Gender separation is sexist? The news media and the Erev Rav are the sexists!

[Zelhar]

The so called "zealots" are mostly parasitic leftist anti-zionist charedim. I don't agree with what they are trying to do and I don't see why should we try to defend them considering they do nothing to defend Eretz Israel.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

i disagree, the ultra religious are making women feel uncomfortable by a man she doesn't know telling her what to do. These modesty police in my opinion should mind there own business and stop their religious coercion.

I agree.  And the victims are not just seculars or religious zionists.  Other haredim are also attacked by the modesty mobsters.  They want to control everyone's life.   They don't have the authority to tell people where to sit on a bus.

[GunsAndRosesFan]

As a secular Jew, I respect the Jewish tradition and religion, but some of thr Charedim treat their women like garbagr, I have seen it with my own eyes..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As a secular Jew, I respect the Jewish tradition and religion, but some of thr Charedim treat their women like garbagr, I have seen it with my own eyes..

And some seculars treat "their women" like garbage.    A general statement like that doesn't really get us anywhere.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It is hard for me to believe that is very common. Throughout history Judaism has valued women more and treated them much better than just about all other religions.

[Nekama]

As a torah Jew, a fully agree with the concept of Tzniyut.  However, how does one define Tzniyut? We must look to our Torah sages.  I am by no means a the most learned person but some of what is being implimented seems Taliban like.  I am troubled by what is going on.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

As a torah Jew, a fully agree with the concept of Tzniyut.  However, how does one define Tzniyut? We must look to our Torah sages.  I am by no means a the most learned person but some of what is being implimented seems Taliban like.  I am troubled by what is going on.

 You are correct. I believe the underlying issue is not "Tzniyut" but this is an excuse they use. In fact those girls were and are very Tzniyut by all standards of Halacha (and had they not been, still these are girls and not like they are protesting a strip club or something like that which is truly problematic).
  And your comparison to Taliban like is also correct. Some (again let it be stressed this is a small sect of extremists) actually do wear burkas, or what you would call "Jerkas". these things are not even Halacha, in the case of Jurkas are against Halacha, yett to be more "modest" (But in actually it is not modest at all) they are covering up everything including the face. This is what happens when some people who do not know anything about Judaism come and make up their own rules in the name of Judaism. The solution (partly) is to actually know what is Halacha and what is NOT. When they come and speak in the name of Judaism the best answer is to actually show and follow what Judaism says.
 (Jewish) Women weaking burka and strong condemnation by Rabbis of this. "Israel - Strong Ban from Rabbis Against Jewish Women Wearing a Burka "
 http://www.vosizneias.com/61128/2010/07/29/israel-strong-ban-from-rabbis-against-jewish-women-wearing-a-burka

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

If being Jewish is sexist I'm the fattest, dirtiest sexist pig on earth.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also by the way these ppl attack religious Zionists who celebrate and wave Israeli flags on Yom HaatzMaot and other such occasions in Beit Shemesh.
 But also the fact that their is an uproar by the media precisely now, also is some what fishy as well as everything done by the leftists are.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

If being Jewish is sexist I'm the fattest, dirtiest sexist pig on earth.

 What are you talking about? How are you equating "Being Jewish" with being "sexist"? And why are you giving that impression?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

What are you talking about? How are you equating "Being Jewish" with being "sexist"? And why are you giving that impression?

Feminazi jihadists call Mehadrin buses "sexism"

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Feminazi jihadists call Mehadrin buses "sexism"

 Soo? "Mehadrin" buses are not necessarily "Jewish". They are not halahically needed to begin with. If their are those who want them and the buses are privately owned fine, but if those are against them doesn't make them against Judaism necessarily.

[muman613]

Here are some links which discuss the Halachas and Minhagim of Tzniut:

http://www.yoatzot.org/index.php
http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/1695175/jewish/Modesty-and-Borders.htm
http://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/1590/jewish/Tzniut-modesty-in-dress-behavior.htm
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/76/Q1/
http://www.nishma.org/Value.html

[muman613]

Soo? "Mehadrin" buses are not necessarily "Jewish". They are not halahically needed to begin with. If their are those who want them and the buses are privately owned fine, but if those are against them doesn't make them against Judaism necessarily.

I find feminists who want to break down modesty barriers to be problematic...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I find feminists who want to break down modesty barriers to be problematic...

  Soo do I, but do you find those who supposedly are fighting for "modesty" to be problematic as well especially when they engage in measures that are not even according to Halacha?

[muman613]

  Soo do I, but do you find those who supposedly are fighting for "modesty" to be problematic as well especially when they engage in measures that are not even according to Halacha?

Yes, of course.... It is a chillul Hashem to make Judaism look wrong in the eyes of the Jewish people.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As a torah Jew, a fully agree with the concept of Tzniyut.  However, how does one define Tzniyut? We must look to our Torah sages.  I am by no means a the most learned person but some of what is being implimented seems Taliban like.  I am troubled by what is going on.

I agree 100%.  Tzniyut is really important.   But there are "activists" who are trying to expand and create anew the parameters that define it, and they want to impose it on the entire society.   There was never any problem with buses mentioned by any great poskim when public transportation first came about.   That is the first clue to me that these reformist "innovators" calling themselves ultra orthodox are anything but defenders of tradition or the faith.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

בס''ד

1. If religious Jews in Israel want to have separate buses in their neighborhoods, that should be their right. The government, the news media and the secularists have no right to dictate to them how to run buses in their communities.

But religious Jews don't "run the buses."   They are customers like everyone else is.  They did not buy ownership of Egged, nor did they create their own buslines that I am aware of.   So how can they take the currently existing lines, which have their own policies everyone is used to and now, as customers, force them to change, and force all the customers to behave as they wish them to behave?    They can't!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here are some links which discuss the Halachas and Minhagim of Tzniut: 

Yea, you speak of minhag.  But certain askanim are trying to create their own minhagim which never existed before (an oxymoron).   They represent a very serious threat within the Orthodox community that desperately needs to be stopped.   

Now that the media is highlighting these thugs as an attack on the entire religious world, they are causing a knee-jerk reaction, similar to the one exhibited by Chaim, that plays directly into the media's hands.   The media and leftist elite, KNOW what will destroy the religious, orthodox community.   They know it is the enemies within (askanim) who are trying to impose modesty, stringencies, bannings, and other dictates through the use of force and mafioso tactics.  They, the media and elites, are trying to get the overall religious population to react defensively, by putting us on the defense by attacking us all, so that we will not vigilantly combat our internal problems, but instead point to antisemitism from outside forces and thereby ignore the problems within which will only fester and grow and lead to our destruction, God forbid.    That is why the media is using stories like this, but then throwing in extra rhetoric and "analysis" that condemns entire populations and all the religious Jews as well as Judaism itself.    So that we take the sides of the thugs within our midst - that is a counterproductive and self-destructive route to take, and it's what they want us to do.  But unfortunately it is one that the frum community is all too accustomed to taking because of constant barrage of attacks from the outside and the constant need to defend the religious point of view, religious life, religious individuals, religious communities.     This is truly tragic.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I find feminists who want to break down modesty barriers to be problematic...

But the barrier was never there in the first place?   Someone else is trying to install a NEW barrier, and people who don't want it are reacting negatively, as any reasonable person would expect to happen.   No one is going to like having such things imposed on them.   So how exactly are they "breaking down barriers" which never existed?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Here is a video example from a few years ago, of askanim trying to manipulate Rav Eliashiv.   It is askanim who are the ones that want to create new modesty codes and impose them on people by force.  They are not esteemed talmidei chachamim or respected leaders.  They are not even known!   Here Rav Eliashiv refutes them and tells them plainly he has no authority to issue such a code.   
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2009/05/rav-elyashiv-on-modesty.html

I post this example because I literally watched the video alongside my Talmud rabbi, when it was first circulated on the internet.    He found this video very entertaining, and he told me that this is how they try to convince great rabbis to take action that is not warranted, and that similar things happen all the time.  There are probably other videos floating around (maybe the ones about sheitles from india, lol). 

So who is it that you agree with?   Rabbi Eliashiv?  Or some 2-bit "activist" that wants to control every detail of your life?   Your choice, of course.

[muman613]

But the barrier was never there in the first place?   Someone else is trying to install a NEW barrier, and people who don't want it are reacting negatively, as any reasonable person would expect to happen.   No one is going to like having such things imposed on them.   So how exactly are they "breaking down barriers" which never existed?

When women want to dress immodestly and mingle with observant Jews. Are you suggesting there is no requirement for women to keep tzniut? Is this what the Rabbi is claiming? It doesnt take a Talmid Chocham to realize that there are laws of Tzniut, and that it is a commandment of Torah for women to be modest. When women attempt to daven alongside the men at the Kotel this is a form of feminism which is destroying tzniut. When women want to wear the clothes that men wear this is a violation of Torah. Yes, I agree you will find a variety of Rabbis who interpret these commandments with a range of opinions.... But do you think it is OK for a woman to dress immodestly and attempt to seduce a religious man?

What barriers are you suggesting never existed? There are numerous halachic opinions which indicate that modesty is a commandment for women. The Talmud is also filled with evidence that some of the sages never looked at other women {other than his wife}.

I am not justifying what these extremists did... I am just explaining why I feel that feminism is leading to destruction of Torah principles...

Here is a good discussion of tzniut...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1248044/jewish/Who-Decides-What-is-Modest.htm

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Are you suggesting there is no requirement for women to keep tzniut?

 I know you asked him and not me, but I will answer for him before he answers and others get the wrong impression of his words- 
  NO. He did not say nor imply that in any way. He is talking about the extreme measures being imposed by some.

[muman613]

I know you asked him and not me, but I will answer for him before he answers and others get the wrong impression of his words- 
  NO. He did not say nor imply that in any way. He is talking about the extreme measures being imposed by some.

Thank you.... I hoped I misunderstood that... I will say again I have not reviewed this incident... But I have a feeling that I will have to in order to speak with any understanding...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

When women want to dress immodestly and mingle with observant Jews.

WHAT?!?    This does not happen on an EGGED BUS.  Perhaps you should take a trip to Israel and actually ride on a bus to see what goes on there.   Sitting next to a man or a woman is not "mingling" and it's not immodest!

Are you suggesting there is no requirement for women to keep tzniut?

 
No, so why are you putting words in my mouth that I never said?  

I actually said THE OPPOSITE somewhere in this thread.  I replied to nekama agreeing with him that the laws of tzniut are very important.

Is this what the Rabbi is claiming? It doesnt take a Talmid Chocham to realize that there are laws of Tzniut,

So you are defending his behavior in front of Rav Eliashiv, and you think he knows better than Rav Eliashiv?  LOL.

But do you think it is OK for a woman to dress immodestly and attempt to seduce a religious man?  

This is like asking me, "do you think it's ok to eat pig?"  
What do you think, muman?  Come on, get serious here.  Please.

What barriers are you suggesting never existed?

Barriers on buses.  There aren't any.   Go to Israel and ride a few buses, then you will know like I do.   The subject in this thread has been about buses.   You replied about buses, that some woman is trying to break down barriers there.  I replied back to you that no barriers exist on buses.  Please do not create smoke and mirrors or create confusion here.    Just stick to the points being discussed.  

When you reply to a discussion about buses in particular and then state something very vague and general about feminism in general and how evil women are trying to undo traditional customs and traditional societal mores, this is a form of obfuscation.   Because your response is not about buses, it's just a general point, set up as a straw man.   I'm not disagreeing to some general speculations about feminists.   I'm disagreeing with you if you are suggesting that those trying to forcibly separate genders on buses are simply "upholding barriers" (which never existed), and those who refuse to comply are "breaking down barriers."    So, are you saying that, or aren't you?

Your reply was to Ron's statement about 'mehadrin buses,' so that implies that you think people who oppose bus segregation are breaking down barriers.   Let me know if I am correct or incorrect about what you are saying.