Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
The verses cited by edu in devarim chapter 31 and 32 all refer to Moshe's punishment of not getting to enter Eretz Yisrael. This is of course due to sin. Already in last week's parsha which we read this morning (v'etchanan) this idea is mentioned and picked up in the commentaries. Overwhelmingly the commentaries associate the sin(s) of Moshe with his punishment of not going into the land, and this seems a very obvious slam dunk interpretation. Attaching death as his punishment requires a lot of twisting and turning, leaving aside the fact that no haredi or other scholar can be compared with Moshe rabenu. I just do not see it in the verses at all but it still wouldn't explain away the obvious here, even if you could by some forced stretch impose that reading on the verses as an alternative. The obvious I refer to is: edu, do you actually believe that Rav Eliashiv would have lived forever if Jews behaved better?
muman613:
I see your concern before I post this and I agree I do not compare any Rabbi in our generation to Moshe Rebbeinu... But this is a theoretical discussion concerning whether death of a tzadik is punishment for a sin...
Here is an expression of what I was explaining in the post I made above. From Ohr.edu....
http://ohr.edu/this_week/ask_the_rabbi/2774
--- Quote ---Perhaps this can help us understand your question regarding Moshe. Relative to Moshe's extremely lofty spiritual position, his becoming angry with the Jewish people, calling them "rebels" and deviating from G-d's command to speak to the rock by hitting it instead, was tantamount to disbelief in G-d and to chillul Hashem – a desecration of G-d's name. This is implied in the verse, "Because you did not believe in me, to sanctify me in the eyes of Israel, therefore you shall not bring them into the Land" (Num. 20:12). In fact, chillul Hashem is considered one of the gravest offences, and is so described by Rambam in his Laws of Teshuva. Even though Moshe surely did the highest form of teshuva m'ahava – repentance out of love for G-d, not fear of punishment — this apparently was not enough to fully atone for the (relative) severity of his act, and perhaps the decree that he be barred from entering the Land of Israel was needed for a complete atonement.
That being said, the words of Midrash Yalkut Shimoni (Parshat V'etchanan) are very illuminating. In discussing Moshe's 515 prayers to repeal the decree, the Midrash portrays in great detail the dialogue between Moshe and G-d in the prophet's plea to enter the Land. After hearing Moshe's very compelling arguments, G-d finally replies that either he'll have to die outside the land or the Jewish people will have to die. This enigmatic response may be explained as follows:
If Moshe and Aharon would enter the Land, the Temple they would build would be eternal. However, G-d saw that the Jewish people would eventually greatly sin and be liable for destruction. The destruction of the Temple was thus necessary as a means of arousing Jews to repent. Had it not been vulnerable to destruction, harsher measures against Jewry would have been required. For this reason Moshe was prevented from entering the Land.
According to this, Moshe's teshuva effected complete atonement for himself. Still, he was barred from entering Israel for the ultimate good of the Jewish people. When Moshe understood this, he made the ultimate sacrifice for the people he so loved and prayed no more to repeal the decree.
--- End quote ---
My understanding of all of this is that Moshe could have entered the land, he was not physically incapable of making the cross over to the Jordan, but because of what happened he was not destined to lead the Jews into the land.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 05, 2012, 04:02:24 AM ---Did you learn anything from todays Parasha?
--- End quote ---
Excuse me? You may need to go back and reread this thread because you demonstrate a misunderstanding of the positions being presented here.
--- Quote ---Moshe was not allowed to go into the land BECAUSE OF THE SIN of striking the rock, and not talking to it.
--- End quote ---
The nature of the sin and precisely what it was is heavily debated among the scholars. You have chosen one valid view of the sin.
Indeed, for his sin, whatever it was, he was not allowed into the land. I never once argued against that.
I DID argue against the idea that Moshe DIED because of sin. (Or that Hashem punished his sin w death rather than the punishment to not enter the land).
Please read carefully before jumping to attack me.
Also note the fact that you have not posted anything which contradicts me. At least not up until this point. Also note that nothing you posted thus far lends any support to edu's claim.
muman613:
KWRBT,
I am sorry if you feel I was attacking you personally. This is not my intention and if my words were not appropriate I ask your forgiveness.
But on this topic let us clarify our positions...
1) I believe that Edu and I are arguing that Moses did not die because of 'old age' or any physical issue with Moses body. We suggest {according to sources} that Moses died because of the combined sins of his striking the rock, and the sins of the people {Sin of Golden Calf, Sin of Spies, complaining, etc.}.
2) I suspect you are arguing against this and saying that because Moses was 120 that he was 'old' and it was natural for him to die at that time.
The primary source to prove he died because of sin comes from Parasha Pinchas which I will reproduce below.
Bamidbar 27:12-14
12. The Lord said to Moses, "Go up to this mount Abarim and look at the land that I have given to the children of Israel.
13. And when you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, just as Aaron your brother was gathered.
14. Because you disobeyed My command in the desert of Zin when the congregation quarreled, [when you were] to sanctify Me through the water before their eyes; these were the waters of dispute at Kadesh, in the desert of Zin.
There are many sources in the Talmud which explain some of this. I found this page from WebShas which discusses the Talmuds insights concerning the end of Moses life:
http://www.webshas.org/torah/bichtav/tanach/moshe.htm
Moses Striking the Rock [Merivah]
Moses wanting his sin to be recorded in the Torah: Yoma 86b
Pharaoh had the boys thrown in the river because his astrologers informed him that the Jews' redeemer would die by water. In fact, this prophecy referred to Moses's problem with the Waters of Merivah, when he hit the rock: Sotah 12b
The Last Year in the Desert
Moses's desire to set up the cities of refuge: Makkot 10a
Gd's promise to Moses that Moses would get to establish cities of refuge: Makkot 12b
Gd was exacting in punishing Moses because that is the way He deals with very righteous people: Sotah 13b
Gd told Moses, "You have enough [Rav Lach]," as a punishment for Moses having told Korach, "You have enough." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "You now have a master [Joshua]." Alternatively, "Rav Lach" meant "It is enough; don't make me appear too harsh": Sotah 13b
Why Moses wanted to make it into Israel: Sotah 14a
Moses's desire to fulfill the Mitzvot which may only be performed in Israel, and Gd's response: Sotah 14a
Moses climbed Mount Nebo (Har Nevo) on the day of his death in a single bound: Sotah 13b
Moses did not weaken physically toward death, but Gd sealed the gates of wisdom from him: Sotah 13b
On the last day of Moses's life, Gd took authority from him and gave it to Yehoshua, so that the two ruled on that day: Sotah 13b
The date of Moses's death: Megillah 13b; Kiddushin 38a; Sotah 12b
Moses received his full allotment of years, dying at the end of 120 years: Sotah 13b
Moses died with a "kiss" from Gd: Moed Katan 28a
Did Moses really die: Sotah 13b
muman613:
Here is a further explanation of Medrash Rabbah concerning the dialog between Hashem and Moshe before Moshe was gathered back to his people...
http://www.chabad.org/parshah/in-depth/default_cdo/aid/53120/jewish/In-Depth.htm
But G‑d was angry with me for your sakes (3:26)
G‑d said to Moses: You can't have it both ways. I have already nullified My decree and upheld yours. I said: "I shall destroy them" (when Israel worshipped the Golden Calf), and you said "forgive them"—and your desire prevailed. Now, if you wish that your desire, "let me cross over," should be upheld and My decree (that you not enter the land) be nullified, then you most retract your "forgive them"; if you wish "forgive them" to be upheld, then you must retract "let me cross over."
When Moses heard this, he proclaimed: May Moses die, and a hundred like him, and not a fingernail of one of them be harmed! . . .
When Moses approached death and the children of Israel did not appeal to G‑d on his behalf that he should enter the Land, Moses gathered them together and began to rebuke them. He said: One man saved 600,000, and 600,000 cannot save one man!
(Midrash Rabbah)
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