2 laws that I am having trouble with(Jewish law)

[The proud Jew]

the 2 laws I dont think i can uphold is kol isha and shmer neiddah. Other than that I follow everything. I feel like why should a womens voice bother me since I am allready accostumed to hear it? And on shomer neiddah, My question is if i shake a womens hand for one second thats going to lead to a sexual relationship? Before i was on my path towards a fullfilling jewish life, shaking womens hands for formal reasons never led to anything.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

the 2 laws I dont think i can uphold is kol isha and shmer neiddah. Other than that I follow everything. I feel like why should a womens voice bother me since I am allready accostumed to hear it? And on shomer neiddah, My question is if i shake a womens hand for one second thats going to lead to a sexual relationship? Before i was on my path towards a fullfilling jewish life, shaking womens hands for formal reasons never led to anything.

 Kol Isha is hearing women sing. Their are differences of opinion in this is this applies to hearing a song but not knowing or seeing the women or only if you see the women singing. Either way it affects the mentality of a man and can and does lead to promiscuous thoughts and actions. Maybe you wont, maybe not now, but many times having women sing is public for example leads to violations. Also music affects the soul, and you or anyone listening to any music has an affect on yourself.
 Again their are lenient views in regards to this. For shaking a women's hand if she extends it first and for business purposes. BUT today you will state why can't you shake a women's hand, obviously it wont lead to anything. Then the standard will be well why not just touch, were "just friends". After that less and less until you know what often happens. And this happens many times in society and already apparent. First it starts with touching, then to hugging, kissing and on and on. And this isn't only with single people but with married women going with other men as well. Big things almost always start "small".

[The proud Jew]

arnt thoughts and actions two entirely different things? I thought in judiasm that we have to overcome our yetzer hara by testing ourselfs.If we are going to run away from things that prevent us from presenting a challenge to our neshama isnt that defeating hashems purpose on why we are sent here on earth?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

arnt thoughts and actions two entirely different things? I thought in judiasm that we have to overcome our yetzer hara by testing ourselfs.If we are going to run away from things that prevent us from presenting a challenge to our neshama isnt that defeating hashems purpose on why we are sent here on earth?

 Their are plenty of tests in life, no need to add anymore. In fact its forbidden to deliberately put oneself in situations that are problematic and are "tests".
 And about thoughts and actions- actions lead to thoughts, thoughts also lead to actions.

[muman613]

Yes, it is best to keep as much as you can now so that later in life you are not faced with these issues. It may sound strange to people living in todays society but these rules do help prevent men and women from engaging in forbidden relations. In my youth I did not keep them and I know that by not respecting the male/female relationship will lead to many immodest situations. When you have a wife she may be jealous if you spend to much time listening to other women, especially if you touch them...

[The proud Jew]

I thought the only prohibitions are no incest, no homosexuality, not being an inbred also known as keeping family purity. Seems like there is much more.

[The proud Jew]

also why is it that in sephardic communnities before the state of israel that women were singing as a cultural norm?

[muman613]

I thought the only prohibitions are no incest, no homosexuality, not being an inbred also known as keeping family purity. Seems like there is much more.

what do you mean 'the only prohibitions'? There are 365 Negative (Thou Shall Not) commandments in the Torah and 248 Positive commandments...

http://www.torah.org/learning/halacha-overview/chapter27.html

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The Torah forbids sexual relations between a man and his 1) mother1 or stepmother2; 2) aunt3 or wife of father's brother (on the father's side)4; 3) sister, half-sister,5 or sister-in-law6; 4) daughter, daughter-in-law,7 or granddaughter8; 5) wife's mother, grandmother, daughter, or granddaughter.9,a The relatives by marriage are forbidden even if the marriage is no longer in effect, except in the cases of a brother's wife if the brother died childless, and a wife's sister after the wife's death. The prohibitions apply to both the man and the woman.b

The sages extended these prohibitions to include a man's 6) grandmother, great-grandmother or step-grandmother; 7) father's or mother's half-brother's wife; 8) great-granddaughter, and son's, daughter's or grandson's daughter-in-law; 9) wife's great-grandmother or great-granddaughter; and the relatives (mother, grandmother, daughter, granddaughter, sister) of a woman with whom the man has had sexual relations. Some of these apply also to further generations.c

The Torah also forbids sexual relations 10) with a woman married to another man10; 11) with a woman who has menstruated, given birth or miscarried, until after she has immersed herself;11,d; 12) between two men, with additional prohibitions in the case of one's father or father's brother12; 13) between a man or woman and an animal.13 All of these Torah prohibitions are called arayos ("nakednesses").
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[The proud Jew]

Muman I meant to say previous to my limited knowladge thats all i thought was forbidden.

[Dr. Dan]

Proud Jew

In my opinion it depends how wide of a fence you need to protect yourself.

Since i got married, i try to limit any physical contact with non relative women...more so out of respect for my wife...and to keep my thoughts safe.

if i were you, keep it simple.  Shomer negiya while dating and once married, practice niddah as we'll.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Proud Jew

In my opinion it depends how wide of a fence you need to protect yourself.

Since i got married, i try to limit any physical contact with non relative women...more so out of respect for my wife...and to keep my thoughts safe.

if i were you, keep it simple.  Shomer negiya while dating and once married, practice niddah as we'll.

Dr. Dan, I'm interested in your comment.  Can you please translate this part,  "Shomer negiya while dating and once married, practice niddah as well."

[muman613]

Dr. Dan, I'm interested in your comment.  Can you please translate this part,  "Shomer negiya while dating and once married, practice niddah as well."

That is easy... Shomer Negiya means not to physically touch a woman {prohibited till we are married}... Niddah are the laws of marital purity {not having relations during the womans impure time}...

http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/699739/jewish/The-Touch-of-Two-Worlds.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1051760/jewish/May-I-Shake-the-Ladys-Hand.htm

The prohibition of touching (in Hebrew negiah) goes back to the Book of Leviticus (18:6 and 18:19) and was developed further in the Talmud. A person who observes this prohibition is often called a shomer negiаh. It applied not only to close contact such as hugging and kissing, but also to shaking hands or patting on the back. The practice is generally followed by traditionally observant Jews, both men and women, including Hassidic Jews, and those who are referred to as Haredim. It is also observed within the Modern Orthodox community depending on how traditional the person is.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/sex.htm
Niddah:  The Laws of Separation

One of the most mysterious areas of Jewish sexual practices is the law of niddah, separation of husband and wife during the woman's menstrual period.  These laws are also known as taharat ha-mishpachah, family purity.  Few people outside of the Orthodox community are even aware that these laws exist, which is unfortunate, because these laws provide many undeniable benefits.  The laws of niddah are not deliberately kept secret; they are simply unknown because most non-Orthodox Jews do not continue their religious education beyond bar mitzvah, and these laws address subjects that are not really suitable for discussion with children under the age of 13.

According to the Torah, a man is forbidden from having sexual intercourse with a niddah, that is, a menstruating woman.  The law of niddah is the only law of ritual purity that continues to be observed today.  At one time, a large portion of Jewish law revolved around questions of ritual purity and impurity.  The other laws mainly had significance in the context of the Temple, and are not applicable today.
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[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

the 2 laws I dont think i can uphold is kol isha and shmer neiddah. Other than that I follow everything. I feel like why should a womens voice bother me since I am allready accostumed to hear it? And on shomer neiddah, My question is if i shake a womens hand for one second thats going to lead to a sexual relationship? Before i was on my path towards a fullfilling jewish life, shaking womens hands for formal reasons never led to anything.

I can certainly relate to where you're coming from on the handshaking, there was never anything even slightly sexual about that and I was accustomed to that.  Actually I kind of did not like shaking hands with women, its kind of a manly thing so I wonder why women shake hands.  In any case you may be surprised to learn (as I was), that shomer negiah only has to do with touching that is done in a provocative or sexually forward manner that leads to other activities.   The proof?  One of the talmudic sages was known for carrying the bride on his shoulders during the chasunah to make her happy and spread cheer at the weddings.  Obviously that is not a sexual touching.  Similarly, I still "touch" my aunts that I grew up hugging a kissing in greetings customarily since that is not sexual at all.   

This is not well known, and I've raised quite a few eyebrows bringing up this talmud rabbi and his carrying the bride on his shoulders!

As to kol isha, keep in mind that recorded music does not count for that so you can listen to songs, the radio etc when its not a woman singing in person.  That said I have been to many tables where the women join the singing in shabbat zimeros.  Especially the German Jews who got a leniency from the orthodox ravs in germany to permit this, but I have seen that many modern orthodox and national religious in israel rely on this leniency too. 

Honestly if you are only having difficulty with these and you started doing everything else, that is fantastic.  You're doing great and these concerns are really small potatoes, nothing to worry about.  Yasher Koach!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

arnt thoughts and actions two entirely different things? I thought in judiasm that we have to overcome our yetzer hara by testing ourselfs.If we are going to run away from things that prevent us from presenting a challenge to our neshama isnt that defeating hashems purpose on why we are sent here on earth?

But we are not allowed to purposely tempt ourselves to sin!  If something is truly a temptation, then there is a problem and that's what the prohibition is for.  But for me personally hearing singing is not something that tempts me and neither is a handshake (or hugging a relative).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

also why is it that in sephardic communnities before the state of israel that women were singing as a cultural norm?

Also true, forgot about this.  This was true of many sephardic communities but the leadership in the land of israel was more stringent and there was a drive to be "as frum" as the haredim (ashkenazi), the religious sephardim especially those following rav yosef evolved their communities to a lot more stringent than they were traditionally in different locations.  Much of the orthodox world today is more stringent than it used to be.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

KWRBT, is it always considered a sin in Judaism to listen to female artists, or to shake hands with or (appropriately) hug a female nonrelative, so long as you're not married and are not thinking lustful thoughts--or does this depend on what tradition or rabbinic source you follow?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT, is it always considered a sin in Judaism to listen to female artists, or to shake hands with or (appropriately) hug a female nonrelative, so long as you're not married and are not thinking lustful thoughts--or does this depend on what tradition or rabbinic source you follow?

Well as I tried to convey, there are specifics involved which make a lot of it permitted.  Any recorded music is permitted according to many opinions.  For instance one of my rabbis understands the halacha permits recorded and he is not "giving a leniency," he simply thinks that is excluded from the prohibition.   The greatest american posek Rabbi Moshe Feinstein permitted shaking hands with women in the business setting if I'm not mistaken.   

I think all rabbis would prohibit any kind of touching a nonrelative that can possibly lead to anything no matter what thoughts one has.  For instance everyone knows that holding hands leads somewhere and a person gets pleasure from holding hands w a girl. Similarly hugging.

 But there are many rabbis who are overly strict and would prohibit the type of thing I do which is hug and kiss an aunt hello and goodbye (that I have always done so since I was a child).  In fact I knew a rabbi when I first became religious who said that's forbidden.  But he and others like him probably don't even know the origin of shomer negiah or the Talmudic reference I mentioned, and some who do know it ignore it because this matter has become sort of a "cultural norm" in orthodox society more than just what the law is. But in reality its not just any touching that's prohibited, its touching that arouses, gives some kind of pleasure, or could lead to other interactions of sexual nature.   Hence why a handshake IMO should be allowed lechathila (from the outset), but most allow it only because it must be done in a business setting or only if the woman extends her hand first (for the reason that you are forbidden to embarrass her by refusing).   So its not really about intentions or self control, or thoughts, its about the type of touching period.  If there's even a question of self control its already touching that shouldn't be done and is prohibited.

But it is true that some are more strict about these two things and some less strict.  But no one can argue on the fact that the talmud notes a sage who carried brides on his shoulders at the party, so I feel there is some objective truth on my side and some are just strict for the sake of being strict and/or because of cultural norms.

[muman613]

We have not even started to discuss the laws of Yichud which prohibit a man and a woman from being behind closed doors together. It is observing this mitzvah which prevents the actual deed from occurring. As I have said before when I was married we had a lot of problems about my ex-wife being jealous of the women who I worked with and were friends with. I did have several good women friends in my 20s and I let them all go in my 30s and haven't spoken to them in 20 years. If only I had kept these laws then my ex would have had absolutely no reason to be jealous...


http://www.jewishmag.com/101mag/yechud/yechud.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3246/jewish/Why-Is-Torah-Law-So-Restrictive-of-Contact-Between-the-Genders.htm

Question:

I understand that Torah law forbids all physical contact between a man and a woman -- or even for them to be alone in a room together -- unless they are first-degree relatives or married to each other. This applies to any man and any woman, regardless of their ages or whether or not  they are sexually attracted to each other. And then there are all those rules about "modest" dress. Isn't that carrying it a bit far? Are we really such animals?

Answer:

When a man and woman are together in a room, and the door closes, that is a sexual event. Not because of what is going to happen, but what has already happened. It may not be something to make novels of, but it is a sexual occurrence, because male and female is what sexuality used to be all about.

It is true that in our world today, in the "free world" certainly, people have, on the whole, stopped thinking in these terms. What happened was that we started putting up all these defenses, getting steeled, inured, against the constant exposure and stimulation of men and women sharing all sorts of activities -- co-educational school, camps, gyms -- is that we started blocking out groups of people. We can't be as naturally sexual as G-d created us to be. When a man says, "I have a woman friend, but we're just friends, nothing more, I'm not attracted to her in any sexual way, she's not my type," you've got to ask yourself what is really going on here. Is this a disciplined person? Or is this a person who has died a little bit?

What does he mean "she's not my type?" When did all this typing come into existence? It's all artificial. It's not true to human sexuality. And it really isn't even true in this particular context because given a slight change of circumstance, you could very easily be attracted. After all, you are a male, she's a female. How many times does a relationship begin that is casual, neighborly, and then suddenly becomes intimate? The great awakening of this boy and girl who are running around, doing all sorts of things, sharing all sorts of activities, and lo and behold, they realize -- what drama, what drama -- that they are attracted to each other. These are grown-ups, intelligent human beings, and it caught them by surprise. It's kind of silly.

So closing a door should be recognized as a sexual event. And you need to ask yourself: Are you prepared for this? Is it permissible? Is it proper? If not, leave the door open. Should men and women shake hands? Should it be seen as an intimate gesture? Should any physical contact that is friendly be considered intimate? Hopefully, it should.

These laws are not guarantees against sin. They have never completely prevented it. There are people who dress very modestly. They cover everything. They sin. It's a little more cumbersome but they manage. All these laws are not just there to lessen the possibility of someone doing something wrong. They also preserve sexuality -- because human sexuality is what G-d wants. He gave us these laws to preserve it, to enhance it -- and makes sure it's focused to the right places and circumstances -- not to stifle it.
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http://www.sichosinenglish.org/books/the-laws-of-yichud/08.htm

Separate Rooms

118. A man and woman may not share an apartment and its facilities even if they sleep in separate rooms,[221] and even if they both lock their rooms at night.[222]
119. A question arises concerning the case of a man and woman who find themselves in a house alone, as to whether Yichud would be permitted if they were to lock their rooms. Some Poskim say that if the woman locked her room, then Yichud would be permitted.[223] Other Poskim disagree.[224] In practice one should be stringent.[225]

120. The prohibition of Yichud exists even if a man and woman are in separate rooms in the same house. As long as there is a door through which a person may pass from one room to the other, there is Yichud. This is true even if the woman is on the top floor of the house and the man in the basement — as long as the two have free access to each other, there is Yichud.[226]

121. A man may sleep in one room of a house and a woman in another, as long as there are other people in the house who serve to prevent Yichud.[227]

122. Let us look at a case where there are two rooms in a house, with men in one room and women in another, and it would be highly unusual for a man to enter the women's room or vice versa. If a man were then to come into the women's room or a woman into the men's room in such a way that they would be in Yichud — e.g. if the men were prutzim, or if one man were secluded with two women — then this would constitute Yichud. The reason is that there would be no shomrim in the room, in addition to the fact that the people in the Yichud situation would not be afraid that people might enter from the other room.[228]

123. If these rooms were to consist of an inner and outer room (i.e., the entrance to one room is through the other), and the men would stay in one room and the women in the other, then there is a dispute among the Poskim as to whether this case would constitute Yichud, and in practice one should be stringent.[229] If the women locked the room from their side, some Poskim are lenient and others are stringent.[230]

124. If both the inner and outer room have a separate entrance, there is no Yichud.[231] However, a window or a balcony from which one can jump to the ground is not considered a separate entrance if nobody usually exits in such a way.[232]

125. A woman is permitted to be in an outer room and a man in an inner room (and vice versa) if the outer room has a Pesach Posuach Lirshus Horabim, an entrance to a public thoroughfare.[233]

126. There is no prohibition against men and women staying in different rooms in a hotel.[234] This is true even if they are on the upper floors of the hotel, since all the hallways and corridors are public domains.[235]

Separate Apartments

127. Two apartments in one house which have separate entrances, but which are connected by a closed but unlocked door, are considered like one apartment. Thus, if a man is in one apartment and a woman in the other, they are in Yichud.[236]
128. If the connecting door is locked even from one side, whether from the side of the man or of the woman, they are considered as two separate apartments and there is no Yichud even if each has the key to the door.[237]

129. Two self-contained apartments in one house, if they share a common hallway and have a common closed entrance, pose a serious problem of Yichud. If a man is in one apartment and a woman in the other, then this may constitute Yichud even if the door to their respective apartments is locked.[238]

130. Therefore, two-family homes comprised of two apartments that share a common front entrance which is usually locked may pose a serious question of Yichud. This is true even if the respective apartments are locked.[239] If a case of Yichud arises, the front entrance should be left open, creating a Pesach Posuach to the hall area, and the private residence should be locked.[240]

131. Let us discuss the case of two separate apartments, one contained within the other. If a person can only exit one apartment by passing through the other, this would create a Yichud situation. It would be Yichud for one man to be in one apartment and a woman in the other even if the connecting door were locked.[241]

[muman613]

This link discusses the famous sage of recent memory Rabbi Moshe Feinstein concerning the laws of yichud...

http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5762/emor.html

HILCHOS YICHUD: RULINGS OF HARAV M. FEINSTEIN

The laws of yichud are complex and detailed and the opinions of the poskim are diverse and contradictory. This discussion will focus exclusively on the rulings of Harav Moshe Feinstein, one of the greatest halachic authorities of our generation. Dissenting opinions appear in the footnotes. A final ruling will depend on the specific circumstances of each situation and the individual rav's decision according to the facts presented to him.

WITH WHOM IS YICHUD FORBIDDEN?

Unless they are married, a man may not be alone with any woman, and a woman may not be alone with any man, with the following exceptions:

1. His mother and grandmother; her father and grandfather.
2. His daughter and granddaughter; her son and grandson.
3. His sister; her brother. Brother and sister may not live together in the same house for a period of time which exceeds the normal stay of a house guest. They should also not be left together unchaperoned when their parents are away for an extended period of time(1).
4. His father's sister and his mother's sister(2). They may not live together in the same house for a period of time which exceeds the normal stay of a house guest.
5. His adopted daughter; her adopted son. This is permitted only as long as both adoptive parents are alive and married to each other(3).
(Example: An adoptive father may not be secluded with his adopted daughter after his wife passes away, or if he divorces his wife.)

Yichud with a daughter-in-law or a mother-in law is strictly forbidden(4).

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[muman613]

Concerning what a Jew does with his wife.... We should all consider the very first Mitzvah of the Torah, "Be fruitful and multiply"....

If only more married Jewish women of today wanted to have more children than just two.... I have a lot of respect for some Jewish women I have known {wives of my Rabbis and friends} who have many children...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also to add- people mentioned about touching (hand shaking), but about Nidda it was very brief. Just to let Jews know that the laws of Niddah are much stricter then even touching. And Nidda is with one's own wife. The prohibition is great and soo is the punishment which is Karet (cutting off of the soul). Soo be much more careful in this regard, get a Rav and once married know and observe all the laws of Niddah.

[Dr. Dan]

Dr. Dan, I'm interested in your comment.  Can you please translate this part,  "Shomer negiya while dating and once married, practice niddah as well."

Shomer negiya while dating - no touching, holding hands, kissing etc.  Imagine liking a girl and not being able to do those things.  And I always say for someone to do the best he and she can.

Niddah means no sex during menstruatian and 7 clean days thereafter.  Some husbands and wives ent even touch each other during this time.  Imagine the wife you are in love with and so attracted to her and can't do anything for close to 2 weeks.  After het mikva night it will be hot stuff like your first time with each other

[The proud Jew]

I dont think I can follow those laws, yichud and shomer negia and kol isha, oh well im not a perfect jew but proud that I have a spiritual challlenge ahead of me.

[muman613]

I dont think I can follow those laws, yichud and shomer negia and kol isha, oh well im not a perfect jew but proud that I have a spiritual challlenge ahead of me.

Do not become depressed with the magnitude of the mission. Take one step at a time and slowly you will see changes. One concept to try to keep clearly in mind is that Judaism doesn't expect you to be perfect, it expects you to want to be perfect, and through constant self-evaluation you will be able to see your progress. Do not give up because you have difficulty with some of the laws. Being completely Shomer Shabbat is always a challenge and one which I occasionally have issues with. But again the purpose is to make you a better person, and through this making the entire world a better world.

All the strength to you that you should be more observant this time next year...

[The proud Jew]

I dont work on shabbos, I dont answer the phone on shabbos.  I keep all of my lights on throughout the night except for my own room, and the tv on throughout the night but on mute, so the electricity is on throughout the night, so that is my shomer shabbas. I dont turn on stove, because of the flame. I disagree with the notion that electricity is equilivant to a flame, since the literal definition of that mitzvah, is to not light a flame, no where did it say electricity.