Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
HaRav Elyashiv z'l and the Haredi Mind — Part 01
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 08, 2012, 12:18:10 AM ---http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2830/jewish/What-Is-Sin.htm
Like almost everything else, it depends on who you ask.
The Midrash (Yalkut Shimoni on Psalms 25) describes a sort of "panel discussion" in which this question is posed to four different authorities -- Wisdom, Prophecy, Torah and G-d -- each of whom gives a different definition of sin.
According to Wisdom sin is a harmful deed. According to Prophecy it is death. Torah sees it as folly. And G-d sees it as an opportunity.
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"Prophecy" takes this a step further. Sin is not only a harmful deed -- it is the ultimately harmful deed. Prophecy (which represents the apogee of man's endeavor to commune with G-d) defines "life" as connection with G-d. Sin--man's turning away from G-d--is a disruption of this connection. Hence, sin is death.
http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/parah.html
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Yechezkel's analogy suggests a direct corollary between sin and death. Apparently, the ultimate removal of sin is similar to the removal of the impurity of death.
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From Daf Yomi Shabbat 55
2) IS THERE DEATH WITHOUT SIN?
(a) (R. Ami): One does not die without Chet - "Ha'Nefesh ha'Choteis Hi Samus?";
1. One is not afflicted (Tosfos - severely) without Avon (intentional sin) - "U'Fokadti v'Shevet Pish'am uvi'Nga'im Avonam".
55b-------------55b
(b) Question (Beraisa #1): The angels asked Hash-m why he decreed death on Adam ha'Rishon. (Mahadurah Basra - many Mitzvos involve death, surely there would be death even had Adam not sinned - why is death attributed to his sin?)
1. Hash-m: I gave one easy Mitzvah to him, and he transgressed it!
2. The angels: Moshe and Aharon fulfilled the entire Torah, yet they died! (They thought that Hash-m answered why Adam died.)
3. Hash-m: "Mikreh Echad la'Tzadik vela'Rasha" (I decreed that all people will die. Indeed, Moshe and Aharon sinned at Mei Merivah, but this did not cause their death, it only forbade them to enter Eretz Yisrael.)
(c) Answer: R. Ami holds like the following Tana:
1. (Beraisa #2 - R. Shimon ben Elazar): Even Moshe and Aharon died on account of their sin - "Ya'an Lo He'emantem Bi" - had you trusted Me [to speak to the rock exactly as commanded; alternatively, had you done so, you would have elevated Benei Yisrael's belief in Me, and] you would not have to die now.
(d) Question (Beraisa #3): Four people died only on account of [Adam's sin through] the snake (Me'iri - their sins were so small, one cannot fathom that they should be judged for them) - Binyamin, Amram, Yishai, and David's son Kalev.
1. Question: It says "Avigayil Bas Nachash Achos Tzeruyah" - [this] Avigayil was the daughter of Yishai, not of Nachash!
2. Answer: Yishai is called Nachash to teach that he died only on account of the snake.
3. We have a tradition about the other three.
4. Question: Who is the Tana of Beraisa #3?
i. It is not Tana #1 - he holds that Moshe and Aharon also died without sin!
5. Answer: It is R. Shimon ben Elazar - even he holds that one can die without sin and [presumably, also] one may be punished without Avon.
(e) R. Ami is refuted.
PS: It does appear that your opinion is supported in this Daf Yomi on Shabbat 55, but there is another opinion...
--- End quote ---
Please reread what you have in bold.
Note that the first part agrees with me exactly. Because that is how one reads the verses. Its pretty clear. That's why they ask that question. Based on reading what the Torah says. The answers get creative to answer the kasiyas, that's how Talmud functions. Notice that some tannaim hold differently from your bolded answer. But now let's focus on your bolded answer.
Now focus on the answer - it still agrees with me. You would not have to die NOW. But you would still die eventually, only after getting into the land. (Maybe a week later? Maybe a month? We don't know but there is no implication that he would not have died!) Ask yourself, why did he put the word "now" in his reply, and it will all become clear to you.
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
--- Quote from: muman613 on August 08, 2012, 12:10:02 AM ---One more thought along the lines of death for sin...
What was the punishment for Adam and Chava for eating the Fruit of the Tree of Good&Evil?
--- End quote ---
Um but wouldn't you say according to that understanding that there is death in the world because of adam and chava. So in other words All people die because of Adam and chava. That only gives an ontological explanation for the reality we see - which is that old people die. And everyone sins in their lifetime. Still doesn't mean Moshe would have lived forever if not for the rock incident. The talmud sotah13b which you quote 100 times in this thread says he lived a full and complete life! 120 yrs from the day of his birth.
And even one Talmudic discussion you cite (one which I have never totally understood but also didn't look into in depth) cites a few individuals who died "without sin" in their lifetimes (of course if you look at the examples that could easily just mean that there is no sin recorded and presented by the Torah! Not necessairly that they didn't sin).
Kahane-Was-Right BT:
And in all this discussion you have failed to indicate how it is (or how it could be) that our sins (the sins of the Jewish people) caused Rabbi Eliyashiv zt"l to die.
Even where these sages homiletically render the verses, clearly for reasons Other Than obtaining pshat understanding, none of them claim that someone else's sins have caused Moshe to die without seeing the land (or as you are arguing, die early). So where exactly does the claim come from that our sins caused Rav Eliashiv to die?
Do you believe he would have lived til 120 if not for things we have done? If so, what are those things and why ? I don't think we can try to calculate G-d's decisions in matters of life and death such as this. And this is precisely what we should learn from some of those midrashim you cite. "No death without sin" is a concept - everyone sins, and death is in the world because of sins. It doesn't give you calculations and lifespans based on what sin person x did or didn't do.
What I see is that old people die, and Moshe's time had come, just as the Talmud Sotah 13b tells us. The question was, will he get to enter EY before he dies? G-d only allowed him to SEE IT before he died.
Its not anyone's place to speculate about sins of a deceased Torah sage, and for one thing I obviously don't think he had a "shortened lifespan" (wouldn't it be an insult to his honor even suggest or consider that?) for whatever deeds.
1. That's not what happened with Moshe.
2. He is not Moshe. And biblical times and figures were different (even lesser biblical figures had much more direct treatment than we do).
3. Old people die and after a full life, its quite the opposite of a shortened lifespan.
4. Certainly no connection to sins of other people and unfair to punish him for a sin by you or me or random Jewish guy.
5. Even if you disagree with ALL 4 other points, AND you think rabbi eliashiv never committed a sin in his life (who knows? Maybe!), still it makes no sense to think he would have lived forever because no one does.
edu:
According to Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 some time in the future, a person who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a mere youth. That is to say the average person will live much longer.
Tag-MehirTzedek:
--- Quote from: edu on August 09, 2012, 08:21:34 AM ---According to Yishayahu/Isaiah 65:20 some time in the future, a person who dies at the age of 100 will be considered a mere youth. That is to say the average person will live much longer.
--- End quote ---
That time has not yett come. When mentioning Rav Elyashiv's death and age of 102 not 1 person responds, woow what a young fellow.
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