One Day in the Life of a Jew in France

[Secularbeliever]

The pillar of the French nation is not the tragic temporary episode of the Vichy regime, it is the French Revolution, which made Jews free and equal citizens. <<

With all due respect, is the French Revolution something to be proud of?  Out of control people, murdering at random until the leader himself of the Revolution was murdered.  The reign of terror etc.  At least we got a good book out of it, Tale of Two Cities.

[Yaakov Mendel]

The pillar of the French nation is not the tragic temporary episode of the Vichy regime, it is the French Revolution, which made Jews free and equal citizens. <<

With all due respect, is the French Revolution something to be proud of?  Out of control people, murdering at random until the leader himself of the Revolution was murdered.  The reign of terror etc.  At least we got a good book out of it, Tale of Two Cities.

There was a period of anarchy and chaos and, true, some insane killing was perpetrated during that time.
But I find the principles and the society put in place by this revolution respectable and, in any case, much better than the previous organization of society. As for Jews living in France, the French Revolution undeniably improved their condition a lot.

[Dr. Dan]

I have a tendency to think that France was better when Napolean was running things.

[syyuge]

If Napolean had not fought against British and Russians, the history of the world would have been different.

[Yaakov Mendel]

I have a tendency to think that France was better when Napolean was running things.

Napoleon restored order within France and modernized the country. But he betrayed the principles of 1789, ruled the country in a despotic way and waged imperialist wars against other European countries. That is why I have a negative perception of him.
As far as French Jews are concerned, they were not persecuted or discriminated against under Napoleon’s rule, but they were maintained under tight political control (as the rest of society) and they had to vow alliegeance. In return, they had substantial religious freedom and equal legal status with the other French citizens.

[Dr. Dan]

If Napolean had not fought against British and Russians, the history of the world would have been different.

that's the flaw of every nation which wants to create a Tower of Babel and a one world mentality.

The only reason why I preferred Napoloean in France's history is because Jews were not persecuted as much.  Then again, that isn't always a good thing.. Jews shouldn't live in the Galut.

[Dr. Dan]

Napoleon restored order within France and modernized the country. But he betrayed the principles of 1789, ruled the country in a despotic way and waged imperialist wars against other European countries. That is why I have a negative perception of him.
As far as French Jews are concerned, they were not persecuted or discriminated against under Napoleon’s rule, but they were maintained under tight political control (as the rest of society) and they had to vow alliegeance. In return, they had substantial religious freedom and equal legal status with the other French citizens.

It's a double edged sword, however, when Jews can live comfortably in the Galut.  By living comfortably, they eventually assimilate and become less Jewish.  By being persecuted, they either become self hating cowards or simply leave that country and hopefully to Israel which should be the ultimate goal of every Jew.

[Spiraling Leopard]

Well I don't want to sound like the one who defends the French all the time but I'd like to add that, besides fine cuisine, France has also produced many of the brightest mathematicians and scientists of the last two centuries - a number of them being French Jews 

I thought they only ever only invented perfume.

[Yaakov Mendel]

It's a double edged sword, however, when Jews can live comfortably in the Galut.  By living comfortably, they eventually assimilate and become less Jewish.  By being persecuted, they either become self hating cowards or simply leave that country and hopefully to Israel which should be the ultimate goal of every Jew.

I agree. The fact is that a majority of French Jews are very assimilated (the same is true, I think, of American Jews).

[Yaakov Mendel]

I thought they only ever only invented perfume.

Well, we all have gaps in our knowledge, don't we ?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The pillar of the French nation is not the tragic temporary episode of the Vichy regime, it is the French Revolution, which made Jews free and equal citizens. <<

With all due respect, is the French Revolution something to be proud of?  Out of control people, murdering at random until the leader himself of the Revolution was murdered.  The reign of terror etc.  At least we got a good book out of it, Tale of Two Cities.

Likewise, the emancipation of the French Jews did not magically erase french antisemitism (on the contrary, it probably contributed to intensifying it - as an exapmle the Dreyfus affair was a major boon to the zionist movement convincing many Jews that mixing in with host gentiles was an impossibility due to their inherent racism), but it did contribute to a massive wave of assimilation and loss of Jewish tradition, culture, and religion.  I think viewing it through the prism of "rights" and "liberties" misses the point in a major way.

[maelgwyn]

P.Mendes-France, once said that in a national crisis anti-semitism & anglo phobia rear their heads!

[maelgwyn]

MORD, We dont have to look to far from home, as regard to anti-esemitsm 1910 and the riots in South Wales where Jews were beaten up by mobs!  France was probably the least anti-semitic country in Europe at that time! ZY GAZUNT!

[Yirmayahu]

Frankly, I've never liked the French. I've known plenty of them and they ALL hated the US and the ALL talked about how much better it was living in France. I understand what is being said about it not being the French people's fault regarding the attacks, but they are tolerating these crimes and it doesn't seem that they are all too eager to bring the criminals to justice. But a boycott of France and French products is a valid idea.

Let's say that in a mall there is a store that is promoting illegal activity; a head shop is a good example. You can protest the head shop but you won't get far because the mall will kick you out for one thing. Second, the head shop brings in money to the mall so they are not eager to remove a store that is paying rent and such. The mall will come to the conclusion that the money brought in by the head shop is more than the money they would lose by a few people that will not come to head shop anymore. Now replace money with fear in the case of France. They've stupidly let in all of those sand heads and they're afraid of an insurrection if they crack down on the simian population. So they tolerate the violence of millions of savages visited upon a much lesser population of Jews. The only way for the French to take action is if it hits them in the pocketbook, and that means boycotting France and French products. Sort of like in boot camp when some idiot thinks that he can outsmart the drill sergeant. The other pleebs don't want to be informers so the sergeant takes the whole platoon on a twenty mile hike so that they learn where to place their unity and devotion; not in the rabble-rouser but in the correct authority. France needs to get a set of gotts like they once had and expel the Islamic scum. It will give them more respect around the world and offer protection of their own people as well as innocents that live there. I truly believe that if one of the bigger European nations, like France or Germany do this then all of Europe will follow suit. It is a smoldering fire that needs to fully alight and if the boycott of France is what starts that fire then let's go at it. Sure, the French people might suffer for a short while as they deport the Islamic scum, but in the long run it will help to restore them and revive them into a good and solid nation once more. Freedom has a price!

[Lisa]

Just to add to Yirmayahu's post, don't forget poor Ilan Halimi, who was kidnapped, tortured, and murdered by Muslim savages in France.  True it wasn't done by native French people.  And I'm not saying all French are bad.  But they, like the other European countries like having these moosies around so they can do their anti-semitic dirty work for them. 

Yaakov, do you know what kind of punishment the people who tortured and murdered Ilan Halimi were sentenced to? 

On another more superficial note, I remember reading an article about by this American woman who had lived in France for several years in the NY Times.  In the article, she marveled at how much the French government "helped out" women after giving birth.  To get a bit more specific, she wrote about how she got this vaginal tightening treatment after the birth of her child for "free." 

Now is that ridiculous or what? 

[JTFenthusiast2]

Yaacov, you know I love you as a fellow Jew in the struggle, but I have to disagree. The French have a huge amount of Jewish blood, pain, and suffering on their hands. 

[Yaakov Mendel]

Just to add to Yirmayahu's post, don't forget poor Ilan Halimi, who was kidnapped, tortured, and murdered by Muslim savages in France.  True it wasn't done by native French people.  And I'm not saying all French are bad.  But they, like the other European countries like having these moosies around so they can do their anti-semitic dirty work for them.  

With all due respect, I think there is paranoia in believing that a majority of French people rejoice in watching non-native thugs bully French Jews - the same Arab roaches also bully a lot of native non-Jews by the way. I am by no means saying this as a personal attack on you, I know a lot of American Jews think like you. A number of French may be cowards but they are not Jew-haters. They do not all love the Jews but they don't hate them either and they don't have the malicious intentions you think they have towards the Jews. The French have individualist, universalist and rationalist values, so there are aspects of Judaism that seem strange to them, but they have an open and tolerant society, and their institutions guarantee freedom and security for French Jews.
The two big problems are : 1) the immigration policies and the prevailing leftist, "anti-racist" ideology; 2) the anti-Israel policies pursued by French governments and the anti-Israel propaganda in the leftist media. These two problems are not specifically French, you find them in all Western countries, including the US.

Yaakov, do you know what kind of punishment the people who tortured and murdered Ilan Halimi were sentenced to?  

The gang's leader got life sentence. Personally, I think he deserves a death sentence but there is no death penalty in France. So what he got is the worst you can get in a French court.
The people who helped him got between 10 and 15 years.

On another more superficial note, I remember reading an article about by this American woman who had lived in France for several years in the NY Times.  In the article, she marveled at how much the French government "helped out" women after giving birth.  To get a bit more specific, she wrote about how she got this vaginal tightening treatment after the birth of her child for "free."  

Now is that ridiculous or what?  

I don't know about that.

[Yaakov Mendel]

The French have a huge amount of Jewish blood, pain, and suffering on their hands.  

If you study the history of modern France (from 1789 onwards), you will see that what you are saying is not true. I am not going to repeat what I explained in a previous post in this thread about the occupation of France by the Nazis between 1940 and 1945. Apart from this tragic episode, where France was not France but a territory annexed by the Germans, the truth is that France has been one of the best Galut countries for the Jews. Jews have been free and equal citizens, they have not been discriminated against nor persecuted. France is nowhere near Poland or Russia. There never were pogroms under the French Republic. Jews were never barred from certain positions and trades under the French Republic. Jews could always practice the Jewish faith freely under the French Republic. Of course, there have always been French antisemites. They were the same ones who hated the French Republic and wanted to restore monarchy or were attracted to fascism in the 1930s. But they have always been a small fraction of the French population. Which Western nation NEVER had any Jew-haters ? If you look at the global picture, you will see that, indeed, on the whole, Jews have been very well treated in France since 1789, especially in comparison with other countries.
 

[maelgwyn]

NAP was a great man !

[Dr. Dan]

If you study the history of modern France (from 1789 onwards), you will see that what you are saying is not true. I am not going to repeat what I explained in a previous post in this thread about the occupation of France by the Nazis between 1940 and 1945. Apart from this tragic episode, where France was not France but a territory annexed by the Germans, the truth is that France has been one of the best Galut countries for the Jews. Jews have been free and equal citizens, they have not been discriminated against nor persecuted. France is nowhere near Poland or Russia. There never were pogroms under the French Republic. Jews were never barred from certain positions and trades under the French Republic. Jews could always practice the Jewish faith freely under the French Republic. Of course, there have always been French antisemites. They were the same ones who hated the French Republic and wanted to restore monarchy or were attracted to fascism in the 1930s. But they have always been a small fraction of the French population. Which Western nation NEVER had any Jew-haters ? If you look at the global picture, you will see that, indeed, on the whole, Jews have been very well treated in France since 1789, especially in comparison with other countries.
 

And this is good because instead of physical pogroms there were spiritual pogroms to Jews? I'm sorry to say, America is no better in the same regard.

[Yaakov Mendel]

And this is good because instead of physical pogroms there were spiritual pogroms to Jews? I'm sorry to say, America is no better in the same regard.

I don't know if I would speak of spiritual pogroms. True, Jewish children who go to public schools are taught a number of un-Jewish principles. In particular, the French culture is wary about religions in general, including Judaism. Some Jewish concepts such as the chosen people, or collective responsibility, for example, are difficult to understand by the French because they are taught individualism and universalism.
But you can send your children to private Jewish schools if you want. You are not forced to send your children to the public educational system.
The only way to live a truly Jewish life is to go to Israel. That said, in Israel too, there are many "spiritual pogroms". A majority of Israelis don't know much about Torah Judaism and the non-religious schools in Israel teach Israeli children skepticism about Judaism. 

[Zelhar]

I don't think french people are individualist and universalist. If they were individualist they wouldn't chose to live in a socialist centralistic and paternalistic state with high tax rate and heavy government intervention in the economy.

As for universalist, i think they may be, as long as the universe speaks french, cooks the french way, and f3s the french way.@”

[Yaakov Mendel]

I don't think french people are individualist and universalist. If they were individualist they wouldn't chose to live in a socialist centralistic and paternalistic state with high tax rate and heavy government intervention in the economy.

As for universalist, i think they may be, as long as the universe speaks french, cooks the french way, and f3s the french way.@”

Yes, you have good points. I was referring to philosophical principles. I agree that reality is quite different. In effect, France has been declining for a long time and, in many respects, it is now only a pale reflection of a nation that used to be more brilliant. The French are depressed and, as such, depressing. Also, one of the things I don't like about them is their tendency to be hypocrites, so no wonder that there are gaps between what they preach and what they do.
There used to be quite a lot socialism and government intervention. The motto of the French Republic is : Liberty - Equality - Fraternity. The first priority is liberty, but equality comes second, hence the importance attached to redistribution of wealth. However, this is much less true today. Government intervention has been substantially reduced over the last twenty years. Taxes are not so high compared to other Western countries. They look very high because the figures include social security contributions. If you add social security contributions to taxes, you will see that US figures are not much lower.

[Dr. Dan]

I don't know if I would speak of spiritual pogroms. True, Jewish children who go to public schools are taught a number of un-Jewish principles. In particular, the French culture is wary about religions in general, including Judaism. Some Jewish concepts such as the chosen people, or collective responsibility, for example, are difficult to understand by the French because they are taught individualism and universalism.
But you can send your children to private Jewish schools if you want. You are not forced to send your children to the public educational system.
The only way to live a truly Jewish life is to go to Israel. That said, in Israel too, there are many "spiritual pogroms". A majority of Israelis don't know much about Torah Judaism and the non-religious schools in Israel teach Israeli children skepticism about Judaism. 

However, by having a comfortable life in the Galut, Jews are less likely to do what's right and make Aliya to Israel which is what all Jews, including me, should do.