous reward for those who follow the Noachide commandments in this world and the next.

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2007, 04:14:10 PM »

Quote from: lubab on June 11, 2007, 12:24:25 PM

Quote from: OdKahaneChai on June 11, 2007, 01:18:19 AM
Quote from: SanDiegoShana on June 11, 2007, 01:15:23 AM
What is eating a limb torn from a live animal? And how do we know if we are doing this?
It just means eating meat that was taken from an animal while it was still alive. I think as long as you're buying your meat at a store your pretty safe.

Not exactly. Many non-Kosher butchers will start cutting the meat while the animal is an an unconscious state (they shock them) but not yet dead. Eating such meat would be a serious violation. It is recommended to buy Kosher meat to avoid this problem as apparently Jimmy does.

Also I'm told that on the show "Fear Factor" they will sometimes violate this prohibition by having people eat live stuff.

Eww... that's disgusting. And as for Fear Factor, I'm not surprised. What a stupid show that was. "To win the money, all you have to do is eat these pig's testicles!"

Shlomo · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2007, 10:16:35 PM »

Quote from: OdKahaneChai on June 11, 2007, 04:14:10 PM

Eww... that's disgusting. And as for Fear Factor, I'm not surprised. What a stupid show that was. "To win the money, all you have to do is eat these pig's testicles!"

NOT kosher! lol

SanDiegoShana · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2007, 11:49:43 PM »

Actually, I read the term "Saved" on this site, but I can't find the post at the moment....Something to do with Judaism being different from other religions in that under Judaism "righteous gentiles" could be saved...

Hence my question...

kahaneloyalist · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2007, 12:35:41 AM »

I suppose the author of that post was using terms that everyone on the forum could understand.

SanDiegoShana · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2007, 02:39:20 PM »

ok, so what is the after life, and if there is a good place to be rather than bad, does a righteous gentile wind up in the good place? And do the seven laws of Noah determine the righteousness of a gentile?

OdKahaneChai · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2007, 09:59:35 PM »

Quote from: SanDiegoShana on June 12, 2007, 02:39:20 PM

ok, so what is the after life, and if there is a good place to be rather than bad, does a righteous gentile wind up in the good place? And do the seven laws of Noah determine the righteousness of a gentile?

Talk to lubab about this.

SanDiegoShana · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2007, 10:15:57 AM »

And who is Lubab?

jdl4ever · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2007, 04:14:50 PM »

He's the Rabbi of this section.

Lubab · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2007, 04:41:54 PM »

Quote from: SanDiegoShana on June 12, 2007, 02:39:20 PM

ok, so what is the after life, and if there is a good place to be rather than bad, does a righteous gentile wind up in the good place? And do the seven laws of Noah determine the righteousness of a gentile?

Yes Shana, I'm the all knowing Rabbi which you seek

. What a joke.

Anyway I do know a thing or two about the after-life because it is treated in depth in hasidic manuscripts.

1. "what is the after life?"

There are two stage or aspects of the after-life. One is souls without bodies and the other is souls within bodies also known as the period of the resurrection of the dead.

2. "is [there] a good place to be rather than bad?

Yes there is a good and bad "place" except that it's really all the same "place". It's a spiritual "place", not a physical "place".

The after-life is simply a direct perception of G-dliness and the ultimate truth.
For those who lived truth and revolved their lives around doing what G-d wants...it's heaven. For those who didn't...it's hell.

(But it's only temporary. Everybody eventually breaks out of those preconceived false notions they had, but it's a painful process. Many people go through hell in this life and that spares them from the hell of the next world. That's why in JTF we like to give people hell.

It's good for them in the long run.

)

3. "does a righteous gentile wind up in the good place?"

Yes.

4. "And do the seven laws of Noah determine the righteousness of a gentile?

That is a large part of the determination, but it's not the only thing.

G-d willing some time I'll post a hasidic manuscript on this topic I'm sure you'll find very interesting.

jdl4ever · « **Reply #17 on:** June 13, 2007, 05:11:13 PM »

Lubab, you think heaven and hell are the same place? I don't. Where do you get this idea from?

shimon · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2007, 06:02:16 PM »

yes judaism does not believe in a christian hell in which the devil whips you we believe that u just have to learn what you did wrong in your lifetime.it shows the sinner how much of a righteous person he couldve been and were hee went wrong. the sinner will hopefully learn from what he did and accepet his punishment from god

jdl4ever · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:30:05 PM »

Well, that's not the hell in my branch of Judaism. The Talmud lists the punishments of certain evil people in hell and it describes actual punishments like boiling inside something and stuff like that. Lubab, do you know which tractate this was in?

Lubab · « **Reply #20 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:43:19 PM »

Quote from: jdl4ever on June 13, 2007, 07:30:05 PM

Well, that's not the hell in my branch of Judaism. The Talmud lists the punishments of certain evil people in hell and it describes actual punishments like boiling inside something and stuff like that. Lubab, do you know which tractate this was in?

JDL4ever,

I'll try to get you sources when I have time. But you are correct that the Talmud lists certain types of punishments in physical terms becasue this is all people can understand. However, the Talmud also states that those punishments are allegorical. Heaven and hell are spiritual "places" not physical ones. In truth the spiritual pain is much worse than physical pain and the spiritual pleasure much greater than physical pleasure-so this is not to minimize it. .But in the first kind of after-life, the one where the soul is separated from the body-the body stays here-so there cannot be hell in the physical sense that most ppl. understand it to be.

JDL4ever: read the rest of the post and you'll see what I mean.

jdl4ever · « **Reply #21 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:47:03 PM »

That was a very good answer Lubab, as the Rambam says that the Torah speaks allegorically in the language that people understand.

My only problem is that you don't know exactly what hell is like and you are saying things that suggest that you do know what it is like and you are inadvertently minimizing it while in fact it would be best to keep it as the Talmud describes it even if it is allegorical.

Lubab · « **Reply #22 on:** June 13, 2007, 07:54:16 PM »

Quote from: jdl4ever on June 13, 2007, 07:47:03 PM

That was a good answer Lubab, as the Rambam says that the Torah speaks allegorically in the language that people understand. My only problem is that you don't know exactly what hell is like and you are saying things that suggest that you do know what it is like and you are inadvertently minimizing it while in fact it would be best to keep it as the Talmud describes it even if it is allegorical.

I said it's a direct perception of G-dliness, I didn't know anyone would think that's implying I know exactly what it's like. I'm flattered though

.

By the way the indirect quote from the Talmud is: "In the next world there is no eating and no drinking, the righteous sit with 'crowns' on their heads and take pleasure from the splendor of the Shechina" (revelation of G-d).

Lubab · « **Reply #23 on:** June 13, 2007, 08:57:16 PM »

I should add that the Torah does give some examples of ways we could have a glimpse into what the next world is like. It says Torah learning is "Mein Olam Haba" a glimpse of the world to come. And it also says that Shabbos is also compared to the next world in our prayers we say after we eat. Physical suffering is like 1/60 (I beleive) of what we call hell.

(NOTE: not true for gentiles, gentiles are not allowed to keep the sabbath).

SanDiegoShana · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2007, 12:50:18 AM »

A related question I have as a Christian- I often wonder if G-d had one requirement for Gentiles in the book of Moses, why a different set of rules now, if G-d is unchanging, as we believe He is....are any of the promises to Abraham promises to the Gentiles? What about the law to tithe and the promises to fill the barns, applicable to Gentiles?