Anti-Israel Asher Meza attacks Chabad

[muman613]

The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L would have been a natural ally to Chabad. The vehement anti-Zionism that Satmar espouses is shared by Chabad maybe more than any other Chasidus. In the recently published "Igros Maharit", a letter signed by dozens of Hungraian Rabbonim before the war against Zionism, including Satmar, uses as its main authority the Lubavitcher Rebbe Rashab! All the Hungarian Rabbonim declared that we must follow what the Lubavitcher Rebbe Rashab said!
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The only question is, what caused otherwise intelligent and reasonable people to go so bananas in regard to religion? The answer is, this is precisely what the Torah leaders were warning us about, the past 40 years. They told us that the new innovations of Chabad were poison, and many did not believe it. But now we see the casualties of it - and so anybody can now see the extent of the poisonousness that we were warned about, way back when.

Just give it up... nobody is reading this stuff anymore. You made your point...

[Dr. Dan]

I just noticed something. "jewish"warrior only responds to muman's posts.  I have an idea, muman.  Either ignore this pro suicidal anti Judaism Jew or cut and paste everyone's response. 

Even take quotes from righteous gentiles as evidence.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

when bochurim from the Yeshiva asked him about learning Sifrei Chabad he said ... nowadays we have to be very careful because there are among the Lubavitchers today those who twist the Torah, and we have to be careful not to fall into their trap ... and therefore, you should learn Tanya only as much as other Chassidishe Seforim, and not make a unique project of it."

I'm quoting from you, the person that YOU quoted.  Read his quote carefully.   

because there are among the Lubavitchers today those who twist the Torah,

Yes, AMONG them, but not all of them!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The fact that this so-called Jewish Warrior said the Holocaust was brought on by Zionism is enough to make me want to ban him.  However, to be fair.  I think I'll put him in the Time Out Corner first.

I don't think he should be banned, although he is acting like a cheap propagandist with all of his quote-mining.      He looks very foolish here and members are disposing of him with clear arguments that defeat him.     It also adds life to the forum.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L would have been a natural ally to Chabad. The vehement anti-Zionism that Satmar espouses is shared by Chabad maybe more than any other Chasidus.

Typical political BS in the guise of supposed religiosity propagated by you Satmarers.      Your logic is accordingly:   "If they oppose zionism, we are an ally.   If they agree with zionism we are enemies."     How twisted and completely unrelated to Judaism.

You Satmarers are all politics and very little religion.

[jewishwarrior]

Just give it up... nobody is reading this stuff anymore. You made your point...

If otherwise reasonable, intelligent, G-d fearing Jews, who learn torah, daven, and try to keep the mitzvos, can be made to have such repulsive beliefs (such as the "I asked the Rebbe" thing), the destructiveness of the poison that could have caused this must have been very strong indeed.

Please, please, think about what you are doing. Do not just blindly follow your "crowd". I understand how difficult it was to lose your beloved rebbe, but the torah of hashem still lives on. The 613 Mitzvos are still here. Drop the baggage, please, and if you need a Rebbe, find one. There are many out there for you. You do not have to hold on to ghosts.

Please understand that this is not written out of any animosity. You are a Jew and we are together in this. When you go off, we all suffer, and we are all pained. You will be accepted as an equal in any frum circles if you want, as long as you drop the anti-Torah beliefs.

Everywhere else, Jews are taught to bring Nachas to Hashem. In Chabad, the goal of Mitzvos is to bring Nachas Ruach to the Rebbe. Rav Shach wrote that this is part of the Avodah Zarah of these people.

To say that the reason you are behaving like Jews is to bring Nachas Ruach to the Rebbe is disgusting and idolatry, as Rav Shach writes. Especially when telling this to little children, the message that "You are doing Mitzvos to being Nachas to the rebbe" is total avodah zarah.

what CHabad does today is not the same as was ever done. When someone used a message form CHumash or a Sefer as a "gorel" of sorts, they were not communicating with the dead author of the sefer. If they used a Tehillim, they did not believe they were "asking Dovid HaMelech". It was merely a sign from Shamayim, and as we explained before, you hav eto know how to use it.

But in any case, NEVER would anyone "communicate" with a dead Rebbe or any other author by reading from a Sefer. That is a totally psycho concept with no source except voodoo supersition, incorporated into Yiddishkeit by Chabad.

And remember, this has not been done until after the Rebbe died. It is clearly neurotic to believe that you are still talking to your Rebbe. To be neurotic itself is not a religion problem, but when you claim that Torah sources support and even encourage what is really a neurosis, and you have people make decisions based on that nonsense, you have a case of corrupting the Torah.

It is typical of off-the-derech movements to compare their deviant actions to legitimate ones that look similar, but are in reality not at all the same. This is an example. Getting a message from a dead author is not done in our religion, has zero source, and is typical of the non-Torah beliefs that have infiltrated into contemporary Chabad "Chasidus" (sic).

[Dr. Dan]

Yet zionism is avodah zara according to you and your "rebbe".  Your interpretation of the Torah and our sages and navim are atrocious and not what Torah Judaism stands for.

If otherwise reasonable, intelligent, G-d fearing Jews, who learn torah, daven, and try to keep the mitzvos, can be made to have such repulsive beliefs (such as the "I asked the Rebbe" thing), the destructiveness of the poison that could have caused this must have been very strong indeed.

Please, please, think about what you are doing. Do not just blindly follow your "crowd". I understand how difficult it was to lose your beloved rebbe, but the torah of hashem still lives on. The 613 Mitzvos are still here. Drop the baggage, please, and if you need a Rebbe, find one. There are many out there for you. You do not have to hold on to ghosts.

Please understand that this is not written out of any animosity. You are a Jew and we are together in this. When you go off, we all suffer, and we are all pained. You will be accepted as an equal in any frum circles if you want, as long as you drop the anti-Torah beliefs.

Everywhere else, Jews are taught to bring Nachas to Hashem. In Chabad, the goal of Mitzvos is to bring Nachas Ruach to the Rebbe. Rav Shach wrote that this is part of the Avodah Zarah of these people.

To say that the reason you are behaving like Jews is to bring Nachas Ruach to the Rebbe is disgusting and idolatry, as Rav Shach writes. Especially when telling this to little children, the message that "You are doing Mitzvos to being Nachas to the rebbe" is total avodah zarah.

what CHabad does today is not the same as was ever done. When someone used a message form CHumash or a Sefer as a "gorel" of sorts, they were not communicating with the dead author of the sefer. If they used a Tehillim, they did not believe they were "asking Dovid HaMelech". It was merely a sign from Shamayim, and as we explained before, you hav eto know how to use it.

But in any case, NEVER would anyone "communicate" with a dead Rebbe or any other author by reading from a Sefer. That is a totally psycho concept with no source except voodoo supersition, incorporated into Yiddishkeit by Chabad.

And remember, this has not been done until after the Rebbe died. It is clearly neurotic to believe that you are still talking to your Rebbe. To be neurotic itself is not a religion problem, but when you claim that Torah sources support and even encourage what is really a neurosis, and you have people make decisions based on that nonsense, you have a case of corrupting the Torah.

It is typical of off-the-derech movements to compare their deviant actions to legitimate ones that look similar, but are in reality not at all the same. This is an example. Getting a message from a dead author is not done in our religion, has zero source, and is typical of the non-Torah beliefs that have infiltrated into contemporary Chabad "Chasidus" (sic).

[Israel Chai]

Nobody prays to dead rabbis as far as I know, necromancy is forbidden.

I'm on that Zionism thing there, you know, the one you hate so. Where in your twisted mind do you get off that Jews living in the land of Israel is against Torah? What about the Jews that lived there before the state of Israel, were they suddenly pure, but the second the state came into being, poof they're sinners now???

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Nobody prays to dead rabbis as far as I know, necromancy is forbidden.

I'm on that Zionism thing there, you know, the one you hate so. Where in your twisted mind do you get off that Jews living in the land of Israel is against Torah? What about the Jews that lived there before the state of Israel, were they suddenly pure, but the second the state came into being, poof they're sinners now???

[jewishwarrior]

Nobody prays to dead rabbis as far as I know, necromancy is forbidden.

I'm on that Zionism thing there, you know, the one you hate so. Where in your twisted mind do you get off that Jews living in the land of Israel is against Torah? What about the Jews that lived there before the state of Israel, were they suddenly pure, but the second the state came into being, poof they're sinners now???

Saying shlita on a dead person is based on a twisting of the Torah, which is prohibited halachically.

Also, as we saw, pointing out a specific someone as the Moshiach if he is not violates the Oaths that G-d gave us to make sure we do not begin the Geulah proess until its proper time time. The penalty, by the way, for violating these oaths, is that Jews will be "hunted down like animals in the field". And since the "Rebbe = Moshiach" is also based on twisted Torah sources, it, too involves the same halachic prohibitions that the "shlita" thing does.

The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L was vehemently opposed to Lubavitch. He said that after he's done with exposing Zionism, his next project is to write a Sefer exposing Lubavitch. In his Divrei Yoel (Tzav) he calls them - including the Rebbe - "idiots" (tipshim) for the idea that because Moshiach told the Baal Shem Tov that in his generation that the spreading of Chasidus is what is needed to bring Moshiach, that today, in our generation, the same thing applies.

This, of course, is the Lubavitcher Rebbe's main reason for his Kiruv project. That since the Baal Shem Tov was told that spreading Chasidus would bring Moshaich, so we have to teach Tanya to all the Jews in the world and then Moshiach will come today. Oy. Is there any quesiton why Lubavitch was so opposed by a great Tzadik like that if they have such ideas?? "Tipshim" he calls them. And that's not the worst thing he had to say about contemporary Chabad.

He told the Bochurim in his Yeshiva that they may learn Tanya - for it is a holy sefer - but nowadays they have to be very careful since the Lubavitchers today twist the Tanya into ideas that are similar to Zionism (i.e. Meshichism, which, like Zionism, is the ushering in of Geulah behaviors before the proper time).

I assume the Lubavitcher Rebbe qualifies as "knowledgable" to you, and he has already answered for instance why Lubavitch doesnt sleep in a Sukkah. The reason is because if youre Chabad you have Tzar that you dont have Tzar that youre not on the level of the Mittleler Rebeb who did have Tzar when sleeping in the Sukah. And thats true whether the chosid knows he's b'tzar or not! I am not making this up. It's in Likutei Sichos, and the details were quoted above.

For shalosh seudos, the reason they dont wash is because they want to imitate the previous rebbes who couldnt eat during shalosh seudos, and that qualifies them as exempt like a choleh, even though they dont feel any pain at all.

And he also answered why Lubavitchers ask a Rebbe to intercede for them to Hashem, and that is because askign somethign from a Rebbe is not interceding but going directly to G-d since a Rebbe is G-d in a body. So much for "answers". We have them already. It's because of these answers given by the Rebbe himself - not the questions - that Chabad is considered off.

And even though inside Chabad they claim to be following the Baal Shem Tov's derech, that is looked at the same as when Modern Orthodoxy says they are following Rav SR Hirsch or Rav YY Weinberg, or when Philip Berg says he's following Rav Shimon bar Yochai.

This does not mean all of the deviant movements are equally messed up, but it does mean that internally, they all do things against the Torah and then try to say they're following a legitimate Torah opinion, when the facts show that they do not.

Lubavitch is perceived as just another wrongheaded movement with bad beliefs, many of which have been listed in posts above. They have no more connection to the Baal Shem Tov than Modern Orthodoxy has to the Rambam, even though they both claim to be following them.

If you can show me where I am wrong then please feel free to do so, but neither the "shluchim" nor anyone else including the Lubavitcher Rebbe has come close to defending the new Chabad behaviors in the past generation. Sorry.

[Dr. Dan]

And how does excluding an important mitzva like zionism make your rabbi a saint?

Saying shlita on a dead person is based on a twisting of the Torah, which is prohibited halachically.

Also, as we saw, pointing out a specific someone as the Moshiach if he is not violates the Oaths that G-d gave us to make sure we do not begin the Geulah proess until its proper time time. The penalty, by the way, for violating these oaths, is that Jews will be "hunted down like animals in the field". And since the "Rebbe = Moshiach" is also based on twisted Torah sources, it, too involves the same halachic prohibitions that the "shlita" thing does.

The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L was vehemently opposed to Lubavitch. He said that after he's done with exposing Zionism, his next project is to write a Sefer exposing Lubavitch. In his Divrei Yoel (Tzav) he calls them - including the Rebbe - "idiots" (tipshim) for the idea that because Moshiach told the Baal Shem Tov that in his generation that the spreading of Chasidus is what is needed to bring Moshiach, that today, in our generation, the same thing applies.

This, of course, is the Lubavitcher Rebbe's main reason for his Kiruv project. That since the Baal Shem Tov was told that spreading Chasidus would bring Moshaich, so we have to teach Tanya to all the Jews in the world and then Moshiach will come today. Oy. Is there any quesiton why Lubavitch was so opposed by a great Tzadik like that if they have such ideas?? "Tipshim" he calls them. And that's not the worst thing he had to say about contemporary Chabad.

He told the Bochurim in his Yeshiva that they may learn Tanya - for it is a holy sefer - but nowadays they have to be very careful since the Lubavitchers today twist the Tanya into ideas that are similar to Zionism (i.e. Meshichism, which, like Zionism, is the ushering in of Geulah behaviors before the proper time).

I assume the Lubavitcher Rebbe qualifies as "knowledgable" to you, and he has already answered for instance why Lubavitch doesnt sleep in a Sukkah. The reason is because if youre Chabad you have Tzar that you dont have Tzar that youre not on the level of the Mittleler Rebeb who did have Tzar when sleeping in the Sukah. And thats true whether the chosid knows he's b'tzar or not! I am not making this up. It's in Likutei Sichos, and the details were quoted above.

For shalosh seudos, the reason they dont wash is because they want to imitate the previous rebbes who couldnt eat during shalosh seudos, and that qualifies them as exempt like a choleh, even though they dont feel any pain at all.

And he also answered why Lubavitchers ask a Rebbe to intercede for them to Hashem, and that is because askign somethign from a Rebbe is not interceding but going directly to G-d since a Rebbe is G-d in a body. So much for "answers". We have them already. It's because of these answers given by the Rebbe himself - not the questions - that Chabad is considered off.

And even though inside Chabad they claim to be following the Baal Shem Tov's derech, that is looked at the same as when Modern Orthodoxy says they are following Rav SR Hirsch or Rav YY Weinberg, or when Philip Berg says he's following Rav Shimon bar Yochai.

This does not mean all of the deviant movements are equally messed up, but it does mean that internally, they all do things against the Torah and then try to say they're following a legitimate Torah opinion, when the facts show that they do not.

Lubavitch is perceived as just another wrongheaded movement with bad beliefs, many of which have been listed in posts above. They have no more connection to the Baal Shem Tov than Modern Orthodoxy has to the Rambam, even though they both claim to be following them.

If you can show me where I am wrong then please feel free to do so, but neither the "shluchim" nor anyone else including the Lubavitcher Rebbe has come close to defending the new Chabad behaviors in the past generation. Sorry.

[muman613]

When will this troll be banned. He keeps posting the same thing over and over. Is there any good in anything which he has written? He has copied and pasted vast volumes of a topic which everyone is aware of. Either you accept this guys interpretation, or you reject it. I personally am in the camp which rejects his complete opinion based on my experience with Chabad Rabbis. I think all here at JTF are aware of the conflict and can decide for themselves how to proceed.

I think this thread should be locked, or the troll banned...

[Israel Chai]

Quote from nazikapowarrior: some idiot I jack off to promised me late one night he would expose Zionism for me finally.

How about I expose Zionism to you traitor; you're too much of a weird, twisted little p***y to be a part of it.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

antiJewish warrior is nothing but a Satmarer fraud.     He keeps propagandizing his dead rebbe's sermons, but cannot repond to logical arguments.     Of course to him, just like all his satmarer coreligionists (whatever ghettoized thing they are following), everything is pasul treife except him and what his rebbe said.       Modern orthodox is treife, zionism is treife, what the Vilna Gaon wrote is treife, its all traife except satmar Ghetto "Judaism."   And don't believe his fraud which he perpetrates here when he quotes famous rabbis of the recent past.     He only does so with statements they have made that sound like they are in agreement with the views of his satmar rebbe.      If they said anything different from his rebbe, he would pasul them too at the drop of a hat.       

The only thing he can be credited with is that he does point out some of the theological problems in chabad philosophy which some chabad followers have made into a very sick ideology.     Well, takes one to know one I guess.  His sick satmar ideology can recognize very well a sick cousin ideology.

[jewishwarrior]

When will this troll be banned. He keeps posting the same thing over and over. Is there any good in anything which he has written? He has copied and pasted vast volumes of a topic which everyone is aware of. Either you accept this guys interpretation, or you reject it. I personally am in the camp which rejects his complete opinion based on my experience with Chabad Rabbis. I think all here at JTF are aware of the conflict and can decide for themselves how to proceed.

I think this thread should be locked, or the troll banned...

The problem is not the Rashab's ruling that you do not have to wash for Shalosh Seudos. Many poskim hold like that. And the Rebbe Rashab is fully entiteld to hold like them. But the Lubavitcher Rebbe said something totaly different.

Although the Lubavitcher Rebbe agrees with the rashab that you do not have to wash for shalosh seudos, he, on top of that, concocted out of thin air a totally against Halachah reason for it.

Namely, not that the poskim who hold not to wash are the majority, or the greater ones, or they have the most valid arguments, but rather, the reason not to wash is that Lubavitcher Chasidim should copy the behavior of their previous Rebbes, who could not eat because they were so "flying" spiritually during shlosh seudos that they couldnt bear to be invovled with a physical activity such as eating. The idea that the need to mimic their Rebbe for no reason creates a Halachic instruction.

It is that REASONING, that misguided interpretation of what creates Halachic instructions, the misinterpretation of what a Rebbe-Chosid relationship is, the entire twisted notion that is the problem. Not the not washing.

If a Rebbe cannot eat, then he is patur perhaps, like a choleh. But if the Talmid or Chosid is nto a choleh, he must eat. The Lubavitcher Rebbe admits that the only reason the previous Rebbes didnt eat is because they were like a choleh so they could not.

But we can. Making believe youre a choleh is not a reaosn to determine halachic issues one way or the other.

But in chabad, the robotic, blind, meaningless imitating of the Rebbe is whats important.

That's the problem.

The problem is that the Lubavitcher Rebbe holds that imitating the outside, chitzonius actions of your Rebbe is not only important, but is important enough to determine Halachic practice, namely, which poskim to follow.

Therefore, he says that since certain Rebbes could not eat because they were considered like Cholim (sick people), the Chassidim should all follow the poskim that say not to eat (i.e. wash) thereby appearing like peopel who are considered like sick people (i.e. the Rebbes) and therefore somehow are "following in the derech" of their rebbes.

Not only is this reasoning unacceptable as a reason to follow Halachic opinion A over B, but it is totally against the tradiitons of Chasidus, and is a perfect example of how Chabad has twisted Chasidus into a laughable caricature of what it once was.

Only Chabad does this. And only today's Chabad. Real Chasidus does not mean imitating the outer actions of your Rebbe, and real Halachah does not mean that such imitation should dfetermine Halachic practice.

In real Chasidus, the way it was practiced everywhere and still is except in Chabad, such empty, chitzonius imitation of Rebbes are criticized as stupidity and a twisting of the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov. In Chabad, what the great Chasidic masters considered "stupidity", the Lubavitcher Rebbe considers "chasidus".

The Satmar Rebbe ZT"L told this story after he once accidently came to the Pesach seder and made Kiddush without his shtraimel on. When he realized he forgot his shtraimel he asked the Chasidim why nobody told him he wasnt wearning his shtraimel.

They asnwered that they thought that for sure the Rebbe has a reason for it. He said no, he didnt, and told them the story of the Saraf ZY"A to show how simple Chasidim can sometimes imitate a Rebbes outside behavior without a reason, which is wrong.

This nonsense is what has become "Chassidus" in Lubavitch.

And worse, this nonsense has not only become Chasidus, but Halachah too. This is what decides which poskim to follow regarding shalosh seudos.

That is the problem.

[Zelhar]

antijewish warrior is the old troll wonga. he used the exact sentence about the supposed quote by rabbi Shach about Chabad. This thread is now 10 pages long. why do you bother feeding this twisted hater ?

[Dr. Dan]

Does this fraud deserve a Ymach shmo?  Just let me know and ill lock this thread and van thus fool who only responds to muman, but not to anyone else's argument.

[USAReturn2GodNow1776]

I think that proselytizing is neither encouraged by nor against Torah. There were periods when it was done and periods when it was not done. So to encourage proselytizing is not wrong. But it is wrong for Asher to suggest that it is wrong or cruel not to proselytize or to attempt to talk prospective converts out of converting. There is no such thing as a right to be Jewish or any other nationality.

Securing the land of Israel for the Jewish people is something  that everyone should be 100% for. Asher should be ashamed.

[jewishwarrior]

antijewish warrior is the old troll wonga. he used the exact sentence about the supposed quote by rabbi Shach about Chabad. This thread is now 10 pages long. why do you bother feeding this twisted hater ?

Yes, it is true that many things Jews do are wrong, and many things Lubavitchers do is wrong. But the big difference is, Judaism has remained the same, it's just Jews that have violated it. In Chabad, Judaism itself has changed. The problem is NOT just people who do NOT follow the Lubavitcher Rebbe, but the people that DO. In other words, the issue here is the problem of the Rebbe, not the Chasidim.

The opposition ot Lubavitch is based on things the Rebbe himself did and said, many of which have been listed above.

Statements such as (Likutei Sichos II:p.511) a Rebbe is G-d Himself clothed in a body, and that Lubavitcher Chasidim - and ONLY Lubavitcher Chasidim - do not have to sleep in a Sukkah because they should be like the Mitteler Rebbe who had a hard time sleeping in the Sukkah because the Shechinah is there, and other things that are against the Torah as well, is what we are talking about.

If Jews want to do the wrong thing, they have free will to do it, but if they want to do the right thing, they know what it is. In Lubavitch, the wrong thing has been made into the RIGHT thing, which is a totally different problem.

The first is violating the Torah, the second is changing it. The second is much worse, since even people who want to do the right thing are misled into doing the wrong thing by the leader, in this case, the Rebbe.

In this, Chabad has something in common with Modern Orthodoxy, the JDL, Zionism, and other deviant groups. Namely, they all claim to be following the Torah but really changed the Torah to follow them. So just like if someone grows up in a Zionist school for instance, and has a lot of Yiras Shamayim, he will still be off the derech, because he thinks he is following the Torah but is not, so too in Lubavitch, those who DO listen to the Rebbe will be going against the Torah.

[Dr. Dan]

Goodbye Nazi lover.