Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 05, 2012, 01:20:03 PM ---
The primary source to prove he died because of sin comes from Parasha Pinchas which I will reproduce below.
Bamidbar 27:12-14
--- End quote ---
You are confused and you haven't brought any proof to your claim.
Moshe explains to us himself in his own words that G-d punished him by nnot getting to enter the land, and he kept davening to be permitted until Hashem told him "enough" about this, you are not going in.
He was not begging to be kept alive.
I have already explained the Talmud supports the obvious position because it says moshe lived the full life of a righteous person dying on his birthday at age 120. You have no way to contradict that. In fact, you actually posted it (AGAIN!) in support of the view I am presenting.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 05, 2012, 01:20:03 PM ---
Bamidbar 27:12-14
...and...
Here is a further explanation of Medrash Rabbah
--- End quote ---
Muman, you quote and you quote and you quote, but either you don't bother to read it before you post it or you simply do not care that none of what you block quote and paste here lends any credence to your position!
Look, if it's your own personal conviction, fine, you can believe it all you want, but do not claim it is the position of chazal or the commentaries, or the Torah itself just because it's your own personal opinion only, and certainly don't do this and then quote from chazal and commentaries which simply do not say what you are saying. You present it as if it is "evidence" for your view or a "source" for it, when all I have to do is take the time to read through it and I see, it says nothing of the sort. So why do you waste my time to read through what is essentially spam (in that case) which doesn't give backing to your position at all but is simply noise?
Did YOU take the time to read through it before you posted it?
If you are going to quote from something, quote something that actually supports what you claim!
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 05, 2012, 02:09:10 PM ---
Tag,
The Pshat of these lines in Pinchas is that Hashem decreed that Moshe should die because of his sin.... Tell me you don't deny it...
--- End quote ---
So first you assume your own view must be "pshat" (which I think it clearly isn't if you have read the whole parsha, and many other parshiyot) and then you suggest that Tag is in "denial" for not agreeing to your concept which of course MUST BE the only way to read that verse.
And then you will say you didn't intend insult, right?
muman613:
KWRBT,
You are beating around the bush now.... It is clear that Hashem, in more than one place, told Moses he was going to die as a result of the sin.
Also there are two medrashim which I have brought which you completely ignore. You are entitled to believe what you want, but if you want to discuss this you should find some sources which back you up...
First of all in Medrash Rabbah:
--- Quote ---G‑d said to Moses: You can't have it both ways. I have already nullified My decree and upheld yours. I said: "I shall destroy them" (when Israel worshipped the Golden Calf), and you said "forgive them"—and your desire prevailed. Now, if you wish that your desire, "let me cross over," should be upheld and My decree (that you not enter the land) be nullified, then you most retract your "forgive them"; if you wish "forgive them" to be upheld, then you must retract "let me cross over."
When Moses heard this, he proclaimed: May Moses die, and a hundred like him, and not a fingernail of one of them be harmed! . . .
When Moses approached death and the children of Israel did not appeal to G‑d on his behalf that he should enter the Land, Moses gathered them together and began to rebuke them. He said: One man saved 600,000, and 600,000 cannot save one man!
(Midrash Rabbah)
--- End quote ---
Can't you see that it was either Moshe dying or the entire people dying? Maybe you discount this Medrash? It seems that Moses would rather die than have Hashem destroy the entire Jewish people. This implies that he could have lived if he agreed with Hashem on this...
It is obvious to me that when it says he will not go into the land that it implicitly implies that he will die in the desert. I don't understand how you separate the two events. Moses wanted to enter the land, and if he could not he wanted to die.
Again my involvement in this argument is to prove a single point. That the righteous are sometimes punished with death even when they could have lived longer. It seems to me because the simple reading says that Moses eyes were not dimmed, and he was able to climb the mountain in one leap, that Moses was quite physically strong and did not have to die. His death was because of the combined sin of the people, and the sin of chillul hashem when he struck the rock.
But again I suspect you will just attempt to look past the points I bring... But this is the nature of this forum...
muman613:
Excerpt from Sotah 13B
http://halakhah.com/sotah/sotah_13.html
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And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day.24 Why does the text state 'this day?' [The meaning is], This day are my days and years completed.25 Its purpose is to teach you that the Holy One, blessed be He, completes the years of the righteous from day to day, and from month to month; for it is written: The number of thy days I will fulfil.26 I can no more go out and come in24 — what means 'go out and come in'? If it is to be understood literally, behold it is written: And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died; his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated;27 it is also written: And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto mount Nebo;28 and it has been taught: Twelve steps were there, but Moses mounted them in one stride! — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: [It means] to 'go out and come in' with words of Torah, thus indicating that the gates of wisdom were closed against him.
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