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ONE MILLION Haredim planning to march against a Torah command!

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Yerusha:
The secularist Haaretz's view of R.Elyashiv. Unfortunately they may have a bit of a point:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/rabbi-elyashiv-s-empty-legacy.premium-1.452254

Haredi Jews are not given to calling up the Guinness Book of Records offices in London and claiming a place in its records. But were they prone to such a tendency, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the spiritual leader of "Lithuanian" ultra-Orthodoxy who passed away on Wednesday at the age of 102, may have well been a record-holder. He was one of the few men or women alive with over 1,000 living descendants (all from monogamous relationships), including a handful of great-great-great-grandchildren. Now that he is dead, it is certain that the new record-holder is another Haredi centenarian living in Jerusalem with similar progeny.

Talk of family planning and birth control within the Haredi community is tantamount to heresy - how can anyone view zar'a chaya ve’kayama (literally, living and existing offspring) that do not stop uttering the words of the Torah, as anything but a good thing? The questions of whether all parents are equipped and talented enough to deal with such huge families; the physical and mental toll of constant childbearing and childcare on young mothers who never have a chance to live life for themselves; and the broader economic and social viability of a community that multiplies itself at such a breathtaking pace without preparing its younger members to lead productive lives in an advanced society have not been addressed.

This is Rabbi Elyashiv’s real legacy. He was not the only architect of this society; other rabbis put the foundations in place, and both religious and secular politicians are at fault for having tailor-made Israel’s welfare system to cater for the needs of a Haredi sector whose members do not work or partake in any form of national service, save for studying a stultified version of Torah. But it was Elyashiv – who for 40 years was venerated as Posek Hador, the arbiter of a generation, and had the final word on any issue of halakhic law – who wielded ultimate political power over the most influential section of Haredi Jewry since the mid-1990s. He bears the responsibility for stifling any internal debate on resolving the tensions between an insular and traditional community and the modern Israeli society within which it exists and refusing to come up with solutions to the challenges threatening the sustainability of the Haredi model in the 21st century.

He could have used this unique opportunity to prepare his followers for the inevitable clash with the outside world, but he preferred to stop the clocks and freeze them in time. Any attempt at modernizing the curricula for boys and girls was met with fierce opposition to and denunciation of those who sought to sully “the pure education.” Likewise programs for vocational training for the majority of young men who are not fit to spending a life studying ancient texts were blocked. One of his last public proclamations was against academic courses designed specifically for young Haredi men and women, and it is ironic that his death came at the height of the public debate over Haredi conscription to the Israel Defense Forces.

His legacy is an empty one. Thousands are already defying his orders by joining the special IDF units in which Haredi men both serve and learn valuable skills for civilian life, and the academic streams specially tailored for ultra-Orthodox needs are flourishing despite his prohibitions. His path of paralysis has served to slow down these inevitable developments, damning most of the next Haredi generation to poverty, but despite his dictates, they are beginning to evolved and adapt to modern life. A century from now, Rabbi Elyashiv will not be revered as a Torah giant, but as a reactionary figure by the few who remember him.
 

Rubystars:
Yerusha I think that Jewish families should be large in Israel because it will help replenish the losses of numbers from all the pogroms and the Holocaust. I think it's a good thing if more Jewish babies are born, especially if they are raised by loving righteous families.

The One and Only Mo:

--- Quote from: Yerusha on July 20, 2012, 11:49:56 AM ---The secularist Haaretz's view of R.Elyashiv. Unfortunately they may have a bit of a point:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/rabbi-elyashiv-s-empty-legacy.premium-1.452254

Haredi Jews are not given to calling up the Guinness Book of Records offices in London and claiming a place in its records. But were they prone to such a tendency, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the spiritual leader of "Lithuanian" ultra-Orthodoxy who passed away on Wednesday at the age of 102, may have well been a record-holder. He was one of the few men or women alive with over 1,000 living descendants (all from monogamous relationships), including a handful of great-great-great-grandchildren. Now that he is dead, it is certain that the new record-holder is another Haredi centenarian living in Jerusalem with similar progeny.

Talk of family planning and birth control within the Haredi community is tantamount to heresy - how can anyone view zar'a chaya ve’kayama (literally, living and existing offspring) that do not stop uttering the words of the Torah, as anything but a good thing? The questions of whether all parents are equipped and talented enough to deal with such huge families; the physical and mental toll of constant childbearing and childcare on young mothers who never have a chance to live life for themselves; and the broader economic and social viability of a community that multiplies itself at such a breathtaking pace without preparing its younger members to lead productive lives in an advanced society have not been addressed.

This is Rabbi Elyashiv’s real legacy. He was not the only architect of this society; other rabbis put the foundations in place, and both religious and secular politicians are at fault for having tailor-made Israel’s welfare system to cater for the needs of a Haredi sector whose members do not work or partake in any form of national service, save for studying a stultified version of Torah. But it was Elyashiv – who for 40 years was venerated as Posek Hador, the arbiter of a generation, and had the final word on any issue of halakhic law – who wielded ultimate political power over the most influential section of Haredi Jewry since the mid-1990s. He bears the responsibility for stifling any internal debate on resolving the tensions between an insular and traditional community and the modern Israeli society within which it exists and refusing to come up with solutions to the challenges threatening the sustainability of the Haredi model in the 21st century.

He could have used this unique opportunity to prepare his followers for the inevitable clash with the outside world, but he preferred to stop the clocks and freeze them in time. Any attempt at modernizing the curricula for boys and girls was met with fierce opposition to and denunciation of those who sought to sully “the pure education.” Likewise programs for vocational training for the majority of young men who are not fit to spending a life studying ancient texts were blocked. One of his last public proclamations was against academic courses designed specifically for young Haredi men and women, and it is ironic that his death came at the height of the public debate over Haredi conscription to the Israel Defense Forces.

His legacy is an empty one. Thousands are already defying his orders by joining the special IDF units in which Haredi men both serve and learn valuable skills for civilian life, and the academic streams specially tailored for ultra-Orthodox needs are flourishing despite his prohibitions. His path of paralysis has served to slow down these inevitable developments, damning most of the next Haredi generation to poverty, but despite his dictates, they are beginning to evolved and adapt to modern life. A century from now, Rabbi Elyashiv will not be revered as a Torah giant, but as a reactionary figure by the few who remember him.
 

--- End quote ---

Yes, to a secular person or someone who doesn't believe that learning Torah is the be all and all of life, there is a point. G-d is providing these charedim with the means to support their lifestyles. How is he doing it? Through the welfare system. Pirkei Avos says that all our wealth is Hashem's anyways, and nothing is truly ours. We are just Hashem's tools. Thus, Hashem will ensure that everything goes according to His plan.

Tag-MehirTzedek:

--- Quote from: The One and Only Mo on July 20, 2012, 05:58:55 PM ---Yes, to a secular person or someone who doesn't believe that learning Torah is the be all and all of life, there is a point. G-d is providing these charedim with the means to support their lifestyles. How is he doing it? Through the welfare system. Pirkei Avos says that all our wealth is Hashem's anyways, and nothing is truly ours. We are just Hashem's tools. Thus, Hashem will ensure that everything goes according to His plan.

--- End quote ---

 Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
 Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
 This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
 Chapter 1 # 10
 "Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm

 Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.

muman613:

--- Quote from: Tag-MehirTzedek on July 20, 2012, 06:16:13 PM --- Welfare is for those who try but cannot succeed in work. Its not for purposefully not working and then asking for a handout + creating a situation where the Torah is disgraced because of that.
 Show me where it says what you did in Pirkei Avot.
 This is from Pirkei Avot, something very applicable to the situation.
 Chapter 1 # 10
 "Shemayah said: Love work; hate domination; and seek not undue intimacy with the government."
http://www.shechem.org/torah/avot.htm

 Anyway we do not want a situation of widespread poverty upon our people, especially the kids when they can be making some $.

--- End quote ---

Im not sure if Mo was referring to this perek of Pirkie Avot but it is applicable:

Pirkie Avot 6:9

http://blog.webyeshiva.org/avot/money-or-meaning



--- Quote ---R. Yossi the son of Kisma said: “I once encountered a man while traveling.  He greeted me and I returned his greetings. He said to me: ‘Rabbi, where are you from?’  I said to him: ‘I am from a great city of sages and scholars.’  He said to me: ‘Rabbi, would you like to dwell with us in our place?  I will give you a million dinars of gold, precious stones and pearls.’  I said to him: ‘If you were to give me all the silver, gold, precious stones and pearls in the world, I would not dwell anywhere but in a place of Torah. Indeed, so is written in the book of psalms by David the king of Israel: `I prefer the Torah of Your mouth over thousands in gold and silver’ (Tehillim 119:72). Furthermore, when a person passes from this world neither silver, nor gold, nor precious stones, nor pearls accompany him, only Torah and good deeds, as is stated (Mishlei 6:22): `When you go it will direct you, when you lie down it will watch over you, and when you awaken it shall be your speech.’ `When you go it will direct you’—in this world; `when you lie down it will watch over you’—in the grave; `and when you awaken it shall be our speech’—in the World To Come. Also it says (Haggai 2:8): `Mine is the silver and Mine is the gold, so says the Lord of Hosts.’’   (Avot 6:9)
--- End quote ---

The clash between the competing pursuits of material wealth and spiritual concerns remains a ubiquitous part of human life.  R. Yossi declined an offer of significant riches because he did not want to leave a location saturated with Torah.  According to Tifferet Yisrael, their exchange of greetings indicates that the fellow who made the offer came from a town with decency and moral behavior.  Thus, the opportunity for money came together with polite neighbors.  Nonetheless, R. Yossi turned down the chance since this town lacked the environment of Torah knowledge within which he thrived.

Why does R. Yossi prefer Torah to material bounty?  His first argument is of the “You can’t take it with you” variety.  Large bank accounts no longer help the deceased whereas the accumulated merits of mizvot do pass on the next world.  R. Yossi’s exposition upon the verse from Mishlei both echoes that point and also brings other arguments to the fore.  Statements about Torah’s impact in “the grave” and in “the World To Come” point to the enduring worth of Torah and good deeds as opposed to the ephemeral benefits of money.

According to this mishna’s reading of the earlier part of the verse, Mishlei instructs us about direction in this world received from involvement in Torah.   Torah provides a framework for ethical and spiritual striving often lacking when a person seeks different goals.  Indeed, we dare not limit the advantages of Torah study to its otherworldly compensation. In this world alone, one cannot compare a life of wealth with a life of spiritual questing.
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