What is a Noahite?

[Dan]

I'm really curious about it.
I've heard Chaim talk about it on past shows.

[Ehud]

A Noahide is a gentile who follows the laws given to Noah by G-d.  Since gentiles are not required to follow and are forbidden to follow some laws from the Torah, the Noahide laws are required of gentiles in order for them to be considered a "righteous gentile" and in order for them to take part in the world to come.  Most good Christians follow the Noahide laws, but there is a debate as to whether the concept of the trinity violates the prohibition on blasphemy, which demands the acceptance of the singularity of G-d.

I'm not sure if most Christians think of themselves as Noahides, but I would bet that most don't because it implies that they are somehow subservient to Judaism. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws

[kahaneloyalist]

A Noahide is a gentile who follows the laws given to Noah by G-d.  Since gentiles are not required to follow and are forbidden to follow some laws from the Torah, the Noahide laws are required of gentiles in order for them to be considered a "righteous gentile."  Most good Christians follow the Noahide laws, but there is a debate as to whether the concept of the trinity violates the prohibition on blasphemy, which demands the acceptance of the singularity of G-d. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide_Laws

This comes down to a makhloket between the Rambam and Meiri, the majority opinion is that of the Rambam, who rules that for a Goy to be Ben Noach must follow the Sheva Mitzvot Benai Noach because it was revealed by Hashem, not because it was logical to him. He cannot accept any other religion at all, as that is adding to what Hashem has revealed.

The Meiri, and this is the opinion Chaim follows, takes a lenient position that Goyim who happen to follow the Sheva Mitzvot, and have an imperfect monotheism can be considered Ben Noach.

http://www.noahide.org/

http://www.noahidenations.com/

http://www.highcouncilofbneinoah.org/Home.aspx

[Dan]

These site you guys gave me are great,
I'll do some reading on my own now to catch up, Thanks !
Do you know of any Christians that follow this ? because I have never heard of it being applied...

[Mishmaat]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

[Ehud]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

That's not entirely true.  Unitarians are Christians who believe in the oneness of G-d and they believe in following Christ's teachings rather than believing that Christ was divine himself.  They also believe themselves to be followers of the original form of Christianity.

[Allen-T]

What does this verse mean?;

Genesis 1:26-And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

This is both the King James Version and Jewish Bible I have which is called; The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic text, a new translation with the aid of previous versions and with consultation of Jewish authorities. This version is from a 1959 reprinting of a 1917 copyright.

Isn't one God indivisble in Judaism? 

[newman]

What does this verse mean?;

Genesis 1:26-And G-d said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

This is both the King James Version and Jewish Bible I have which is called; The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic text, a new translation with the aid of previous versions and with consultation of Jewish authorities. This version is from a 1959 reprinting of a 1917 copyright.

Isn't one G-d indivisble in Judaism? 

The "us" is like the royal "we". "Like us" means with free will.... not a physical likeness.

[Allen-T]

What does this verse mean?;

Genesis 1:26-And G-d said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

This is both the King James Version and Jewish Bible I have which is called; The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic text, a new translation with the aid of previous versions and with consultation of Jewish authorities. This version is from a 1959 reprinting of a 1917 copyright.

Isn't one G-d indivisble in Judaism? 

The "us" is like the royal "we". "Like us" means with free will.... not a physical likeness.

What do you mean royal "we"? Example? "Like us" means free will? How so? Yes I understand the freewill part but us is plural.   

[ftf]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

That's utter bunkum, the concept of the trinity is one of the most misreprented components of christianity, and you are here misrepresenting it again, we do not believe in three Gods, we simply believe that God has three elements to him, like a tree has roots trunk and branches, it's still one tree though isn't, surely God is more complex than a tree?

Christians who say that Jesus is not part of God are not Christians, I am quite willing to privately debate any such, if they are in anyway annoyed with me for saying this.

[Allen-T]

In fact I just googled "Royal we" and you are correct, it has a singular application in terms of, for example a king. Very interesting.   

[mord]

I have a friend who who thinks he's so important he talks in a second person.For example lets say his name is John ,when talking to a person he'll say John wants to eat.

[Allen-T]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

That's utter bunkum, the concept of the trinity is one of the most misreprented components of christianity, and you are here misrepresenting it again, we do not believe in three Gods, we simply believe that G-d has three elements to him, like a tree has roots trunk and branches, it's still one tree though isn't, surely G-d is more complex than a tree?

Christians who say that Jesus is not part of G-d are not Christians, I am quite willing to privately debate any such, if they are in anyway annoyed with me for saying this.

I put this to Chaim once and he agreed that Christians don't worship 3 Gods, but he believes we worship one God but are mistaken about the triun aspect of him.  

[ftf]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

That's utter bunkum, the concept of the trinity is one of the most misreprented components of christianity, and you are here misrepresenting it again, we do not believe in three Gods, we simply believe that G-d has three elements to him, like a tree has roots trunk and branches, it's still one tree though isn't, surely G-d is more complex than a tree?

Christians who say that Jesus is not part of G-d are not Christians, I am quite willing to privately debate any such, if they are in anyway annoyed with me for saying this.

I put this to Chaim once and he agreed that Christians don't worship 3 Gods, but he believes we worship one G-d but are mistaken about the triun aspect of him.  

Of course he thinks we're mistaken or he'd be a messianic Jew, which he isn't.

[Allen-T]

I have a friend who who thinks he's so important he talks in a second person.For example lets say his name is John ,when talking to a person he'll say John wants to eat.

I do that sometimes to be colourful, but it's just a joke. I sometimes refer to myself as the fatman, or fatboy, usually only with my wife though.  

[Allen-T]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

That's utter bunkum, the concept of the trinity is one of the most misreprented components of christianity, and you are here misrepresenting it again, we do not believe in three Gods, we simply believe that G-d has three elements to him, like a tree has roots trunk and branches, it's still one tree though isn't, surely G-d is more complex than a tree?

Christians who say that Jesus is not part of G-d are not Christians, I am quite willing to privately debate any such, if they are in anyway annoyed with me for saying this.

I put this to Chaim once and he agreed that Christians don't worship 3 Gods, but he believes we worship one G-d but are mistaken about the triun aspect of him.  

Of course he thinks we're mistaken or he'd be a messianic Jew, which he isn't.

But he doesn't call us polytheists as many Jews do.

(My post had been messed up for some reason, as had your (Allen-T's) quote of it, I cleaned up my post, and have just cleaned up the quote of it ~ftf)

[newman]

In fact I just googled "Royal we" and you are correct, it has a singular application in terms of, for example a king. Very interesting.   

Something else interesting. Man is 6000 yrs old according to bible but cavemen remains go back 100,000 or something.Since DNA discovery, They've discovered a brain growth gene that only goes back 6000 yrs. This gene is supposed to enable modern man to understand abstract concepts (like G_d ?). Maybe even free will as opposed to pure instinct.That makes modern man with free will only 6000 yrs old as per Genesis.

[Allen-T]

In fact I just googled "Royal we" and you are correct, it has a singular application in terms of, for example a king. Very interesting.   

Something else interesting. Man is 6000 yrs old according to bible but cavemen remains go back 100,000 or something.Since DNA discovery, They've discovered a brain growth gene that only goes back 6000 yrs. This gene is supposed to enable modern man to understand abstract concepts (like G_d ?). Maybe even free will as opposed to pure instinct.That makes modern man with free will only 6000 yrs old as per Genesis.

I never believed that millions of years ago caveman stuff anyway.

[newman]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

That's utter bunkum, the concept of the trinity is one of the most misreprented components of christianity, and you are here misrepresenting it again, we do not believe in three Gods, we simply believe that G-d has three elements to him, like a tree has roots trunk and branches, it's still one tree though isn't, surely G-d is more complex than a tree?

Christians who say that Jesus is not part of G-d are not Christians, I am quite willing to privately debate any such, if they are in anyway annoyed with me for saying this.

Of course he thinks we're mistaken or he'd be a messianic Jew, which he isn't.

I put this to Chaim once and he agreed that Christians don't worship 3 Gods, but he believes we worship one G-d but are mistaken about the triun aspect of him.  

But he doesn't call us polytheists as many Jews do.

You need to understand it's not just a disagreement about who the messiah is and whether he's come yet. It is rank herressy in judaism to even consider the G_d of Israel turning himself into flesh and worse yet that he would allow himself to be passed out of a human woman's nasty and be raised as a child and poop the bed etc. NO offense meant , but that's how it is.

[newman]

In fact I just googled "Royal we" and you are correct, it has a singular application in terms of, for example a king. Very interesting.   

Something else interesting. Man is 6000 yrs old according to bible but cavemen remains go back 100,000 or something.Since DNA discovery, They've discovered a brain growth gene that only goes back 6000 yrs. This gene is supposed to enable modern man to understand abstract concepts (like G_d ?). Maybe even free will as opposed to pure instinct.That makes modern man with free will only 6000 yrs old as per Genesis.

I never believed that millions of years ago caveman stuff anyway.

Evolution is absolutely compatible with the bible. A rabbi would tell you G_d made the earth in six periods or phases-- not days(24 hrs) that's a mistranslation. 6 phases could well amount to millions of years. And creating the 1st man 6000 yrs ago...that's first modern man with free will and high intellect, not merely the first humanoid,neanderthal,sub-human..... or arab

[Allen-T]

not merely the first humanoid,neanderthal,sub-human..... or arab


ummmmm-hmmmmmm

[kahaneloyalist]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

Not exactly, as I wrote before the Meiri holds that Christians, mind you this excludes those who have ever harmed the Jewish people, are Ben Noach, and this is the opinion Chaim follows in this matter.

[newman]

No. A Christian cannot be a fully observant Noahide because of the Trinity.

Not exactly, as I wrote before the Meiri holds that Christians, mind you this excludes those who have ever harmed the Jewish people, are Ben Noach, and this is the opinion Chaim follows in this matter.

Rabbinical opinion is split. Some say that christians are not fully righteous gentiles because of the G_d as flesh thing. Others believe that anybody who obeys the seven laws of noach has a share in the world to come even if their theology is a tiny bit out. I agree with the latter as I find it hard to believe that G_d would 86 a good gentile on a technicality when (if they are wrong) it's the 4th century nacean council's fault for giving them a bum steer.

[Ehud]

Hi Ftf.  I understand that Christians don't believe in three Gods, but still the separation of G-d into three distinct entities is something that I don't understand.

For instance, the shield of the trinity, is this an accurate symbolic portrayal of the concept of the Trinity?



Anyone who has had a course in logic or computer programming can see the logical impossibility of this model.

If the father, the son, and the holy spirit are ALL G-d, then how can they not be the same as each other?  That implies that there are distinct parts of G-d.  If G-d has separate parts that are distinct from each other, how can he be whole?  Isn't the whole point of the oneness of G-d that he is complete, one and whole?  If something is an apple, and another thing is an apple, and another thing is an apple, those things are all the same and they must be apples, there is no other way around it.

I've read that there are Christian scholars who have tried to logically prove the possibility of this model of trinity but have failed.  Is this model a proper way to think of the Trinity, or is it flawed?

[Allen-T]

I have heard it described this way. Take the sun in the sky. It is light, heat and energy. One sun with 3 distinct aspects. In my opinion, one of the strongest arguments for why God would manifest in the flesh is because if he didn't, we would be able to say to God on Judgement day, "but you don't understand, you are not like us". Jesus eliminates that possability. He was both fully human and fully God.