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muman613:

--- Quote from: Tag-MahirTzedek on April 30, 2012, 05:51:31 PM --- I think you both are agreeing. G-D is certainly great and master of all, including the precise time of each event happening. The miracle of the sea splitting etc. demonstrates G-D's control of all including time and being precise to the last second. According to some (perhaps Rambam as well), the whole universe and everything that happened or will happen (from our point) was already done at the exact point of creation. The great "intervention" if you will is time. What was, Is and Will be is all part of the creation of the world. And G-D does run this world according to His will of natural laws (aka nature). Even the miracles are all part of G-D's natural system to the world which He created and placed at the precise time He willed it.  These are hard concepts to grasp soo I hope one reads it carefully.

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Yes I have heard this discussed. It is believed that water was created from the very beginning with the 'pre-programming' to split when the Jewish people reached the edge of the Sea of Reeds {Yam Suf}.


http://www.torah.org/learning/hamaayan/5758/beshalach.html


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The midrash (commenting on verse 14:27) offers two reasons why the Red Sea split for Bnei Yisrael. One view says that it was in the merit of the bones of Yosef which traveled with Bnei Yisrael. The other view says that when Hashem created the sea, He imposed a condition that the water would split for the Jewish people.
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http://www.shemayisrael.com/yomtov/chanukah/selections63.htm

--- Quote ---Rabbi Shlomo Kluger, in his commentary on our prayers, Y'rios Shlomo, explains that Hashem frowns upon miracles that are contrary to nature, while He is pleased with those that are within nature. This is to be explained as follows: We can view a happening as a miracle, totally contrary to the set laws of nature, while in truth it is not a miracle at all, but rather within the confines of nature. We find in the M.R. Breishis 5:5 that Rabbi Yochonon derives from "Va'yoshov ha'yom l'eisono," - and the sea returned to its strength, that although Hashem gave water the nature to flow, He stipulated at the time of creation that the waters of the sea should split for the bnei Yisroel at the required time. Since this was originally set into the system of the creation of the world, it is not to be considered a miracle, albeit that it is a major departure from the norm. The same is true of almost all of the miracles that Hashem has wrought. The Nezer Hakodesh writes likewise on Shmos 12:41, the verse that relates that after 430 years the hosts of Hashem exited from Egypt, that every miracle that took place in the saga of the exile in Egypt and the exodus, was already in the workings, having been pre-programmed into the creation of the world. This actually takes this type of miracle out of the realm of miracles. It is this type of miracle that Hashem is not reluctant to do.
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muman613:

--- Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on April 30, 2012, 08:28:09 PM ---I don't buy the pre-programming thing.  Notice Rabbi Shlomo Kruger, who advocates it, correctly says that if this is the case then it is not to be considered a miracle.  I would not call this position atheism, but "theism light" since it shies away from believing in miracles.  The Torah says that the parting of the waters happened when Moses stretched his staff over the sea, which is the time that G-d intervened in nature and caused the waters to part.  A lot of G-d's miracles are also dependent on free will.  In Jeremiah it tells us that G-d can change His plans on whether to fulfill prophecies of reward or punishment based on people's behavior.  And what about the times that G-d spoke to Moses?  If it was actually G-d's voice then it would be G-d intervening at that time in history and not a pre-destined audio recording.  G-d couldn't speak to the prophets if He was currently just a bystander.  Therefore it is G-d intervening, not pre-destining, in nature that causes miracles to happen.  However, I can see how those with atheistic tendencies might buy into this one because it reduces G-d to a less active role which is the next step to atheism.

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It is not only Rabbi Kruger who says this. It comes from the sages...It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Atheism, and as you can see Rambam subscribed to this particular understanding...

As a matter of fact the Pirkie Avot {Ethics of the Fathers} a Talmudic tract, states the following:

Ten things were created at twilight of Shabbat eve. These are: the mouth of the earth [that swallowed Korach]; the mouth of [Miriam's] well; the mouth of [Balaam's] donkey; the rainbow; the manna; [Moses'] staff; the shamir; the writing, the inscription and the tablets [of the Ten Commandments]. Some say also the burial place of Moshe and the ram of our father Avraham. And some say also the spirits of destruction as well as the original tongs, for tongs are made with tongs. (Avot 5:6)


http://blog.webyeshiva.org/teachers-contributions/insights-in-pirkei-avot-the-final-moments-of-creation

What commonality unites this disparate list and why were these things formed at the very end of the six days of creation?  Many of the listed items refer to miraculous events and the previous two mishnayot in Avot catalogue miracles; thus, we may have another enumeration of divinely inspired changes in nature.  Rambam offers such an interpretation while reading the mishnah in light of his strong endorsement of the stability of the natural order.  Divine perfection entails making a world which does not require constant tinkering at later sages.  In fact, subsequent deviations from the regularity of nature were all programmed in at the time of creation.  That is the implication of G-d creating miraculous elements just before the first Sabbath.

This mishnah does not offer an exhaustive list of biblical miracles; note that the splitting of the sea does not appear.  Why focus on these specific miracles?  Rambam explains that other miracles were programmed in during earlier days of creation.  For example, the splitting of the sea was planned on the second day of creation when G-d formed the waters.  It remains unclear why certain miracles were incorporated early in the six days whereas others were left for the end of process.  That some of the listed items, such as the rainbow and Avraham’s ram, do not refer to miraculous events provides another difficulty for Rambam’s interpretation.

In Moreh Nevuchim (2:29), Rambam cites midrashic support for his interpretation.  Yalkut Shimoni (Yehoshua 21) states that G-d made a condition with the sea at the time of creation that it would split for the Jewish people at the appropriate moment.  Arguably, this conveys the idea that G-d preprogrammed all miracles into the created order.

However, Tosafot Yom Tov points out an alternative reading of the midrash.  A different midrash (Tanchuma Bereishit) says that G-d made a condition at the time of creation that the world’s survival depends upon the Jews accepting the Torah.  That second midrash refers not to miracles but to the purpose of creation. Perhaps the midrashic motif of divine conditions made during beriat olam always suggests something about the telos of creation.  If so, the midrash from Yalkut Shimoni says something abut the great significance of keriat yam suf but nothing about the nature of miracles.

Meiri offers an explanation of the mishnah in Avot in which the mishnah enumerates ideas crucial to our worldview.  Their inclusion in the six days of creation indicates their ultimate significance.  The earth opening alludes to punishment of the wicked while the well of Miriam indicates reward for the righteous.  I will not outline his explanations for the entire list here but will suffice with two intriguing aspects.  According to Meiri, the burial place of Moshe is significant precisely because we do not know where it is lest it become an object of worship.  We certainly acknowledge the greatness of our heroic leaders but we also reject any attempt to attribute divinity to them.  Meiri explains that mazikim (translated above as “the spirits of destruction”) refers to the evil inclination, itself a crucial element of the created order.  Without the energy and drive generated by the aggressive elements of the human personality, the world could not survive (see Bereishit Rabba 9:7).

Avot certainly serves as guide to Jewish ethics but it may also be a guide to Jewish philosophy.  Meiri’s reading gives this mishnah philosophical weight and theological importance.

Tag-MehirTzedek:
Dan- The opposite of your conclusions. Its not athiestic tendencies, actually its the opposite. It is saying that G-D's "program" in the world is perfect. The software which produced this world is perfect and doesn't need upgrades. Within the program their is included incidents which are not to the same frequency of other things made, but its all perfectly planned and made.
 Also about free choice- G-D Knows what one will choose, never-the-less we have free choice. This is a hard philosophical thing to grasp as is time, but G-D is above time.
 And about the "voice" of G-D that Moshe heard, Rambam (in Moreh) explains that it was a created entity as well.

muman613:

--- Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on April 30, 2012, 09:38:11 PM ---I didn't say it was atheism, it's "theism light".  I don't have a problem with the idea that G-d knew of miracles before they occured, I just don't like the explanation that G-d didn't intervene in history and didn't really perform miracles.  Judaism has rejected the Presbyterian doctrine of pre-destination, which deals with similar issues, so I find it ironic that some rabbis accept this.

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This does not have anything to do with predestination as you suggest. It has to do with Hashems knowledge that there will be a Jewish people. We believe that the reason Hashem created the entire universe was so that the Jewish people would exist. Thus we have the belief that the Torah existed for 2000 years before creation {as the blueprint of creation}, and that the Torah really should have started with the first mitzvah {marking the first day of the month of the Jewish lunar calendar}.

http://www.beingjewish.com/basics/torahstudy.html


--- Quote ---What is the secret of our existence? The Torah. Though, actually, it's no secret. It is our very reason for existence. More to the point, it is the reason that the world exists.

The Midrash tells us that Hashem created the Torah two thousand years before He created the universe (Midrash Beraishis Rabbah, 8). When the time came to create the universe, Hashem used the Torah as a blueprint. Just as a builder places walls where the blueprint says to put them, and doors where the blueprint says to put them, Hashem created the Torah and used that as a blueprint. (Midrash Beraishis Rabbah 1:1)

What does this mean? It means that the reason we are born with hands is because Hashem wrote in the Torah the Commandment of giving charity. We need hands to give charity, so we are born with hands.

We have parents because the Torah says "Honor your father and your mother."

The Torah commands us to pray; the Torah commands us not to gossip; the Torah commands us to eat Matzah on Passover night; the Torah commands us to teach our sons Torah: therefore, we are born with mouths.

Without this knowledge, we would have thought precisely the opposite. We would have assumed that since we have eyes, Hashem commanded us not to look at idols, and not to look at debauchery, etc. But the truth is the reverse. Hashem created the Commandments first, and then gave us the ability to obey or transgress those Commandments.

The Torah was not only the blueprint for Creation, it is also what keeps the world in existence today! The Rabbis teach us that the observance of the Covenant of Circumcision and the Covenant of the Torah keep the world in existence (Babylonian Talmud, Shabbos 137b; Pesachim 68b; Nedarim 31a).
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http://www.meaningfullife.com/torah/parsha/bamidbar/bamidbar/The_First_Creation.php


--- Quote ---The First Mitzvah
Time’s status as the “first creation” sheds light on another point raised by the commentaries on the first verse of the book of Genesis. In his commentary on this verse, Rashi quotes the Midrash:

The Torah should have begun with, “This month shall be to you the head of months...” (Exodus 12), which is the first mitzvah commanded to the people of Israel. Why does it begin ‘In the beginning of...’?

Torah means “law” and “instruction”; the function of the Torah is instruct us on the laws of life, which it does via the 613 mitzvot (divine commandments) it addresses to the people of Israel. But the first such mitzvah appears only in the 12th chapter of Exodus, where G-d commands the mitzvah of kiddush hachodesh - the “sanctification of the new month” and the setting of the Jewish calendar. Why, asks the Midrash, does the Torah devote the first of its five books, and a good part of the second, to things other than its primary purpose? While there is many a lesson to be learned from the Torah’s accounts of the creation of the universe, the history of mankind and the lives of the Patriarchs, would it not be more appropriate for the Torah to begin with G-d’s direct instructions to us?

The Midrash goes on to explain the Torah’s reason for opening with its account of the creation - a reason whose deeper significance we have explored on another occasion.[2]

 In this essay, we shall dwell on the Midrash’s reference to the mitzvah of kiddush hachodesh as “the first mitzvah to be commanded the Jewish people.” Why, indeed, was this our first mitzvah? Obviously, the setting of our calendar has a far-reaching influence on many other mitzvot—it determines when we will sound the shofar, fast and atone for our sins, conduct the Passover seder, as well as a host of other time-specific observances. But it would seem that there a number of other, no less fundamental mitzvot. In what sense is the mitzvah of setting the calendar more basic to our service of G-d than mitzvot such as Torah study, charity or prayer?
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