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ONE MILLION Haredim planning to march against a Torah command!
Tag-MehirTzedek:
The article I mentioned earlier in full-- (thanks to)
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“K a h a n e”
The magazine of the authentic Jewish Idea
November-December 1988 Cheshvan – Kislev 5749
The following article written in 1988 is one of the top topics today in the Knesset and all-segments of the Israeli people. It is the TAL Law. Rabbi Kahane writes who should go into the army, who should not in this obligatory war we are fighting against our enemies. Separate unit for ultra-Orthodox in the army etc. This article should be handed to Prime Minister Netanyahu and to all rabbis. Amazing that Rabbi Kahane hit on the problem so many years ago, and came up with a solution. Interesting reading for all.
The Weakness
In their obsessive attack on authentic Jewry, what have the haters not touched upon? How the “ultra-Orthodox” dress; how they speak; how they cheat; how they are parasites; how they are aggressive; how they keep to themselves. All the horrible charges dredged up by the Nazis against the Jewish people, per se. All the Jewish anti-Semitism that is as brutal and nauseating as the gentile kind.
But amidst all the lies and calumny and defamation and sheer hate, there is one point which the haters have seized upon which strikes a tragically responsive chord in many a Jew in Israel who is not anti-religious. That is the question of army service for Yeshiva students.
Let it be clear. There is nothing more important for the Jewish people than the study of Torah. Upon Torah study does Israel – and the world – rest. Torah scholars are infinitely more important to Israel than any category of professionals and it is not relevant that secular Jews do not grasp this.
“The study of Torah is greater than the building of the Holy Temple.”
“The study of Torah is greater than honoring parents.”
“The study of Torah is greater than the priesthood and the kingship”
There is clear, beyond debate. The question that remains, however is: what does a scholar do in the time of a milchemet mitzvah, an obligatory war, one of the categories that Maimonides (Hilchot M’lachim 5:1) lists: “And what is an obligatory war? The war against the seven (Canaanite) nations; the war against Amalek, and aiding Israel against an enemy that comes up against them.”
If ever there was such a war as mentioned in the third category it is surely this struggle against the Arabs who come up against us to destroy Israel.
Given that, it is surely a halachic question whether anyone is exempt from such a war. Maimonides brings down the Braita (Tractate Sotah) and declares: “In an obligatory war, all go out (to battle), even the bridegroom from his room and the bride from her canopy.” (Hilchot M’lachim 7:4)
Whether this includes those scholars who do nothing but learn is a question that many of the commentators deal with but it is certainly something to consider. What is clear is that the entire issue is one that has led to tremendous anger and bitter antagonisms on the part of many Jews who are not haters of Torah Judaism and let no one underestimate the damage and Hillul Hashem that this is causing. The fact that sons of some Jews go into army and risk danger to life while others do not, is an explosive one that leads to intense bitterness especially when it is fanned by the professional inciters of Torah-hating Left.
If the halachic, nevertheless, says that scholars shall not go into the army – then that settles the issue, not matter how critical and bitter it will become. But surely, the rabbis must deal decisively and courageously with the issue and not allow internal pressure from certain groups within the religious community to sway them or cause them to hesitate to rule forcefully if the halachic does call for army service for all scholars in the event of a milchemet mitzvah.
On the other hand, it is clear that a student who does not devote his entire time to Torah study; who does not “mediate therein day and night”; who studies only most or part of the day but also works or gives of his time to other things, is surely obligated to participate in a milchemet mitzvah. If one’s dedication to Torah is not total and one can find time to work, then he can certainly find time to participate in the obligatory war of defending his land and sanctifying the Name of the Almighty, which is the basis of a milchemet mitzvah.
The main argument against this, aside from that of “bitul Torah” taking time away from the learning of Torah, is the one that, a yeshiva scholar who is placed in the environment of the army can easily be led astray. There is much, very much to this. As one who has served for many years in the army, I can testify to the almost total lack of anything sacred in the army. Not only is the atmosphere one that is totally secular but the immorality surrounding women soldiers is nothing short of scandalous. (And spare me the hypocritical pieties of: Do you not have enough faith in yeshiva students to trust them to overcome all this? I will accept this argument from all the parents who will see nothing wrong in allowing their children to wander freely in any kind of atmosphere and accept their angry complaint: Don’t you trust me?)
Nevertheless, there is a solution to this, also. The army can be asked to set aside a large army base for the exclusive use of religious scholars. There, they will undergo the same kind of training that other soldiers do and there they can have their rabbis visit each night and pass on Torah lessons to them. It will be a base which will be totally religious, sacred and moral – but an army base in every sense of the word.
Is such a suggestion so extreme? Hardly. It will find favor in the eyes of G-d and Jews. Consider how it would take from the Haters of Torah the most potent of weapons. Consider how it would sanctify the Name of G-d. And above all, there is no doubt that it is an accord with halachic.
Let those whose entire life is committed to Torah study be exempt, if the sages decide that even an obligatory war does not bind them. But the others, the many others, who study only partially, cannot avoid the halachic obligation to participate in the milchemet mitzvah of defending the Land of Israel from the enemy that comes up against it.
Chaim Ben Pesach:
--- Quote from: Dr. Dan on July 17, 2012, 11:15:48 AM ---Chaim, but I have a question. You bring up a good point about today's IDF. But if it were the dignified type of IDF, what would your opinion be?
--- End quote ---
בס''ד
Great question.
I support Rabbi Kahane's position but it is conditioned on our having a Jewish army that protects the Jewish people. Right now we have an army that often acts as an enemy of the Jewish people.
The One and Only Mo:
They're not expecting the charedim to join the army; they want them to do National Service, which is work in hospitals and other places to help people (and get paid a bit, too).
Chaim Ben Pesach:
--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on July 17, 2012, 03:23:00 PM --- But if their was no army what would have happened then? The army also fights against Arab enemies (however weak it currently is). What is the solution then? I understand to not follow evil orders, but at the same time don't you see that an army or a force is needed to fight against the Arab enemies?
Also you mentioned pre-Gush Katif, are you telling me their weren't any serious problems back then? Including the kidnapping of Jewish children, shooting of the Altellena and other such incidents.
--- End quote ---
בס''ד
There will always be people who will enlist in the army. There will never be a situation where we have no army. If we ever reach a point where many Jews refuse to enlist because of the army's anti-Jewish practices, then the army will be forced to change for the better.
The army of the 1967 Six Day War and the 1973 Yom Kippur War was at least patriotic to a certain degree. Today's army is not even patriotic. Leftist generals are controlled by the anti-Semitic news media and the Supreme Court. Most of the army's major actions are harmful - expelling Jews, uprooting Jewish communities, helping Arab Muslim Nazis, brainwashing Jewish soldiers etc.
I must also say that I am furious with you right now. Yesterday you uploaded to this forum a Judenrat kapo video promoting the Muslim Nazi Barack Hussein Obama as a "friend" of Israel. I removed the thread containing the video because it caused unnecessary tension between members of this forum. But you uploaded this evil treasonous video and you wrote:
--- Quote --- " It can be argued perhaps that when a more open anti-Israel president is in power, Jews are more aware of that, thus more cautious as well."
I am not personally arguing for a more open anti-Israel administration. By the way some on the other political spectrum did claim that the democrats are the pro-Israel group compared to Republicans (that is what at least some will claim, not that I am agreeing them them, but that claim is out there by some people and groups. Even Obama himself claimed that.
--- End quote ---
In other words, you put forth as a serious point for consideration that Obama and the Democrats are "pro-Israel"! You then included the Obama Judenrat video.
This is beneath contempt. You call yourself "Tag Mechir" and pretend to be a super rightwinger and then you come on this forum urging us to consider the argument that Obama is "pro-Israel". I have lost all respect for you. Obama who demands that Israel go back to the pre-1967 holocaust borders and who for two whole years demanded that Jews not be allowed to live even in Jerusalem is "pro-Israel"?!?!?!? This black Muslim Nazi serpert is now cooling it for a while to get reelected, but he has promised to begin a huge campaign to get Israel to commit suicide if he wins a second term, G-d forbid. And you want us to look at his videos telling us that he is "pro-Israel".
Let me make it as clear as I can: Obama is openly working to destroy Israel and enable another holocaust in order to make his Muslim brothers victorious. Any Jew who in any way supports or excuses this is a self-hating traitor. Supporting Obama is like supporting Arafat or Ahmedinajad.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: Chaim Ben Pesach on July 17, 2012, 08:39:02 AM ---בס''ד
The Israeli army is the number one tool used by Israel's Bolshevik establishment for mass expulsions of Jews from their G-d given homeland.
The Israeli army systematically brainwashes huge numbers of soldiers to "understand" the Arab Nazi enemy (whom the army calls "Palestinians"). The army has a special brainwashing program against "racism" and to create "understanding" about Islam.
The Israeli army murders many Jewish soldiers by ordering them not to defend themselves properly so as not to harm Arab Nazi "civilians".
The Israeli army arms, trains and finances the PLO-Fatah terrorist mass murderers who use the weapons, training and money they receive to massacre Jews.
The Israeli army runs a radio station that is as treasonous and leftwing as "Peace Now" or any other anti-Zionist organization.
The Israeli army has generals and heads of their "intelligence" unit who continuously issue public reports telling Israeli Jews that the Arab Nazi mass murderers want "peace". During Oslo, the generals were constantly explaining how the Arab Hitler Yasser Arafat was now Israel's "peace partner".
If I were to list all of the crimes of this so-called army, I would have to write volumes.
Religious Jews who do not want to serve in this army are not committing any sin whatsoever. When our great leader HaRav Meir Kahane זצוק''ל הי''ד served in the army, it was a completely different time (pre-Oslo, pre-Gush Katif). And Rabbi Kahane made it clear even then that soldiers are obligated to disobey orders to expel their fellow Jews from the land of Israel.
--- End quote ---
If only these were the arguments presented by the haredim and their leadership! But we see that they do not say this or anything like it.
This is simply a case of a broken clock being right twice a day. The haredi leadership is against army service IN PRINCIPLE, just as they were in the better days when Rabbi Kahane served and fought. They are still against it today for the same reasons as then. And if tomorrow the IDF turned into an arab-killing machine, they would still be against it. They prefer that Jewish men live in a kollel society and fighting in an army (how goyish!) is for "subpar" Jews like me and you, not them.
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