Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
muman613:
One more thought along the lines of death for sin...
What was the punishment for Adam and Chava for eating the Fruit of the Tree of Good&Evil?
muman613:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2830/jewish/What-Is-Sin.htm
Like almost everything else, it depends on who you ask.
The Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni on Psalms 25) describes a sort of "panel discussion" in which this question is posed to four different authorities -- Wisdom, Prophecy, Torah and G-d -- each of whom gives a different definition of sin.
According to Wisdom sin is a harmful deed. According to Prophecy it is death. Torah sees it as folly. And G-d sees it as an opportunity.
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"Prophecy" takes this a step further. Sin is not only a harmful deed -- it is the ultimately harmful deed. Prophecy (which represents the apogee of man's endeavor to commune with G-d) defines "life" as connection with G-d. Sin--man's turning away from G-d--is a disruption of this connection. Hence, sin is death.
http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/parah.html
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Yechezkel's analogy suggests a direct corollary between sin and death. Apparently, the ultimate removal of sin is similar to the removal of the impurity of death.
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From Daf Yomi Shabbat 55
2) IS THERE DEATH WITHOUT SIN?
(a) (R. Ami): One does not die without Chet - "Ha'Nefesh ha'Choteis Hi Samus?";
1. One is not afflicted (Tosfos - severely) without Avon (intentional sin) - "U'Fokadti v'Shevet Pish'am uvi'Nga'im Avonam".
55b-------------55b
(b) Question (Beraisa #1): The angels asked Hash-m why he decreed death on Adam ha'Rishon. (Mahadurah Basra - many Mitzvos involve death, surely there would be death even had Adam not sinned - why is death attributed to his sin?)
1. Hash-m: I gave one easy Mitzvah to him, and he transgressed it!
2. The angels: Moshe and Aharon fulfilled the entire Torah, yet they died! (They thought that Hash-m answered why Adam died.)
3. Hash-m: "Mikreh Echad la'Tzadik vela'Rasha" (I decreed that all people will die. Indeed, Moshe and Aharon sinned at Mei Merivah, but this did not cause their death, it only forbade them to enter Eretz Yisrael.)
(c) Answer: R. Ami holds like the following Tana:
1. (Beraisa #2 - R. Shimon ben Elazar): Even Moshe and Aharon died on account of their sin - "Ya'an Lo He'emantem Bi" - had you trusted Me [to speak to the rock exactly as commanded; alternatively, had you done so, you would have elevated Benei Yisrael's belief in Me, and] you would not have to die now.
(d) Question (Beraisa #3): Four people died only on account of [Adam's sin through] the snake (Me'iri - their sins were so small, one cannot fathom that they should be judged for them) - Binyamin, Amram, Yishai, and David's son Kalev.
1. Question: It says "Avigayil Bas Nachash Achos Tzeruyah" - [this] Avigayil was the daughter of Yishai, not of Nachash!
2. Answer: Yishai is called Nachash to teach that he died only on account of the snake.
3. We have a tradition about the other three.
4. Question: Who is the Tana of Beraisa #3?
i. It is not Tana #1 - he holds that Moshe and Aharon also died without sin!
5. Answer: It is R. Shimon ben Elazar - even he holds that one can die without sin and [presumably, also] one may be punished without Avon.
(e) R. Ami is refuted.
PS: It does appear that your opinion is supported in this Daf Yomi on Shabbat 55, but there is another opinion...
muman613:
I will leave it at this.... There is support for the opinion that Moshe did not have to die because of sin. But I find the explanation more enlightening than any other explanation because otherwise it would seem cruel that Moses had to die.
muman613:
Here is an excerpt from the relevant portion of Tractate Shabbat 55:
http://halakhah.com/shabbath/shabbath_55.html
55A
R. Ammi said: There is no death without sin,27 and there is no suffering without iniquity. There is no death without sin, for it is written, The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son, the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him, etc.,28 There is no suffering without iniquity, for it is written, Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.29
55B
An objection is raised: The ministering angels asked the Holy One, blessed be He: 'Sovereign of the Universe! Why didst Thou impose the penalty of death upon Adam?' Said He to them, I gave him an easy command, yet he violated it.' 'But Moses and Aaron fulfilled the whole Torah,' they pursued — 'yet they died'. 'There is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good, etc.,1 He replied.2 — He maintains as the following Tanna. For it was taught: R. Simeon b. Eleazar said: Moses and Aaron too died through their sin, for it is said, Because ye believed not in me[...therefore ye shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them]:3 hence, had ye believed in Me, your time had not yet come to depart from the world.4
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 08, 2012, 12:05:23 AM ---KWRBT,
You are beating around the bush now.... It is clear that Hashem, in more than one place, told Moses he was going to die as a result of the sin.
--- End quote ---
No, that is not clear. It is clear that Hashem told him he will not. Enter the land but only see it. Just like Moshe informs us in many other places!
How am I beating around the bush? Is it a burning bush or a regular one?
--- Quote ---Also there are two medrashim which I have brought which you completely ignore. You are entitled to believe what you want, but if you want to discuss this you should find some sources which back you up...
First of all in Medrash Rabbah:
Can't you see that it was either Moshe dying or the entire people dying?
--- End quote ---
I see pretty well that the whole point of that midrash is that Moshe can't enter the land! And he says fine let me die without getting into the land first, so that klal yisrael doesn't have to get a decree against it.
The question is not whether Moshe will die or not die. Did you think he would live forever? The end of his life has come and it is his time to go. The Torah even tells us that. The question is, before he dies, will he get to walk into eretz Yisrael as he has been beseeching Hashem to allow him, or will he only get to see the land before he dies?
You misunderstand the midrash.
--- Quote ---It is obvious to me that when it says he will not go into the land that it implicitly implies that he will die in the desert.
--- End quote ---
Yes die in the desert rather than die in eretz yisrael, after having entered it.
--- Quote ---I don't understand how you separate the two events. Moses wanted to enter the land, and if he could not he wanted to die.
--- End quote ---
Um, no. He "wants to die" without entering the land in this midrash to teach you that had Hashem relented to his request it would have put more danger onto the Jews. (Other commentaries explain that later on when we would sin in eretz yisrael, we would have been destroyed instead of exiled had Moshe's request to enter been granted. The midrash is teaching you Moshe could only ask G-d for so much and could only get so much. He did not actually "ask to die," obviously that's not said explicitly in any verse. Its saying he had a choice when he was told to stop persisting in his request TO ENTER THE LAND.
--- Quote ---Again my involvement in this argument is to prove a single point. That the righteous are sometimes punished with death even when they could have lived longer.
--- End quote ---
Lived longer? The Talmud says he lived a full life. He had already had the "gates of wisdom closed to him" according to Talmud. Obviously that is something to do with the aging process. How much longer are you talking? A day? A week? What point is that exactly? IF HE WAS GOING TO LIVE ANY LONGER IT WAS ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO ENTER ERETZ YISRAEL. HIS PUNISHMENT WAS NOT "you live one week less" , his punishment was "you die before getting into the land"
--- Quote --- It seems to me because the simple reading says that Moses eyes were not dimmed,
--- End quote ---
Actually that's not a simple reading of anything. That's a homiletic interpretation added by a midrash. Do not confuse drash and pshat. Simple pshat of his eye not dimming would be that his eyesight didn't diminish. Unlike some other biblical heroes such as yaakov and his father yitzhak, both of whom lose their vision in their old age.
--- Quote --- and he was able to climb the mountain in one leap, that Moses was quite physically strong and did not have to die.
--- End quote ---
So if a person's mind deteriorates but his arms are still strong that means he is not aging? The same midrash you cite says his mind weakened!
--- Quote ---But again I suspect you will just attempt to look past the points I bring... But this is the nature of this forum...
--- End quote ---
I know you are but what am I?
I have addressed these points from the beginning you just fail to see that you have no help from what you cite.
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