Moshe Feiglin Speaks about Glenn Beck

[cjd]

Believing it's holy is fine.   Believing it belongs to anyone other than Jews in the Jewish homeland is not fine.  Believing the rightful ownership is anything other than jewish is not fine.

Otherwise any such Christian is simply repeating the mistaken deeds of the catholic church as from day 1 they used all of their political power and influence that they possibly could to wrest Jerusalem away from the Jews.  That effort to make Jerusalem "international" persists to this very day and it has taken the form of giving half that capital to the enemies of the Jewish people and making the holy cites run by international/foreign forces  (back to the days of the british mandate, let the pogroms begin).   And that is the result of any attitutde that says Jerusalem does not belong to the Jews.

Which Catholic church would you be referencing now? There are a few as you well know...  I am sure you mean the Pope and the evil RCC... I don't believe the RCC wanted Jerusalem as bad as you think they do because if they really did I am sure they might have had it by now... The way things are going it will soon be in muslim hands anyway which will make it almost inaccessible to everyone but the muslims... Israels leadership  doesn't seem to want to hold the line on that or the two state solution... As I said most normal Christians only want access to the holy sites not control... As is mostly the case with Israel the bugaboo is the issue thats getting all the attention.... At the end of the day surprise' surprise they will end up the the dreaded two state solution because everyones eyes were diverted from the actual issue.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Which Catholic church would you be referencing now? There are a few as you well know...  I am sure you mean the Pope and the evil RCC... I don't believe the RCC wanted Jerusalem as bad as you think they do because if they really did I am sure they might have had it by now...   

 

First of all, I was not aware that there was a catholic church other than the RCC.  Then wouldn't it not be catholic?   

Secondly, if Beck adopts the same stance, it doesn't matter if he's Catholic, or Mormon, or Buddhist, or Atheist.   It's equally wrong.


As to the RCC "not wanting jerusalem badly," I'm sorry to say this but you are blissfully unaware of the history.    The whole idea that Jews could return a presence (let alone a control over) to Jerusalem was a point of theological contention that basically sank Catholic theology when it happened.   And you can damn well bet that they were fuming and trying every last measure to prevent it from happening, and the history of the actions they took bears this out. 

[cjd]

First of all, I was not aware that there was a catholic church other than the RCC.  Then wouldn't it not be catholic?   

Secondly, if Beck adopts the same stance, it doesn't matter if he's Catholic, or Mormon, or Buddhist, or Atheist.   It's equally wrong.


As to the RCC "not wanting jerusalem badly," I'm sorry to say this but you are blissfully unaware of the history.    The whole idea that Jews could return a presence (let alone a control over) to Jerusalem was a point of theological contention that basically sank Catholic theology when it happened.   And you can damn well bet that they were fuming and trying every last measure to prevent it from happening, and the history of the actions they took bears this out. 

There are quite a few Catholic churches.... Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, RCC, Russian Orthodox... In the past I am sure the RCC church tried to get their grips on Jerusalem just as the Muslims did and are still trying to do... Today however I believe that it would suffice the church enough to have access to its holy sites... The main point of this thread was about Becks activity in Israel... In my opinion I think he has nothing but good intentions... I think Feiglin is tossing out a red herring for distraction however this is only my opinion on the situation.     

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

There are quite a few Catholic churches.... Anglican, Eastern Orthodox, ... Russian Orthodox...

I don't believe they call themselves "catholic."   Christian maybe, but not Catholic.   Am I wrong?

[jbeige]

I have never seen a post change course like this one did.
All I will say is there is good and bad in all people and religion has nothing to do with it.
There are bad Christians and good Christians, and Yes there are good Jewish people and there are bad
As far as anyone bringing up the Mormons that is their religion just like the Jewish people and Christians believe in their religion,  
I say any religion that's doesn't want to kill people and doesn't fly planes into buildings is ok with me.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

And it's funny you say they are fine with just having access to holy sites, because if that was the case, they have had access for as long as Israel has controlled the sites, and they will certainly lose access if they put the muslims in charge.    They might as well leave well alone if thats all they wanted, and yet we see their strong push to divide the capital city and to take control of holy sites AWAY from the Israelis.   That to me proves that they are not happy with just access to the sites.

[jbeige]

And it's funny you say they are fine with just having access to holy sites, because if that was the case, they have had access for as long as Israel has controlled the sites, and they will certainly lose access if they put the muslims in charge.    They might as well leave well alone if thats all they wanted, and yet we see their strong push to divide the capital city and to take control of holy sites AWAY from the Israelis.   That to me proves that they are not happy with just access to the sites.

When you see the Pope and a bunch of cardinals and church ladies parachuting into the holy sites then you should worry until then I think Israel will keep control of the holy land unless they give it away to the muslims.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

When you see the Pope and a bunch of cardinals and church ladies parachuting into the holy sites then you should worry until then I think Israel will keep control of the holy land unless they give it away to the muslims.

The amount of ignorance of history here is unfortunate.

But this you could know from really recent current events:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3194646,00.html
"Vatican also wants Jerusalem?

Vatican envoy: Israel, [Fak]estinians cannot be trusted to safeguard holy sites

Ahiya Raved
Published:    01.04.06, 00:08 / Israel News
   
Israel cannot be trusted? The Vatican's legal advisor in Israel, David Jaeger, harshly criticized Israel’s policy regarding safeguarding Christian holy sites."



  Aside from that article which I recommend reading, there is also Israeli history.    Like I said, From Day One.  You think that the Vatican has no political sway?
In addition, listen to what the pope says every once in a while and you will see that the Vatican believes Jerusalem is under occupation.

[muman613]

Jerusalem will always be the Holiest site of Judaism no matter what other religions attempted to claim it as their own. I feel the same, I think, as KWRBT. Although I am not sure what Mr. Becks intentions are, and it is my nature to always extend the benefit of the doubt to every man and woman until I have reason to not do so.

I have a friend who is a mormon and I have no problem with it. Although we cannot really discuss religion because on several occasions he has said things which set me off, and in the hope of friendship I bite my lip. But I do think that someone needs to stand up and tell the truth, and I don't see any really strong Jews in the media who are standing up for Israel. Why is this? I cannot really answer. Maybe it is the fear of being accused of being a part of the 'global zionist conspiracy' or something. I do believe that many good intentioned Jews, myself included, often spend too much time worrying if something I do will make people hate Jews more. I have come to the point of not hiding my zionist intentions in any way. I am not a part of any conspiracy, I am a part of a historic movement for the betterment of Jews scattered to the four corners of the world.

I want the nations of the world to come to realize that Hashem is the One G-d of all the world, of all the people, and the creator of everything. I believe it is hard for them to really understand what the big deal to religious Jews concerning these matters. Only a Jew who comes from a people who have been persecuted at the hands of so many 'good meaning' peoples around the world can really understand the suspicion that some of us have. I fully appreciate the help given to Israel and the Jewish people. There are many good people who have helped the Jews in our mission and I surely believe that they have merit and will be rewarded.

May we all merit to see the redemption, and we will all know the truth...

[jbeige]

The amount of ignorance of history here is unfortunate.

But this you could know from really recent current events:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3194646,00.html
"Vatican also wants Jerusalem?

Vatican envoy: Israel, [Fak]estinians cannot be trusted to safeguard holy sites

Ahiya Raved
Published:    01.04.06, 00:08 / Israel News
   
Israel cannot be trusted? The Vatican's legal advisor in Israel, David Jaeger, harshly criticized Israel’s policy regarding safeguarding Christian holy sites."



  Aside from that article which I recommend reading, there is also Israeli history.    Like I said, From Day One.  You think that the Vatican has no political sway?
In addition, listen to what the pope says every once in a while and you will see that the Vatican believes Jerusalem is under occupation.

So you are taking one small man's word, come on lets be real here.
It's very sad when people get paranoid.

[jbeige]

Jerusalem will always be the Holiest site of Judaism no matter what other religions attempted to claim it as their own. I feel the same, I think, as KWRBT. Although I am not sure what Mr. Becks intentions are, and it is my nature to always extend the benefit of the doubt to every man and woman until I have reason to not do so.

I have a friend who is a mormon and I have no problem with it. Although we cannot really discuss religion because on several occasions he has said things which set me off, and in the hope of friendship I bite my lip. But I do think that someone needs to stand up and tell the truth, and I don't see any really strong Jews in the media who are standing up for Israel. Why is this? I cannot really answer. Maybe it is the fear of being accused of being a part of the 'global zionist conspiracy' or something. I do believe that many good intentioned Jews, myself included, often spend too much time worrying if something I do will make people hate Jews more. I have come to the point of not hiding my zionist intentions in any way. I am not a part of any conspiracy, I am a part of a historic movement for the betterment of Jews scattered to the four corners of the world.

I want the nations of the world to come to realize that Hashem is the One G-d of all the world, of all the people, and the creator of everything. I believe it is hard for them to really understand what the big deal to religious Jews concerning these matters. Only a Jew who comes from a people who have been persecuted at the hands of so many 'good meaning' peoples around the world can really understand the suspicion that some of us have. I fully appreciate the help given to Israel and the Jewish people. There are many good people who have helped the Jews in our mission and I surely believe that they have merit and will be rewarded.

May we all merit to see the redemption, and we will all know the truth...

You are right sometimes you are better off not talking to friends about religion or politics.

[cjd]

And it's funny you say they are fine with just having access to holy sites, because if that was the case, they have had access for as long as Israel has controlled the sites, and they will certainly lose access if they put the muslims in charge.    They might as well leave well alone if thats all they wanted, and yet we see their strong push to divide the capital city and to take control of holy sites AWAY from the Israelis.   That to me proves that they are not happy with just access to the sites.

To be honest it bothers me also when the RCC mixes into the question of the two state solution... As long as Jews retain control of the Holy Land there would never be a problem for people wishing to visit doing so... I think the church might be doing a few things to hedge their bets because they feel Israel will eventually give the muslims what they are after... As you say however little does the church know they will have no access despite all the tuckus kissing they are doing....The church is also a very politically correct organization and this is the type of policy that comes out of thinking like that... Brass tacks sad to say its no worse then some of the thinking that comes out of Israels own government... Contrary to what it may seem I am not a staunch defender of the church however I do become disturbed when people become distracted from the real issues by looking towards Rome for the root of the problem... I honestly don't see it being there in today's world.

[cjd]

I don't believe they call themselves "catholic."   Christian maybe, but not Catholic.   Am I wrong?

I have been told time and time again by our Serbian members that they are the real Catholics.... It's been an ongoing debate here for years here on the forum... For me Christians are religions like the Baptists, Mormons, Methodists and the like... Who knows.... Honestly I don't have problem with most G-d fearing people as long as they allow others to follow their own religions in peace.

[Dr. Dan]

I think the question that comes into my mind is if there is as much merit if a righteous gentile brings about redemption and wakes up the Jewish people versus if it was a righteous Jew.

Let's assume beck's intentions are good and one that a righteous gentile would do.  We as jtfers should be happy.  If it brings about the redemption of the Jewish people and saving Israel, is as meritorious compared to if it were a Jew doing the same thing?

Some here on the forum might believe it doesn't matter while I feel others here who are Jewish would feel embarrassed that there wasn't a Jew who should have done the same thing as beck.  (I'm sure many Jews have tried and have been shot down.)

My opinion is that the most merit comes when as large a number of righteous Jews together bring about the redemption versus one person.  Amongst these Jews it is even better when righteous Gentiles are amongst them.  I think this is what jtf is.

Feiglin shouldn't be complaining.  He should be embarrassed that he joined Likud instead of creating a separate mass movement political party.  Face it, he compromised his ideals.  He's a good guy, but not good enough.  Chaim and all of here are good enough.  Kahane was good enough. 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have been told time and time again by our Serbian members that they are the real Catholics.... It's been an ongoing debate here for years here on the forum... For me Christians are religions like the Baptists, Mormons, Methodists and the like... Who knows.... Honestly I don't have problem with most G-d fearing people as long as they allow others to follow their own religions in peace.

Oh, that's interesting.  I didn't know that.   The media refers to "The Catholic Church" and they definitely mean the Roman Catholic Church (vatican), but I guess there are people who object to that.  Good to know.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

So you are taking one small man's word, come on lets be real here.
It's very sad when people get paranoid.

HE'S THE VATICAN ENVOY!?   YOU DON'T THINK HE REPRESENTS THE VATICAN'S VIEWS?!!!   

OH MY WORD

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

jbeige, it's hilarious you call it paranoia.    Did you not pay attention to 60 plus years of history when the Vatican, the Pope, his envoys, his cardinals, and all the people who represent his church constantly insisted that Jerusalem must be made an international city?    After the 6 day war, you didn't pay attention to the cables that were sent saying Israel must leave there?

Please do not call me paranoid because you are ignorant of history.

[Rubystars]

Believing it's holy is fine.   Believing it belongs to anyone other than Jews in the Jewish homeland is not fine.  Believing the rightful ownership is anything other than jewish is not fine.

Otherwise any such Christian is simply repeating the mistaken deeds of the catholic church as from day 1 they used all of their political power and influence that they possibly could to wrest Jerusalem away from the Jews.  That effort to make Jerusalem "international" persists to this very day and it has taken the form of giving half that capital to the enemies of the Jewish people and making the holy cites run by international/foreign forces  (back to the days of the british mandate, let the pogroms begin).   And that is the result of any attitutde that says Jerusalem does not belong to the Jews.

Did Glenn Beck ever say it should belong to anyone but Jews?

[Dr. Dan]

Did Glenn Beck ever say it should belong to anyone but Jews?

 
I don't think he has ever said that.  However, there are a lot of Jews on the left and right who don't trust the intentions of non Jews' pro-Israel stance.  At best, they take it with a grain of salt.

Why is this?  Because of a bitter history between Christians and Jews that we cannot deny didn't take place.  In the Israeli school systems, I assume they really get into it..(and unfortunately, they don't get into it about the Muslims half as much).

I can understand the guilty until proven innocent mentality.  To each their own.  But if you are going to have this kind of distrust of someone like Glen Beck, or let's say, Bachmann and Huckabee, who are born again Christians, where is that more outspoken distrust to the Muslim and Arab leaders then?  Those are the ones who want to pursue Jewish and Israeli blood; not Huckabee, Bachmann and Glen Beck!

I embrace the righteous gentiles support so long as they understand what KWRBT and Muman have been saying.  Israel belongs to the Jews, righteous gentiles are welcome. Their love and support are welcome.  It is a commandment and a mitzvah for a rigtheous gentile to love the Jewish people. Those who bless us will be blessed and those who curse us will be cursed. 

And appropriately, us Jews should have grace and love for righteous gentiles much like we have love for our fellow Jews.  Even though gentiles are commanded to love the Jewish people, I believe, us Jews, should still say, "Thank you, and Gd bless you."

[briann]

i Think this all comes from systematic brainwashing, the same thing that has happened here in the U.S.

Jews are taught to NOT trust gentiles and to be TOLERANT of everything else (Including Islam).  Members of Peace Now have this hard-wired in them... so if they see Glen Beck supporting Israel, it goes against everything that was programmed into them.... They absolutely CANNOT have Right-wing Gentiles disrupt their brainwashed preconceived ideas and they REFUSE to let Judaism be perceived as anything other than Leftist.

if 50% of Muslims say the Hollocaust is a myth, Leftist Jews ignores it...... But if Glen Beck says, 'I share your God' the Leftists focus in on it with a laser... and say.... Look, its the Spanish Inquisition.

[muman613]

i Think this all comes from systematic brainwashing, the same thing that has happened here in the U.S.

Jews are taught to NOT trust gentiles and to be TOLERANT of everything else (Including Islam).  Members of Peace Now have this hard-wired in them... so if they see Glen Beck supporting Israel, it goes against everything that was programmed into them.... They absolutely CANNOT have Right-wing Gentiles disrupt their brainwashed preconceived ideas and they REFUSE to let Judaism be perceived as anything other than Leftist.

if 50% of Muslims say the Hollocaust is a myth, Leftist Jews ignores it...... But if Glen Beck says, 'I share your G-d' the Leftists focus in on it with a laser... and say.... Look, its the Spanish Inquisition.

But Moshe Feiglin is not on the left, and there is an issue even with the religious right concerning Beck... There is a problem that the Christians are just expecting the Jews to conveniently forget about ages of persecution for not believing in their messiah. Where my family emigrated from in the Ukraine there were massive pogroms against the Jews. Look at the list of places the Jews were expelled from over the centuries and it is hard to say that they were all exiled because they were liberal leftists.

I do agree that the liberal left hates Beck. I do not hate him in the least. I just have legitimate questions as to the reasons for his support of Israel. As KWRBT has pointed out the recent history shows that the vatican and other christian apparatuses really want to get land in Israel for their churches and want to make Jerusalem an 'international city'.

But I disagree with you Briann that our discussion here has anything to do with left wing self-hating Jews.

[Rubystars]

 
I don't think he has ever said that.  However, there are a lot of Jews on the left and right who don't trust the intentions of non Jews' pro-Israel stance.  At best, they take it with a grain of salt.

Why is this?  Because of a bitter history between Christians and Jews that we cannot deny didn't take place.  In the Israeli school systems, I assume they really get into it..(and unfortunately, they don't get into it about the Muslims half as much).

I think the irony in this is that they are attacking not the Christians that are anti-Semitic but the ones who aren't, as if they don't fit what a Christian should be somehow in their eyes and want to some how correct them and say 'no, you're an anti-Semite, stop lying to yourself and to us'. So then the Christian either says 'fine you have this attitude I WILL be then' or they have patience and try not to let such behavior drive them away or over the edge. The second choice is obviously the better one.

[Dr. Dan]

But Moshe Feiglin is not on the left, and there is an issue even with the religious right concerning Beck... There is a problem that the Christians are just expecting the Jews to conveniently forget about ages of persecution for not believing in their messiah. Where my family emigrated from in the Ukraine there were massive pogroms against the Jews. Look at the list of places the Jews were expelled from over the centuries and it is hard to say that they were all exiled because they were liberal leftists.

I do agree that the liberal left hates Beck. I do not hate him in the least. I just have legitimate questions as to the reasons for his support of Israel. As KWRBT has pointed out the recent history shows that the vatican and other christian apparatuses really want to get land in Israel for their churches and want to make Jerusalem an 'international city'.

But I disagree with you Briann that our discussion here has anything to do with left wing self-hating Jews.

Well, there are some Jews on the right and left who do not trust Christians or other gentiles especially when they show support for Israel.  The distrust is justified by years of terrible incidents that had taken place.  I understand the guilty until proven innocent mentality.  However, I think with some of the right wing Jews, they have more distrust for gentiles who support Israel compared to arab muslim nazis. I think that is a terrible thing because there are gentiles who genuinely support Israel and we should thank them for their support.  I understand vigilance if it is needed given the experiences in the past, but better to embrace the support than to say, "No Thank you," as Feiglin did.  And what does he have up his sleeve to save Jerusalem...so far it is compromising his principles and joining Likud.  What did Chaim so in his last askJTF opening?  We disagree with compromising our principles even if it makes us unpopular.  Feiglin as well as many right wing politicians have broken that rule.  They cannot be relied on to truly help.

Feiglin isn't a bad guy..don't get me wrong.  I just disagree with his approach on this matter specifically.

[Dr. Dan]

I think the irony in this is that they are attacking not the Christians that are anti-Semitic but the ones who aren't, as if they don't fit what a Christian should be somehow in their eyes and want to some how correct them and say 'no, you're an anti-Semite, stop lying to yourself and to us'. So then the Christian either says 'fine you have this attitude I WILL be then' or they have patience and try not to let such behavior drive them away or over the edge. The second choice is obviously the better one.

Rubystars, I agree with you on this.  On the one hand I can understand vigilance against Christians by many right wing Jews because of the past.  I accept it.  On the other hand, it's not smart, in my opinion to turn away the support.  Of course, when accepting support, a vigilant Jew should add his disclaimer and be like, "listen, this is how it is and how it's going to be.  If you don't agree and you have other intentions, I'm sorry, this isn't going to work."

[jbeige]

jbeige, it's hilarious you call it paranoia.    Did you not pay attention to 60 plus years of history when the Vatican, the Pope, his envoys, his cardinals, and all the people who represent his church constantly insisted that Jerusalem must be made an international city?    After the 6 day war, you didn't pay attention to the cables that were sent saying Israel must leave there?

Please do not call me paranoid because you are ignorant of history.

You know what is ignorant for anyone to think one group of people OWN the holy land, the holy land has roots in many religions including the Christian religion, Israel and the Jewish people are the Keepers as they should be, they run the show.
I will not argue with you but I would like to know how the Catholics are going to take over the holy land???
You are very intelligent tell us how.  Thank you.