Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
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Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Zelhar on April 21, 2012, 03:20:52 PM ---I think this article shows nothing but biased against science. "supernatural" is by definition something that cannot be explained scientifically. And of course G-d by definition is not a natural phenomenon that one can measure and explain scientifically. Genetics and evolution are not and cannot refute the existence of G-d but some atheists bastardize pseudo-scientific rhetoric in an attempt to make people believe they are right. However I think on the other side you have the "flat earth society" type of people that think the bible is the only valid science book, something it was never meant to be.
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Yes,obviously a scientist will seek only a natural explanation - otherwise he would be doing theology, not science. The scientist's job is to seek natural explanations to phenomena in nature, so we can understand them better (to the best of our ability anyway). The writers of articles like this are very insecure about themselves and their beliefs because they cannot simply be confident that BEHIND the natural explanations are ultimately a supernatural source. They feel the need to attack every natural explanation (typically using using attacks without much or basis). Just because a scientist doesn't mention God, it does equate to an "attack" on religion or belief in God! The overly defensive posture and indignation of the articles like this is a bit embarrassing. Religionists should be confident of the veracity of the Torah.
It is also funny how they always arbitrarily draw the line at a certain level of complexity. If I combine sodium hydroxide and hydrogen chloride in a test tube to produce salt (sodium chloride) why am I "allowed" by these geniuses to explain that naturally? God is not involved with that but He is involved in toxins fitting into protein receptors?
Clearly the answer is that God is behind all of these phenomena but we should still try to arrive at naturasl explanations for all of them (if we are able to) because that is our job to understand the workings of God in nature and to appreciate them.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on April 22, 2012, 02:06:20 PM ---The claim that it's a scientist's job to seek only natural explanations does not logically lead to the conclusion that there are only natural explanations for everything. Like I said earlier, if there are scientists seeking a "natural explanation" for the chariot of fire that carried Elijah away, they are just grasping at straws. Furthermore, even if a scientist found a "natural explanation" for the chariot of fire, the 10 plagues, etc., it doesn't mean that the natural explanation would be the right one. To try to find a natural explanation for the chariot of fire would mean that a scientist is making an assumption that there is no G-d before even starting. This is the same thing that the scientist in the article is doing when he assumes evolution before he even starts his experiment.
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Chariots of fire do not fall under the purview of science. Scientists investigate natural causes to natural phenomena that can be observed in nature or in the lab. A vision from centuries ago that cannot be replicated simply cannot be studied.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on April 22, 2012, 02:06:20 PM ---The claim that it's a scientist's job to seek only natural explanations does not logically lead to the conclusion that there are only natural explanations for everything. Like I said earlier, if there are scientists seeking a "natural explanation" for the chariot of fire that carried Elijah away, they are just grasping at straws. Furthermore, even if a scientist found a "natural explanation" for the chariot of fire, the 10 plagues, etc., it doesn't mean that the natural explanation would be the right one. To try to find a natural explanation for the chariot of fire would mean that a scientist is making an assumption that there is no G-d before even starting. This is the same thing that the scientist in the article is doing when he assumes evolution before he even starts his experiment.
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Is this 'Mister Rational' speaking?
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
So you believe that if someone started writing theories about how a chariot of fire could have appeared by natural means, this would appear in a peer reviewed journal of any merit?
Sorry, but nature, cell, or science are not publishing that because its fantasy not reproducible science.
A minor journal might publish it if they can actually produce such an experience with a consistent protocol! And who cares if they can? Does that mean to you that the original never happened?
Second question, about the plagues, do you believe that God's miracles cannot happen through natural phenomena? Isn't that what creation is? God's acts expressing themselves in the natural world we perceive and live in? Or did he only create unnatural things? (In that case, exactly what world are we living in if not the one God created?)
Did God "erase Himself" from the splitting of the sea when He dictated to Moshe who wrote it down in His own Torah that it was caused by a strong east wind blowing all night? (See exodus 14:21)
Sorry, friend, but it is YOUR mistake when you erase God from any seemingly natural event or whenever His actions are expressed in the natural world thru natural mechanisms. A very big mistake. No reason to fear natural explanations of things we experience.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: Dan Ben Noah on April 29, 2012, 06:00:35 PM ---
If you're saying that G-d intervened in nature at certain points in history in order to make miracles occur using elements of nature, that I would agree with. With respect to the east wind blowing all night--wind is a part of nature. However, wind blowing at a certain time and place in order to allow Israel to pass through a sea on dry land, and then stopping at the time needed to destroy the Egyptian army--that is not a natural phenomenon. That is a process that would require divine intervention to create.
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I think you both are agreeing. G-D is certainly great and master of all, including the precise time of each event happening. The miracle of the sea splitting etc. demonstrates G-D's control of all including time and being precise to the last second. According to some (perhaps Rambam as well), the whole universe and everything that happened or will happen (from our point) was already done at the exact point of creation. The great "intervention" if you will is time. What was, Is and Will be is all part of the creation of the world. And G-D does run this world according to His will of natural laws (aka nature). Even the miracles are all part of G-D's natural system to the world which He created and placed at the precise time He willed it. These are hard concepts to grasp soo I hope one reads it carefully.
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