Shalom

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

That's a real mind-bender.   You are saying "Judaism" existed before Jews did?   And pre-Jew Judaism was mystical.   Come on, now.

How did Noah know the flood was coming?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The Tanya is taking the Proverbs out of context because they are talking about "souls" which is not mentioned in the Proverbs verse.  In the beginning of the part from the first chapter of Tanya, it talks about every individual Jew whether they are good or wicked has a certain type of soul.  So this goes down to the individual and not just nations as a whole.

I believe that Tanya and the pre-existing beliefs and attitudes that led to its eventual creation by the tremendous scholar who authored it, were most likely influenced and motivated by the type of gentile the lubavitch sect directly experienced on a day-to-day and year-to-year basis.  And so naturally this group extrapolated this type of gentile to the entire gentile world because they didn't experience anything else.   Believe me, those days were not pretty and the sick european gentiles were absolute garbage who tormented the Jews constantly.  That's an undeniable fact.  And I believe that has a lot to do with the directional flow of the chabad philosophy. 

I'm not a tanya guy and I'm not praising or condemning it here, but I think that those who do condemn it or condemn some of the contents, are perhaps missing the bigger picture of how those beliefs came about and developed over time and what the chabad people were dealing with.    The tanya was not created in a vacuum, and historical circumstances certainly come to influence ways of thought and new types of thinking that originate in history.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

How did Noah know the flood was coming?

God spoke to him.    The definition of "Judaism" is not:  'Any time God speaks to man"

PROPHECY is "when God speaks to man."   Judaism is something else which can include prophecy within it.   It simply does not make sense to say Noah was practicing Judaism.   Especially considering the fact that he was a gentile!   (but even if we imagined that on some parallel universe he was a Jew, it still wouldn't make sense).

[muman613]

That's a real mind-bender.   You are saying "Judaism" existed before Jews did?   And pre-Jew Judaism was mystical.   Come on, now.

You have heard that the Torah was.used as a blueprint for creation... You also have heard that Abraham kept the entire Torah even before it was given at Sinai. Thus the spiritual aspect of Torah does not only exist from Maattan Torah.

[muman613]

For those not familiar with these concepts let me provide some examples:


http://ohr.edu/1290

Dear Rabbi,

Please give me a clue about how the Patriarchs found out the details of the Torah before it was given at Sinai.


Dear Mordechai,

In G-d’s promise to give the Land of Israel to Isaac and his offspring, G-d explained the reason is "Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and observed My safeguards, My commandments, My decrees, and My Torahs" (Gen. 26:5). Rashi explains that "My Torahs" (plural) refers to the fact that Abraham kept both the Written and Oral Torah; "My decrees" refers to laws that are not based on human logic; "My commandments" refers to laws dictated by human morals; and "My safeguards" indicates that Abraham upheld even Rabbinical enactments aimed at guarding Torah law.

Rabbi Chaim of Velozhin in Nefesh HaChaim explains that just as Mankind can reach scientific conclusions through intellectual investigation, so too can Mankind reach spiritual conclusions through spiritual contemplation. If a person is sensitive enough, it is possible to reach even the hidden, esoteric depths of the Torah. This is what Abraham did. Through probing the wonders and marvels of the world, Abraham built up an awareness of G-d that eventually led to a complete and absolute understanding of His will.

Rabbi Naftali Zvi Yehuda Berlin (referred to by the acronym "Natziv") adds a beautiful dimension to this idea. He writes that Sarah also arrived at this level of keeping the entire Torah, even before meeting Abraham. However, Sarah did so in a somewhat different way. While Abraham came to an absolute awareness of G-d through contemplation of nature, Sarah attained this awareness through introspection into her own soul. Sarah's sensitivity was so attuned that she used her own spiritual essence to come to an understanding of the mitzvot.

So, Abraham kept the Torah through the external wonders of nature and Sarah kept the Torah through the internal wonders of her soul. In a sense Abraham was keeping the Torah "from the outside in" and Sarah was keeping the Torah "from the inside out"! In this way they forged complementary paths that would serve as gateways for their offspring, as well as for Jews of all future generations, to find G-d and keep His Torah.

http://www.ravkooktorah.org/TOLDOT58.htm

Toldot: Abraham Kept Mitzvot

Why are practical mitzvot so central to Judaism? Why is it not enough just to believe in the Torah's central tenets and teachings?

When famine struck, Isaac considered leaving the Land of Israel. But G-d commanded Isaac to remain in Israel. He allayed his fears, promising him:

"I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars of the sky, and grant them all these lands.... Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My decrees, and My laws." (Gen. 26:4-5)

Abraham kept G-d's commandments?

Indeed, the Sages interpreted this verse literally. They wrote that the Patriarchs fulfilled the precepts of the Torah, even before their revelation at Sinai centuries later.

Fifth-century scholar Rav Ashi made an even more audacious claim. He asserted that Abraham even observed the mitzvah of eiruv tavshilin — a rabbinically-ordained ritual that enables one to prepare for the Sabbath when a holiday falls out on a Friday (Yoma 28b).

Observing Eiruv Tavshilin

A scholar once commented to Rav Kook that this Talmudic statement clearly cannot be taken at face value. How could Abraham know what the rabbinical courts would decree a thousand years in the future? The Sages must have intended to convey a subtler message: Abraham's philosophical mastery of the Torah was so complete, his grasp of the Torah's theoretical underpinnings so comprehensive, that it encompassed even the underlying rationales for future decrees.

Rav Kook, however, was not taken with this explanation. In his response, Rav Kook emphasized that the Torah's theoretical foundations cannot be safeguarded without practical mitzvot. It is impossible to truly internalize the Torah's philosophical teachings without concrete actions.

This is the fundamental weakness of religions that rely on faith alone. Without an emphasis on deeds, such religions retreat to the realm of the philosophical and the abstract. They abandon the material world, leaving it unredeemed. The Torah's focus on detailed mitzvot, on the other hand, reflects its intense involvement with the physical world.


Yaakov, our father, studied Torah for 14 years at the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever:

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http://www.torah.org/learning/legacy/5770/vayeitzei.html

Our Sages tells us he spent those fourteen years studying Torah in the yeshivah of Shem and Eber. Furthermore, they point out that the verses in this week's portion actually contain an allusion to this detour.

When Jacob spent the night in Bethel, he dreamed he saw a ladder rising into the heavens, and he saw angels descending and ascending. This spectacular prophetic vision, which revealed the pattern of Jewish history for thousands of years, was Jacob's initiation into his role as our third and final patriarch. The Torah prefaces this dream by telling us that Jacob "slept in that place."

Why is this necessary? If he was dreaming, then surely he must have been sleeping. Our Sages see in this an oblique reference to the missing fourteen years. When Jacob "slept in that place," it was the first time in a very long while that he actually lay down to sleep. As long as he had been in the yeshivah of Shem and Eber, however, he had studied without interruption, dozing off in his chair only when fatigue overcame him. For fourteen full years, he had studied so intensely that he had not known the taste of sleep, and only now, when he resumed his travels, did he presume to go to sleep.
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[Ephraim Ben Noach]

G-d spoke to him.    The definition of "Judaism" is not:  'Any time G-d speaks to man"

PROPHECY is "when G-d speaks to man."   Judaism is something else which can include prophecy within it.   It simply does not make sense to say Noah was practicing Judaism.   Especially considering the fact that he was a gentile!   (but even if we imagined that on some parallel universe he was a Jew, it still wouldn't make sense).

I understand he was not a Jew! But G-d spoke to him! Was he a mystic or a witch? Or just a nut job?

[muman613]

Dan,

You are entitled to your opinion. But what you state is obviously not the truth. You may find one or two fakakta so-called heretical rabbis who spout the kind of falsehood you are attempting to spread... But I can show you hundreds of Rabbis who train Jews of the highest calibre who would tell you you are going off the wrong path. But you will never listen to me because you have established yourself as an opponent of mine. But I am sure, as I am alive, that your version of Judaism WILL NEVER be accepted.

[muman613]

I'm not comparing Judaism to other religions, I'm just comparing various twists on Judaism.

No, you have been besmirching normative Orthodox Judaism as taught at most Yeshivas and Synagogues.

BUT Acher Metzorah knows better....

[muman613]

Ive had enough of this foolishness... I am just surprised that there are not more real Jews here to stand up for our beliefs. Sometimes I wonder if I have stumbled on Psuedo-Noachide Task Force by mistake.

Imagine if Rabbi Kahane stumbled into this thread. How great would the response be against this kind of insult against our mystical tradition?

[muman613]

Most in the western world perhaps, but not all, and mysticism is not taught by the Yemenite communities.  Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true.  Just as in the days of Elijah there were very few Jews who followed Elijah and most combined Baal worship with Judaism, there is a similar case today.  People are waking up to this and that is why rabbis like Rabbi Bar-Hayim are out there saying the same things about the Zohar and certain mystical doctrines.  When I first joined this forum I was shut down for even mentioning a hint of this message, and was once actually banned temporarily.  But now more people are starting to take a rational approach to Judaism, and I believe this must happen as a precursor to the Mashiach, that more and more Jews will look at Judaism not only as religious doctrines to be played around with in the brain but also as a true, practical, moral, reasonable lifestyle in line with the faith and lives of their forefathers.

In my opinion you should be banned.... But lets just keep out of each others way, ok... It is odd you only selectively believe those things your 'rational' mind tells you to believe. While the entire enterprise of Emmunah and Bitachon are based on non-rational reasons. Maybe you can explain some of those mystical Talmud portions for us... Then again, please don't.... Some topics non-Jews are not permitted to learn.

What chutzpah for an am-haaretz to make such comments... Judaism is just fine without your innovations... We have believed in the coming of Moshiach for 1000s of years. Also why do you believe in MOshiach? He is not mentioned ANYWHERE in the Torah, and only alluded to in Prophets... Thats a rhetorical question... Don't answer it...

The way to bring Moshiach was and always will be, Torah and Mitzvot....

[Zelhar]

You can see there are stories, agadtot in the Gmara that the Tanaim and Amoraim, of sages practicing magic, and there is discussion about mystical world of demons and angels and magical creatures.

So, you can't say the Kabbalah is based on nothing from Judaism. But I think that while the Gmara simply uses sometimes these agadtot as example and allegory to halachic principles, Kabbalah has become for some a source of ruling halacha which is wrong, Jews are not supposed to learn halacha from external sources let alone from kookoo ones.

[Zelhar]

However it seems there is a tradition of magic and mysticism since before the exile. So, it seems that this sort of things were at least tolerated by the Sanhedrin.

[Zelhar]

I also think that Judaism would be better off without any of that kabbalah magic and witchcraft, especially of the recent generation when instead of being a  hidden secrete it became popular and open. But the thing that we really should avoid is internal wars over this. And I don't think you can get a single lubavitcher to abandon the tanya and the mysticism by attacking his belief with ridicule and contempt, it will only create strife.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I want to make clear to some of you , that I’m not psychic and not a prophet! Or a witch! I don’t know if some of you  think this from some of my posts. A lot of the time I am joking around! If some of you wonder how I can guess things its because I pay  attention to what the trolls say, and how they say it!

I would like to add, modern day Kabbalah has been turned in to a joke! It should be kept a secret! These people use it for there own personal gain! And it does not take much to use it for evil!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Dan, you are a neo-phyte and you attempt to speak like a Talmid Chocham.... I really have little respect for such an inflated ego. You can follow whatever cochamamie rabbi you like but just don't go around claiming he is THE ONLY truth....

I was reading this thread last night and then when I went to go look up neophyte in the dictionary, I actually fell asleep.   A day later, I have a better vocabulary.

You are not even a Noachide and already you have some screwed-up beliefs. Thank G-d you are not a Jew!

These are really awful things to say about someone.  How can you, without basis, say "you are not even a Noahide" to a non-Jew?   Is that not evil speech?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You have heard that the Torah was.used as a blueprint for creation... 

Of course I've "heard" this.   The Torah.   Not Judaism.

You made up something new here.
(by saying Judaism existed before Jews and was a religion of mysticism... or something).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

For those not familiar with these concepts let me provide some examples:

Here we go again.

You are providing "details" of things which do not support what YOU CLAIMED.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I understand he was not a Jew! But G-d spoke to him! Was he a mystic or a witch? Or just a nut job?

That's a false dichotomy.   Rambam is the ultimate rationalist in Jewish history, he is the antithesis of a mystic, and he holds of the concept of prophecy.

Learn Moreh Nevuchim and get back to me.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In my mind, the historical circumstances don't excuse passing off something like this as mystical "secret knowledge" that was handed down from time immemorial. 

Lol, that's what almost all kabbalah/chassidus passes itself off as.  But you know what?  Some Torah commentaries too.  They make new interpretations of existing verses and then they say that was there the whole time, it has just been 'revealed' now.   That's a valid path of textual scholarship.  It's referred to as Biur.   It's NOT Perush.

When they say it's "from sinai" or "secret knowledge" what they mean in this context (or what a rational person should understand them as saying) is:  "Our interpretation is the key one, it has always been right there in the text but it took our brand of chassidus/philosophy to tease it out of the text and realize it was there, and it fits within our overarching system of thought perfectly." 

Chabad makes a lot of outlandish claims on their Torah learning - for instance I saw a video where the Lubavitcher rebbe claimed that due to chabad chassidus we "finally understand" the para aduma.   At first I was shocked, but then I applied the above dictum and I can live with that very easily - I can choose to disagree or stick to other interpretations that have come over the ages from Torah scholars.
 

What you're saying is likely the case, but then that means the doctrine was never revelation preserved within Judaism but a response to something that is outside Judaism.  Their circumstances may be understandable but that doesn't mean their resulting doctrines should be seen as true or binding on all Jews.

Like almost all hashkafic discussions (with some extreme exceptions such as belief in God's unity and some of the 13 principles elucidated by the Rambam), it's of course not necessarily true, and definitely not binding on all Jews.    A loyal righteous Jew could live out a long life of many years and devote himself to Torah study and mitzvot, and if he never picked up or viewed a single page of Tanya in his lifetime, it wouldn't take anything away from him.  That's true of many texts, there are so many out there you cannot possibly be bound to follow them all.  And there is a clear difference between halacha and hashkafa, between what is required to follow (Jewish law) and what is intellectual/philosophical pursuits where people have freedom of thought.  Of course I understand Tanya can be enriching for people but that requires a pretty deep expertise in all other areas of Jewish texts and thought, and only then can one deal properly with some of the deep kabalah in it.   And mass marketing Tanya is probably destructive IMO.   But that's a side point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I'd like to add that this reminds me of the Nation of Islam.  Because of black slavery, some blacks came up with the idea that all white people were made in a test tube by the evil scientist Yakub.  Ok so maybe there was white persecution of blacks in history but that doesn't mean you pass off black supremacy as truth ordained by G-d.

Except that chabad was using existing holy texts and reading their interpretation into the existing texts.   It's very different from Dr. yakub.   Of course, some of the texts they used (ie, zohar) have questionable origins to begin with, so I'm modeh bemiktzas to you a little bit on this point.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Most in the western world perhaps, but not all, and mysticism is not taught by the Yemenite communities.  Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it true.  Just as in the days of Elijah there were very few Jews who followed Elijah and most combined Baal worship with Judaism, there is a similar case today.  People are waking up to this and that is why rabbis like Rabbi Bar-Hayim are out there saying the same things about the Zohar and certain mystical doctrines.  When I first joined this forum I was shut down for even mentioning a hint of this message, and was once actually banned temporarily.  But now more people are starting to take a rational approach to Judaism, and I believe this must happen as a precursor to the Mashiach, that more and more Jews will look at Judaism not only as religious doctrines to be played around with in the brain but also as a true, practical, moral, reasonable lifestyle in line with the faith and lives of their forefathers.

It could very well be that you are right.

And just as I have freedom of thought to think you are correct (because I do agree with your line of thought here in this post), Muman has freedom of thought to think you are incorrect, and that's fine.   I think freedom of thought is sometimes a hard concept for people to accept especially religious people.  But Muman, you should not take offense at the above suggestions just because you are more mystically inclined!  Obviously, you think otherwise and you think people who think along the lines of Dan and I, that our ideas will never 'catch on' and will not become more popular.  Ok, so what's the harm?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Jewish rationalism takes as axiomatic that there is a G-d and that he spoke through the prophets.  The rationalism refers to the approach by which we interpret what they said and apply it to our lives.  In other words, if I believe G-d spoke to Moses, I want to use reason to determine what G-d most likely wanted me to take from that revelation.  I would not make up a whole new set of dogmas to help understand it, I'd try to look at it logically.  Since I want to be as sure as possible about the truth of that revelation, I would not want later innovations to get in the way of understanding the true intent of that revelation.

On the other hand, you can never really get the "true intent" (TM) though.   Even perush doesn't quite do the job because we have not written down Moshe's original perush in written form word for word as he gave it in the desert and during the travels of the Jews.

This was most likely preserved orally which by its very nature is a more liquid and less formalized format, and ancient aspects of the Talmud alluding to it are mostly legal in nature rather than interpretive.  (actually even the ancient interpretive methods are employed for legal conclusions moreso than hashkafa or philosophical interpretations!)   There's much more to say on this topic but hopefully I made the point I was trying to bring up.   

Perush is still only an approximation no matter how much we try to use logic, and even our logic will change as we learn more about the world and find out new things, so there is always a bit of "biur" influence in what we say about certain verses.  We can't help but to inform our opinion based on other knowledge we have, and which previous generations might not have had.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

You can see there are stories, agadtot in the Gmara that the Tanaim and Amoraim, of sages practicing magic, and there is discussion about mystical world of demons and angels and magical creatures.

You do raise an important point.

On the other hand, the Rambam says point blank that demons do not exist.  I tend to agree with him on that.   So in general, I don't pay much attention to statements about demons when they come up in my learning.

Others I'm sure feel differently on that subject.

[muman613]

Of course I've "heard" this.   The Torah.   Not Judaism.

You made up something new here.
(by saying Judaism existed before Jews and was a religion of mysticism... or something).

I didn't say that Judaism existed before Abraham... But my point was that the idea of the Torah existing for 2000 years before creation comes from the Talmud, not a mystical source...

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I have no problem with people who disagree with mysticism.... My problem is in the insulting comparisons of Chassidic Judaism to Nation of Islam and Black Hebros. He has repeatedly said these insults in a way which was not considerate, and I became defensive.

I apologize for some of what I said, but I do believe that Dan could say things in a more considerate manner...