Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 
 My reply
 
 1)Writing to a dead Rebbe does not sound Jewish to me
 2) Got banned for 1
 3) he replied (In link)
 
 4) What my reply would be (and did send him email with this reply as well)

No as well. But with a person it is different and borderline Avoda Zara. The best way is to address G-D directly and not even write a note into the wall. Secondly even the people who do that write the note to G-D and not to a person. In this case you are saying to write a note to a dead person (any person Rabbi, or Rebbe including) is wrong because we are supposed to pray to and worship only the 1 and only G-D and no intermediaries.

[muman613]

You are correct. I have never heard of anyone claiming that we are supposed to pray through intermediaries. I do not know the rabbi you posted here so I cannot comment on his response or his outlook. But I find it hard to believe that anyone who claims to be a Jewish Rabbi would suggest that we pray to a man.

The concept of the Tzadik is a complex one and often many people misunderstand what it going on. The Torah does express the concept that some of our fore-bearers were righteous and if we prayed at their kever we would benefit in the merit of the tzadik, and our prayers would be received with the tzadiks merits. I can understand this, and I can understand how an observer who was not fully aware of this could misunderstand the practice.

Here is an explanation from Torah.org @ http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5760/shlach.html


VISITING GRAVES of TZADDIKIM: HOW and WHY?

The ancient minhag yisrael of visiting and davening at graves of tzaddikim during times of tribulation has many sources in Talmudic literature(1). Indeed, Shulchan Aruch records in several places that it is appropriate to do so on certain public fast days in general(2) and on Tishah B'av after midday in particular(3). Erev Rosh ha-Shanah, too, is a day when it has become customary to visit graves(4). But what is the reason for this? How does it help us(5)?

The Talmud(6) cites two explanations: 1) To serve as a reminder of man's immortality so that one repent while he still can; 2) To ask the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf. [A practical difference between these two reasons, says the Talmud, is whether or not it is appropriate to visit graves of non-Jews [when there are no Jewish graves near by] since even a non-Jew's grave reminds man of his immortality. Nowadays, however, when non-Jews mark their graves with religious symbols, it is no longer appropriate to visit non-Jewish graves even if there are no Jewish graves in the area(7).]

The second reason quoted in the Talmud - to ask the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf - demands clarification. Many people assume that this means that we are allowed to pray to the dead to ask them to help us. This is a serious mistake and strictly forbidden. One who prays with this intent transgresses the Biblical(8) command of "You shall not recognize the gods of others in my presence"(9). It may also be a violation of the Biblical(10) command against "one who consults the dead"(11).

If so, what does the Talmud mean when it says that we "ask the dead to beg for mercy on our behalf"? We find two schools of thought concerning this matter:

Some(12) hold that it means that it is permitted to speak directly to the dead to ask them to daven to Hashem on our behalf. This is similar to the prayers that we find throughout Selichos which are addressed to the malachim. Although the malachim - who are merely G-d's messengers - do not posses the ability to do anything of their own accord, still we may ask them to "deliver" our prayers to Hashem. So, too, it is permitted to address the dead directly and ask them to intercede on our behalf at the heavenly throne.

Others(13) strongly disagree and maintain that this, too, is strictly forbidden. In their opinion, addressing a dead person is a violation of "consulting the dead". What the Talmud means by "asking the dead to pray for mercy on our behalf" is that we daven directly to Hashem that in the merit of the dead He should have mercy on us. We visit the graves only to remind Hashem of the merits of the holy tazddikim who are interred there.

The practical halachah is as follows. Most of the classical poskim(14) rule in accordance with the second view. Mishnah Berurah(15) also clearly writes: We visit graves because a cemetery where tzaddikim are interred is a place where prayers are more readily answered. But one should not place his trust in the dead. He should just ask Hashem to have mercy on him in the merit of the tzaddikim who are interred here.

But other poskim rule that it is permitted to talk to the dead [or to angels] to intercede on our behalf. In a lengthy responsum, Minchas Elazar(16) proves from a host of sources throughout the Talmud and Zohar that not only is this permitted but it is a mitzvah to do so.

But as we said before, all opinions - without exception - agree that it is strictly forbidden to daven directly to a dead person [or to angel] so that they should help us. The most that is permitted [according to the lenient views] is to ask them to act as our emissaries to Hashem, so that Hashem will look favorably and mercifully upon us.

THE VISIT: PROPER CONDUCT

Upon entering a cemetery, the blessing of Asher yatzar eschem badin is recited(17). The full text is found in many siddurim. This blessing is recited only once within any thirty day period(18).

Before visiting at a grave, one should wash his hands(19).

Upon reaching the grave, one should place his left hand on the marker(20).

It is forbidden, though, to lean on it(21).

Within four amos [7-8 feet] of a grave(22):

The tzitzis strings should be concealed(23).

Levity, eating, drinking, greeting a friend or engaging in business is prohibited(24).

Learning, davening or reciting a blessing is prohibited(25). Many poskim, however, hold that it is permitted to recite Tehillim(26) or the burial Kaddish(27).

One should be careful not to step on any grave(28).

Before taking leave of a grave it is customary to put a stone or some grass on the marker(29).

The same grave should not be visited twice in one day(30).

Upon leaving the cemetery, it is customary to take some soil and grass from the ground and throw it over one's shoulder(31). There are many different reasons for this custom. On Shabbos, Yom Tov and Chol ha-Moed this may not be done(32).

After leaving a cemetery and before entering one's home(33) or another person's home(34), one should wash his hands three times from a vessel, alternating between the right and left hands(35). There are different customs concerning the method of washing(36): The water should drain into the ground and not collect in a puddle. After washing, any water that remains in the vessel is poured out. The vessel is turned upside down and placed on the ground, not handed to the next person(37). Some let their hands air dry and do not use a towel(38). Some wash their face as well(39).


FOOTNOTES

1 Yosef cried at his mother's grave before going to Egypt (Sefer ha-Yashar); Before being exiled, the Jewish people wept at Kever Rochel (Rashi, Vayechi 48:7); Kalev prayed at Meoras ha-Machpeilah before confronting the meraglim (Sotah 34b). See also Ta'anis 23b.

2 O.C. 579:3.

3 Rama O.C. 559:10.

4 Rama O.C. 581:4. Some go on Erev Yom Kippur as well (Rama O.C. 605:1) while others oppose going on that day; Elef ha-Magen 605:39 quoting Ya'avetz; Divrei Yoel 99:4.

5 Our discussion focuses on visiting graves on fast days and at other times of strife. Do not confuse this with the custom of visiting graves of parents and other relatives (on their yahrzeits and other occasions) whose primary purpose is to elevate the soul of the deceased and to give it "pleasure".

6 Ta'anis 16a.

7 Mishnah Berurah 579:14. See also Kaf ha-Chayim 559:81.

8 Shemos 20:3.

9 Sefer ha-Ikarim, mamar 2, quoted in Gesher ha-Chayim 2:26.

10 Shoftim 18:11.

11 Eliyohu Rabbah 581:4.

12 See Shalah (quoted by Elef ha-Magen 581:113), Pri Megadim O.C. 581:16 and M'haram Shick O.C. 293.

13 The source for this view among the Rishonim is Teshuvos R' Chaim Paltiel (quoted by the Bach and Shach Y.D. 179:15) and Maharil, Hilchos Ta'anis, (quoted by Be'er Heitev O.C. 581:17).

14 Including the Be'er Heitev, Chayei Adam, Mateh Efrayim and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.

15 581:27.

16 1:68. See also Gesher ha-Chayim 2:26 and Minchas Yitzchak 8:53.

17 O.C. 224:12. This blessing is recited only at a burial plot that contains at least two graves.

18 Mishnah Berurah 224:17.

19 Mishnah Berurah 4:42.

20 Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 128:13. See there also for the text that should be recited at that time.

21 Shach Y.D. 363:3.

22 Note that according to the Arizal (quoted by Mishnah Berurah 559:41) one should never go within four amos of a grave [except at interment]. In Igeres ha-Gra he writes that one should never enter a cemetery at all, and especially not women. [It is commonly accepted that a woman who is a niddah does not go to a cemetery at all (Mishnah Berurah 88:7). Under extenuating circumstances a rav should be consulted; see Beis Baruch on Chayei Adam 3:38.]

23 Mishnah Berurah 23:3. Tefillin, too, must be concealed.

24 Y.D. 368:1; Rama Y.D. 343:2.

25 Y.D. 367:3; 368:1.

26 Birkei Yosef Y.D. 344:17.

27 Gesher ha-Chayim 1:16-4.

28 Taz Y.D. 363:1.

29 Be'er Heitev O.C. 224:8.

30 Mishnah Berurah 581:27.

31 Y.D. 376:4. Some do this only after an interment.

32 O.C. 547:12.

33 Kaf ha-Chayim 4:80.

34 Mishnah Berurah 4:43. It is permitted, however, to enter a shul or another public place before washing; Harav M. Feinstein (Moadei Yeshurun, pg. 58).

35 Mishnah Berurah 4:39.

36 Some of these customs do not have an halachic source; they are based on Cabalistic writings and customs.

37 R' Akiva Eiger (Y.D. 376:4). See Zichron Meir, pg. 450.

38 Several poskim write that this does not apply during the cold winter month when the hands will become chapped; see Kaf ha-Chayim 4:78.

39 Mishnah Berurah 4:42.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Deviant Jews – Praying to the Dead
 
Moshe Ben-Chaim
 
Reader: By the grace of G-d. Shalom u’Brocha! Perhaps you have no obligation to believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe or the Besht were prophets, but those who witnessed their prophecies and miracles have such an obligation. Brocha ve’hatzlocha!  Ariel
 
Mesora: First off, let me offer you a sampling of reality regarding the Rebbe: a close friend went to the Rebbe and asked him a question about the condition of her sick relative. The Rebbe told her that her relative would live, but she died. The Rebbe was wrong. All humans are bereft of absolute knowledge, and of future events.
 
Furthermore, to suggest the Rebbe, the Besht or anyone is a prophet, never having produced the Torah’s required proofs of prophecy; you display a severe lack of adherence to the Torah, which destroys Torah. For you will most certainly follow your self-proclamation of their prophecy with the view that “all they said is Torah.”  Suggesting man is infallible and is always speaking “prophetic truths” leads many astray. These men were never proven as prophets, so your claim exposes you as a very poor judge of Torah principles. Based on God’s words, we do not accept what an unproven prophet speaks, lest he mislead Jews from God. So until a man produces the phenomenon required by Torah to be a prophet, he is not considered one. You seem to be living in a fantasy world, simply to maintain your idols as leaders of “holy” status. Be mindful: when Moses died, the Jews accepted his death. They did not say he was returning. So why do you place your Rebbe higher than Moses?
 
I visited your website “www.kingmessiah.com” where under a picture of the most recent Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, you write, “The Lubavitcher Rebbe - King Messiah may he live for ever”. You feel the Rebbe is Moshiach, but he never satisfied any requirements that he might be considered the messiah. Your credibility as a voice of Torah is thereby completely stripped from you. But the most disgusting element of your website is where you encourage others to violate a Torah prohibition of consulting the dead, where you write, “Write to the Rebbe and Behold Miracles.” You openly tell Jews they may consult the dead, and that they will receive miracles. You are no different than a devout Christian waiting for Jesus to perform miracles from HIS grave. You do not practice Judaism, but idolatry. We just celebrated our liberation from the idolatrous, Egyptian culture, but you intend to return the Jews to the Egyptians’ primitivism.
 
In contrast, what is accurate Torah? What does God say? God tells us “[do not] inquire of the dead. For it is an abomination to God, all who do such things, and on account of these abominations, Hashem your God wiped them out from before you.” (Deut. 18:11,12) God also says, “do not lie” (Lev. 19:11) but you violate this too, and lie by telling others they may talk to the dead. Not only can the dead not hear our words, they cannot do anything. They know nothing, as King Solomon said, “for the dead know nothing.” (Ecclesiastes, 9:5) This is why God prohibited this action, for it is useless, false, and breeds hope in that which cannot be. Your views cause many to become distressed.
 
You suggest that a minority, which claims to have seen a miracle, may be believed, such as with regards to the Rebbe or the Besht. If so, may I believe anyone today who says he saw someone perform a miracle? Perhaps someone today, I will claim, outperformed the supposed miracles of the Besht and your Rebbe. According to your view, you must allow me to believe this new miracle worker has surpassed the Besht and your Rebbe. Let us say this new miracle worker, I claim, outperformed Moshe Rabbeinu. Again, you must defend your position that I must be right in following this new miracle worker. According to you, I must then be allowed to believe a Christian, who believes he saw Jesus do a miracle, or a Muslim, that Mohammed is a true prophet. You see, your opinion allows anyone to attain a status of a prophet. But this is not Judaism. You are following your devotion to the Besht and the Rebbe and fake stories, and not a devotion to truth and Torah. As a Rabbi once said, you are attached “man”, not God.
 
God created the event of Har Sinai – precisely in the eyes of ALL Jews – that such ‘mass witnesses’ be the singular proof of His will and selection of the Jews, and no others. But your opinion negates the need for this mass event of Sinai, as you suggest, one may believe miracles, even with few “witnesses”.
 
What is the Torah’s position? It is this: we must deny all stories of the Besht’s and the Rebbe’s miracles – of anyone’s miracles – (Jew or gentile) and follow what God intended through His miracles at Sinai: we are to follow only that which is “comprehensively proven in front of masses”. This is the story God wishes all mankind to follow, and to abandon all other impostors. Only such a phenomenon removes all possibility of fabrication and ignorance. And when fabrication and ignorance do not enter a story, the story must be true, as there is no other possibility that a massively attended event, communicated throughout history, can be false. When all possibilities of falsehood have been removed the story must be true. Regarding Sinai, all possibilities have been removed: fabrication is refuted, as masses cannot all share one common motive to lie. Ignorance is refuted, as the event was simple in nature: all know what fire is, and what mountains are. Thus, regarding Mount Sinai’s fiery revelation, there is no possibility that this event was false. It must have occurred. But regarding other stories of reported miracles, if there are no masses, we know that the story may have been fabricated. This applies to your stories of the Rebbe and the Besht performing miracles. God does not demand that we accept any story some religious Jew reports, be he a Rabbi or less. It is precisely because God desires we live based on proof, that He orchestrated Sinai: an event, which cannot be shown to be false.
 
There is no excuse for your blatant Torah violation, as you entice Jews to violate idolatry, the prohibition of “consulting the dead”. It is essential that others condemn the views of such factions who freely malign God’s Torah and cause Jews to violate not merely small sins, but sins that God refers to as “abominations”.

[muman613]

Tag,

What you posted is a straw man argument, in my opinion. Who is claiming that the Rebbe was a prophet? Who is claiming he is a miracle worker? Who is claiming that we should pray to him? I have never seen such things, nor do I understand who the writer of the piece you posted is addressing.

As I posted above, there is a Torah precedant which says that one may pray at the grave of a tzadik, in the merit of the Tzadik. That was your original comment. What you just posted has no connection to this question. What this piece you just posted states is the obvious.

But why post it? Who is saying that we are supposed to pray to the dead? Could you please show that these ideas are expressed anywhere?

I also disagree with the idea that a miracle can only happen if it is before all of Israel. We all experience miracles {as I have} which pertain to us personally. Just because a miracle was not seen by all of Israel doesn't mean it did not happen. There are many miracles in the Torah which were not witnessed by many people. For instance it is said that the fact that Sarah had Yitzak was a miracle, because she was barren and did not even have the biological ability to bear children, yet she had Yitzak. The Torah also doesn't mention the event when Abraham was thrown into the fiery furnce, yet the story is related in the midrash and was surely a miracle yet not many people witnessed it.

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5768/toldos.html

Avraham Avinu wanted to sanctify the Name of G-d (Kiddush Hashem) and publicize the great miracle that G-d did for him. Avraham made this big celebration for just that purpose, but the cynics were sitting there having a field day. They joked that Yitzchak could not possibly be Avraham's child. Sarah must have become pregnant from Avimelech. We know how it goes: A roll of the eyes, a twist of the n ose, a mocking smile.

In truth, this cynicism was illogical. They were saying that "Sarah was pregnant from Avimelech" because he could not possibly be Avraham's child. The wonder here wasn't that Avraham had fathered a child. Avraham had already fathered a son from Hagar! The wonder was that Sarah, barren all her life, indeed conceived after she reached the age of ninety!

What then was the nature of this cynicism? Why did G-d respond in such a miraculous fashion to counteract this patently false type of mocking?

The point is that cynicism (leitzanus) has exactly this power. Cynicism does not need to be precise or accurate. The effect of a "one-liner" is basically that of a pin that, in a moment, bursts the balloon. The "press" will write it up. The fact that anyone with intelligence who thinks about this for 30 seconds will recognize it as nonsense is irrelevant. The damage has already been done. Such is the power of leitzanus.

Could you please show me that there are those who suggest we should pray to the dead? I have never seen these people..

[muman613]

Another thing the writer of that piece neglects to account for is that we celebrate another miracle, the miracle of Chanuka... But according to the Talmud there is a question as to what the miracle of Channukah was. Was it the fact that the oil burned eight days, or was it the war? In the case of the Candles , which most conclude was the reason we celebrate Chanukah, was not a miracle that all of Israel witnessed. It is a miracle which we were told about by the sages. Thus the premise of the Moshe Ben-Chaim seems to evaporate. Here a miracle which all of Israel did not witness is celebrated every year. Are we to conclude that the sages of the Talmud too were wicked?

[muman613]

There is also a special Bracha which we say when we witness a personal miracle:


http://www.torah.org/learning/integrity/menorah_brachos.html

Grabbing the Moment

Every night of Chanuka we sing the piyut Maoz Tzur, which mentions the principal redemptions throughout the history of the Jewish people. It is clear why we specify Chanuka, for that is the holiday that we are currently experiencing, but why do we mention all of the other periods?

We have a similar situation when one comes to a place where a personal miracle occured. He recites the bracha, "Blessed is He Who made a miracle for me in this place." If he had a number of miracles transpire, he should add "in this place and this place ..." (Shulchan Aruch 218:4-5). If the main bracha is for the miracle that happened at the place that he is actually looking at, why must one mention all the other miracles that happened to him?

The same question can be asked with regard to Birkas Hamazon. Why isn't it enough to thank Hashem for the food and sustenance that He has given us, which has occasioned our gratitude at this moment? Why must we also express our gratitude for Torah and Eretz Yisrael as well?

Our Sages understood that when a person reaches a state of inspiration about one of Hashem's miracles, he should not let this opportunity slip through his fingers. Rather he should use this valuable moment in order to thank Hashem for all of the kindness that he has done for him (Rav Yoel Shwartz as cited in Mizmor LeSoda, p. 40-41). After thanking Him for the entire gamut of Jewish history, he will see clearly that Hashem's Hand is the one and only force guiding it, and he will realize that the same is true about his personal life. This will bring tremendous closeness to his Creator.

Through the recitation of the extra tefillos and brachos of Chanuka, may we all be inspired to recognize Hashem's glory and splendor at every moment and be motivated to serve Him with a fresh surge of inspiration during the rest of the year.

[muman613]

Read Sotah 34B:

And they went up by the South and he came unto Hebron16  — it should have read 'and they came'! — Raba said: It teaches that Caleb held aloof from the plan of the spies and went and prostrated himself upon the graves of the patriarchs, saying to them, 'My fathers, pray on my behalf that I may be delivered from the plan of the spies'. (As for Joshua, Moses had already prayed on his behalf; as it is said: And Moses called Hoshea the son of Nun Joshua,17  [meaning], May Jah save thee [yoshi'aka] from the plan of the spies.) That is the intention of what is written: But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him.18

[muman613]

One more which attempts to explain why Hashem creates miracles:


http://www.neveh.org/winston/undwhy/undwhy04.html

In Need of a Miracle

Rav Papa said to Abaye, "What is the difference between the former generation and us, that miracles happened for them, and yet not for us?"... He replied, "The former generations sacrificed themselves for the sanctity of the name [of God]; we do not sacrifice ourselves for the sanctity of the name [of God]."
Talmud Brochos 20a

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

What provokes an obvious miracle? (There is a distinction between overt miracles and covert miracles. The latter happen all the time and are camouflaged to appear like acts of ‘nature’ (e.g., the entire process of birth); the former clearly break all the known patterns of creation in a way that does not suggest a random occurrence.) What draws out obvious Divine intervention? The Talmud’s answer: willingness to sanc-tify the name of God, even if it means giving up one’s own life. But is this true? Is self-sacrifice enough to be a source of miracles? Consider the following midrash:

Rabbi Samuel, the son of Rabbi Isaac said, ‘Abraham would not have been saved from the furnace of fire had it not been for the merit of his future grandson, Jacob.’ A parable explains this: once a man was brought before the Sultan to be judged, who subsequently ruled that the man should be burned to death. However, by way of astrology, it was revealed to the Sultan that in the future, the man, should he not be killed, would father a daughter who would one day marry the king. The Sultan said, ‘It is worth saving this man’s life for the daughter that will one day marry the king!’ Thus Abraham was judged to be burned in Ur Kasdim, and when it was revealed before God that in the future, Abraham would have a descendant Jacob, God said, ‘It is worth saving Abraham in the merit of Jacob!’ (Midrash Rabbah on Genesis 63:2.)

Tradition tells us that from an early age, Abraham was a truth-seeker. Though he was raised in an idol-worshipping society, he still believed that if there was a God, He had to be beyond physical limitation, not made of stone, wood, or metal.

It did not take long before Nimrod, king and self-proclaimed god of Babylonia, heard of Abra-ham’s belief. As a result, Abraham was brought before Nimrod and challenged. Abraham’s choice: give up his belief in God, or burn to death. Abraham chose to stand by his belief in God.

The day Abraham was to enter the furnace was a festive day for the Babylonians. (In fact, donations to cover the cost of the burning were plenty and generous.) But in spite of the fact that Abraham spent three days and nights in the fiery furnace, he did not burn. The servants of Nimrod opened the door expecting to find only ashes, but instead found a healthy Abraham to their utter shock and disbelief.

It was a great miracle that saved Abraham from certain death, and it earned him the respect of the people of Babylonia, including Nimrod himself. But why did Abraham warrant such a miracle in the first place? Was it because of his willingness to sacrifice his life to sanctify God’s name?

No, says the midrash. Abraham should have and would have died that day had it not been for Jacob.

This does not mean, however, that had Abraham died he would not have received ample reward for his self-sacrifice. (This is an important point that often gets overlooked in the discussion about suffering.) Perhaps he would even have been rewarded for what he would have achieved had he not been a ‘victim’ of man’s free-willed choices. In the end, Abraham’s death would have been the world’s loss, not his own, for eternal reward in the World-to-Come would have more than compensated him for what he had suffered in this world. (‘Ethics of Our Fathers’ teaches that one hour of eternal reward is far more pleasurable that an entire life of pleasure in this temporal world. This will be dealt with in more detail in Section Two.)

From the midrash, it seems what ‘forced’ God to make a miracle, even though it lessened the opportunity for free will choice of those who witnessed it, was the future birth of Jacob. The potential loss of Jacob weighed greater in the heavenly scale than the loss of the free-will of the Babylonians who witnessed the miracle.

(The Midrash indicates elsewhere that the philosophy of the Babylonians probably wouldn’t have permitted them to seek truth. However, even after the miracle, there were many who refused to accept Abraham’s explanation of the miracle, and instead attributed his redemption from the flames to magic. And by the splitting of the sea (Exodus 14:21), God employed and east wind to bring the miracle about, leaving enough room for doubt to remain in the mind’s of disbelievers as to the involvement of God.)

This principle is by no means absolute, (In the book, The Way of God, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, in the essay titled, ‘Miracles,’ states various reasons for the occurrence of a miracle, but concludes by saying, "It is possible that miracles should occur for many other reasons that are not comprehensible to us at all." It is a fundamental of Judaism that as much as we’re able to detect logic behind God’s actions, there is always an element of mystery that remains. An anology of this may be, as much as people understand Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, there is still much they don’t understand about it. Even that which they think they understand they probably don’t completely relate to. If this true when understanding the ideas of humans, how much more so is this the case when trying understand Divine wisdom!) but it does give an indication as to what might lead to an obvious miracle in some situations. Thus, if a person is indispensable to creation because of what he or she will eventually produce if he or she survives, then, though man’s free will choices might lead to their death, God may interfere on his or her behalf to save them.

This of course does not mean that if a miracle is not performed to save a person’s life, he is not viewed as righteous in the eyes of God. It just means that the open miracle necessary to save the person would have a negative net effect on history as a whole, and this is an accounting only God can make. (Likewise, to be saved by an open miracle suggests a responsibility to the future of mankind. It is also the belief in this idea that prompts people, when in dangerous situations, to make vows to God that depend upon their personal salvation, to justify a miracle being done for them.)

Thus, in the end, the will of man creates the need for miracles, but the ultimate purpose of creation sometimes demands that God not get so involved in the affairs of humans, at least not in an obvious way. The net result of these two opposing needs may be suffering, even for the righteous. However, this does not mean that the suffering that does occur does not accomplish something positive.

[muman613]

I have been searching for any site which comes up via my Kosher search engine which suggest that praying to the dead is acceptable. I have found none although I have found others who accuse Chassidim of doing this. I have scoured the Chabad site and other Chassidic sites and always they state the known Halacha, that it is forbidden to pray TO THE DEAD, but we are permitted to pray in the merit of the dead.

Here is another example of this Halacha:

http://www.atorahminute.com/2009-07-06

Praying to the deceased, Heaven forbid
Rabbi Ya'aqob Menashe

Monday, July 6, 2009/Tammuz 14, 5769

When visiting a cemetery, we have to be very careful not to pray directly to those who are buried there, since we are forbidden to pray to the dead to do anything for us. Rather, we have to increase our repentance and pray to G-d that for the merit of the righteous person who is buried there, He will have mercy on us, (or do such and such for us according to our requests).

We are, permitted, however, to make a request at the grave of the soul of the person who is buried there, especially of the Saddiqim (righteous), that the soul will intercede on our behalf with Haqqadosh Barukh Hu (the Holy One Blessed be He).

(See Rab Pe'alim, Heleq Beh, Yorah De'ah, Lamad Aleph, and Ben Ish Hai, Shanah Aleph, Parashath Nisabim, Oth Beh)

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I do not understand this...   "but you violate this too, and lie by telling others they may talk to the dead. Not only can the dead not hear our words, they cannot do anything. They know nothing, as King Solomon said, “for the dead know nothing.” (Ecclesiastes, 9:5) "

 What do they mean, the dead cannot hear anything, and they cannot do anything? So when you die your soul goes nowhere in just vanishes into thin air, that's it there's nothing else on the other side?

[muman613]

I do not understand this...   "but you violate this too, and lie by telling others they may talk to the dead. Not only can the dead not hear our words, they cannot do anything. They know nothing, as King Solomon said, “for the dead know nothing.” (Ecclesiastes, 9:5) "

 What do they mean, the dead cannot hear anything, and they cannot do anything? So when you die your soul goes nowhere in just vanishes into thin air, that's it there's nothing else on the other side?

I am looking into what the commentaries say about this line in Ecclesiastes (One of my favorite books of Tanach)...

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16470/jewish/Chapter-9.htm

Apparently the line is taken out of context. The original context is reproduced below:

4. For whoever is joined to all the living has hope, for concerning a live dog [it is said that] he is better than a dead lion.
5. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.
6. Also their love, as well as their hate, as well as their provocation has already been lost, and they have no more share forever in all that is done under the sun.

My basic interpretation is that this is saying that the dead are incapable of making any changes in the future of the world. They cannot accumulate more reward, and they are not knowing about the current state of the world. If their soul is forgotten they have no part of this world.

I will find what the sages say about these lines...

Here is Rashis comment on this line:

For the living know that they will die: and perhaps their hearts will return on the day of death and they will repent of their ways, but after they die, they do not know anything, and they have no more reward for the actions that they do from their deaths and onwards, for whoever toils on the eve of the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath.

It appears that my reading of it corresponds to Rashis understanding {that after death we are incapable of accumulating any more reward}...

Here is a story in the Talmud which relates this idea [that the dead are incapable of performing commandments, thus we should not torment them by going to the cemetery with our tzit-tzits (fringes) out..

http://halakhah.com/berakoth/berakoth_18.html
18a
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R. Hiyya and R. Jonathan were once walking about in a cemetery, and the blue fringe of R. Jonathan was trailing on the ground. Said R. Hiyya to him: Lift it up, so that they [the dead] should not say: Tomorrow they are coming to join us and now they are insulting us! He said to him: Do they know so much? Is it not written, But the dead know not anything?19  He replied to him: If you have read once, you have not repeated; if you have repeated, you have not gone over a third time; if you have gone over a third time, you have not had it explained to you. For the living know that they shall die:20  these are the righteous who in their death are called living as it says. And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the son of a living21  man from Kabzeel, who had done mighty deeds, he smote the two altar-hearths of Moab; he went down and also slew a lion in the midst of a pit in the time of snow.22


18b
'The son of a living man': are all other people then the sons of dead men? Rather 'the son of a living man' means that even in his death he was called living. 'From Kabzeel, who had done mighty deeds': this indicates that he gathered [kibbez] numerous workers for the Torah. 'He smote two altar-hearths of Moab'; this indicates that he did not leave his like either in the first Temple or in the second Temple.1  'He went down and also slew a lion in the midst of a pit in the time of snow': some say that this indicates that he broke blocks of ice and went down and bathed;2  others say that he went through the Sifra of the School of Rab3  on a winter's day. 'But the dead know nothing': These are the wicked who in their lifetime are called dead, as it says. And thou, O wicked one, that art slain, the prince of Israel.4  Or if you prefer. I can derive it from here: At the mouth of two witnesses shall the dead be put to death.5  He is still alive! What it means is, he is already counted as dead.
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R. Jonathan also retracted his opinion. For R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Whence do we know that the dead converse with one another? Because it says: And the Lord said unto him: This is the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying.28  What is the meaning of 'saying'?29  The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: Say to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: The oath which I swore to you I have already carried out for your descendants.

[muman613]

The next folio of Tractate Berakoth is very interesting:

http://halakhah.com/berakoth/berakoth_19.html

Folio 19a

Now if you maintain that the dead do not know, what would be the use of his telling them? — You infer then that they do know. In that case, why should he need to tell them? — So that they might be grateful to Moses. R. Isaac said: If one makes remarks about the dead, it is like making remarks about a stone. Some say [the reason is that] they do not know, others that they know but do not care. Can that be so? Has not R. Papa said: A certain man made1  derogatory remarks about Mar Samuel and a log fell from the roof and broke his skull?2  — A Rabbinical student is different, because the Holy One, blessed be He, avenges his insult.3

R. Joshua b. Levi said: Whoever makes derogatory remarks about scholars after their death4  is cast into Gehinnom, as it says, But as for such as turn aside5  unto their crooked ways, the Lord will lead them away with the workers of iniquity. Peace be upon Israel:6  even at a time when there is peace upon Israel, the Lord will lead them away with the workers of iniquity.7  It was taught in the school of R. Ishmael: If you see a scholar who has committed an offence by night, do not cavil at him by day, for perhaps he has done penance. 'Perhaps', say you? — Nay, rather, he has certainly done penance. This applies only to bodily [sexual] offences, but if he has misappropriated money, [he may be criticised] until he restores it to its owner.

[muman613]

This article on Parasha Haazinu mentions the Talmud Berakot sections I quoted above with a little bit of commentary in an attempt to make more sense of what was said..

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/peninim/archives/haazinu71.htm

In the Talmud Berachos 18a, Chazal quote the pasuk in Koheles 9:5, "'For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all.'" Chazal say that this pasuk is a reference to tzaddikim, righteous people, and reshaim, the wicked. "'For the living know that they will die,'" refers to the righteous, who in death are also called 'alive.' "'But the dead know nothing at all," is a reference to the wicked who, even in life, are considered 'dead.'" Chazal's exegesis begs elucidation. The pasuk refers to the living and the dead. While it makes sense that the wicked do not really live, from where do Chazal derive the notion that the righteous are called alive even in death?

Here is more clarification of what is meant by "The Dead Know Nothing at all":

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/the-basics-of-judaism/heaven-and-hell/page/2/?p=995

What departed souls know

I would like to know a little bit more about our souls. When we leave this physical world and we go to the nest world, can our souls see what happens in the physical world? Can souls there see the past of the lives of people in this world?

According to the conclusion of a long debate in the Talmud (Tractate Berachos 18b-19a), the dead are aware of events transpiring in this world. Exactly how many details they can detect, I am not sure, but I expect they can see the important things (I don’t know if they’ll still be able to follow the Yankees). At least one authority understands from this Gemara that not every soul will be able to see down into this world after death, though. Only those who were concerned and actively involved in helping people in this world will merit the vision to keep up with those for whom they sacrificed while alive.As far as soul being able to look into the past lives of others, I’m not aware. But it would seem that we will be able to see our own past lives (for those of us who have had them) as part of our personal judgment process.

For further reading on the topic of our souls, the best source I’ve seen in English are the incredibly accessible writings of Rav Aryeh Kaplan ob”m.

Good reading!

Shlomo Shulman

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Tag,

What you posted is a straw man argument, in my opinion. Who is claiming that the Rebbe was a prophet? Who is claiming he is a miracle worker? Who is claiming that we should pray to him? I have never seen such things, nor do I understand who the writer of the piece you posted is addressing.

As I posted above, there is a Torah precedant which says that one may pray at the grave of a tzadik, in the merit of the Tzadik. That was your original comment. What you just posted has no connection to this question. What this piece you just posted states is the obvious.

But why post it? Who is saying that we are supposed to pray to the dead? Could you please show that these ideas are expressed anywhere?

The first video for example. Listen to that guy and see for yourself. Their are others like him (and even worse) as well.

[muman613]

The first video for example. Listen to that guy and see for yourself. Their are others like him (and even worse) as well.

Shalom Tag & Shavuah Tov,

I have not watched the entire video but I did watch about 5 minutes of it. I suppose I should really watch the entire video before making an opinion I would first like to express some concerns.

It seems sometimes that you only rebuke those who follow these practices if they are Ashkenazi, or specifically Chassidic. The thing that concerns me is that not only to Ashkenazi and Chassidic Jews pay special attention to their Rebbes, but so do Sephardic Jews show such reverence to their Rebbes.

In that article you posted last Erev Shabbat, the 'attack' seemed solely aimed at Chabad, and Chassidus through Baal Shem Tov. But I did some research and found that there are several Sephardic Rebbes who promised miracles, and stories about miracles performed by these Sephardic Rebbes, and the reverence of their disciples who would regularly travel to the graves of the Rebbe in order to pray in their merit. But this is the same thing that the Talmids of the Chassidic Rebbes do... So where is the rebuke against these Sephardic Rebbes? Why only rebuke against Chassidus and Chabad? That is what I find troubling.

Let me quote things said about the Baba Sali, a great Sephardic Kabbalist of the last generation.

The Baba Sali, Rav Yisroel Abuchatzeira ZT"L


This article originally appeared in Yated Neeman, Monsey NY. and is reprinted here with their permission

Rav Yisroel Abuchatzeira, the great Moroccan tzaddik, was commonly known as the Baba Sali, or "Praying Father," because of his ability to work miracles with his prayers. This title, however, actually originated with an incident that occurred in Rav Yisroel's childhood.

Unlike most children his age, the young Rav Yisroel never longed for toys or sweets. All he wanted was a new siddur, the kind with large, shimmering letters.

One day his father, Rav Mas'ud Abuchatzeira, brought home such a siddur. But he was reluctant to give it to Rav Yisroel, fearing that its glitter might divert his son's attention from his prayers.

Rav Yisroel offered his father a proposition. "Let's make a deal," he said. "You give me the siddur, and if I pray with less fervor, you take it back."

"It's a deal," Rav Mas'ud replied.

Rav Mas'ud never did ask for that siddur back. Rav Yisroel prayed with great devotion and eventually became a pillar of prayer on whom Klal Yisroel rested.

ILLUSTRIOUS STOCK

Rav Yisroel Abuchatzeira descended from an illustrious family of Sephardic chachamim and tzaddikim, beginning with Rav Shmuel Abuchatzeira, who was known for his piety and scholarship.

Although Rav Shmuel was born in Eretz Yisroel, he lived in Damascus for a time, where he studied with Rav Chaim Vital. In Shem Hagedolim, the Chida refers to Rav Shmuel as an "Ish Elokim kadosh. Wise people speak of his might and wonders in saving the Jewish community from many difficulties."

The Abuchatzeira family eventually moved to the Moroccan city of Tafelatlech, where Rav Shmuel's son Mas'ud served as a rav. Rav Mas'ud's son Yaakov, known as the Abir Yaakov, succeeded his father as rav of Tafelatletch. Rav Yaakov was a great scholar who was known to be a baal mofeis.

The Abir Yaakov's oldest son, Mas'ud, followed in the family's footsteps and became an av beis din in Tafelatlech. It was there that his son, Rav Yisroel, the Baba Sali, was born.

A UNIQUE UPBRINGING

Rav Yisroel was born on Rosh Hashana 5650, and grew up in a home permeated with Torah and kedusha. The examples his parents set had a profound influence on him.

His family lived on a large estate. One wing contained a yeshiva, where budding scholars studied day and night. Rav Mas'ud's beis din was situated in another wing, and Rav Yisroel's oldest brother, David, studied in a room on the other side of the house.

Young Yisroel was eager to see how his father and brothers conducted themselves at mealtime. However, he hardly saw them at mealtime because they ate very little, in keeping with their ascetic lifestyles.

One of the main lessons Rav Yisroel learned in his home was that one should guard his tongue and use his power of speech only for Avodas Hashem.

Once, when Rav Yisroel was 10, he encountered a group of children who were fighting, and he denounced the child who started the fight. Later that day, he recounted the incident to his father.

"I was so angry at those children," he told him, "that I nearly cursed the instigator."

Rav Mas'ud listened carefully to Rav Yisroel's story, and used it as a springboard to teach him a lesson that eventually became the cornerstone of Rav Yisroel's way of life.

"My son," he said. "You are destined for greatness, and one day, all that escapes your lips will be fulfilled. As a result, you must only bless and speak well of others, and never curse anyone."

From that day on, Rav Yisroel was particular to always guard his speech.

Rav Mas'ud not only trained his children to guard their tongues, but also their eyes. On the rare occasions in which Rav Mas'ud went outside, he would cover his eyes with his cape to prevent himself from seeing inappropriate sights. From this behavior, Rav Yisroel learned the importance of Shmiras Einayim, guarding one's sight.
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IMPACT ON NETIVOT

Rav Yisroel had a profound impact on Netivot and its surrounding settlements. Many residents of these settlements changed their entire lifestyles due to his influence and began to observe the mitzvos hateluyos ba'aretz. In time, the Negev began to bloom spiritually.

From the moment Rav Yisroel arrived in Netivot, large numbers of people lined up at his door, seeking his help. His prayers led to many miracles and resulted in great kiddush Hashem. Many people also returned to their roots as a result of his influence.
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And there is Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri about which is written:

Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri

Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri, known as the Saba Kadisha, was born in 5580.He stemmed from a distinguished family of sages. His great-grandfather, Rav Yaakov Shlomo Eliezer, was the author of Mutzal Mi'Eish. His grandfather, Rav Chaim Shlomo Eliezer, wrote Maggid Mi'Reishit, and his father, Rav Yaakov, was an outstanding talmid chacham who passed away at an early age. His mother, Chana, also came from a prominent family.
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Appreciating his greatness, Istanbul's Jews founded a yeshiva for him, and many outstanding scholars studied there. One of Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer's most distinguished students was Rav Chaim Chizkiyahu Medini, author of the encyclopedic Sedei Chemed, who was to become the chief rabbi of Hebron .

The Sultan Abed El Chamid was also very impressed by Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer; so much so that he accorded him the title of Chacham Bashi, granting him the authority to issue amendments and edicts in the Jewish community.
 
The Earthquake

Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer was once seated at a celebratory meal at the home of one of the most prominent members of Istanbul's Jewish community, when he heard two secular Jews discussing the "natural" causes of earthquakes. His face ablaze, Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer rose from his seat and vehemently countered their arguments.

"According to your scientific theories," he cried, "an earthquake can't occur here at this moment. But if the Al-mighty wills it, an earthquake will occur here this moment, in defiance of the laws of nature."

At that very moment, an earthquake shook the entire city. And that was when Istanbul's Jews came to regard Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer as a miracle worker.

In 5664 (1904), the elderly Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer Alfandri resigned his position as chief rabbi of Damascus and moved to Eretz Yisrael. He settled in Haifa, where he studied undisturbed for the next several years. When the sages of Tsfat (Safed) learned that Rabbi Shlomo-Eliezer had made aliyah, they invited him to serve as their city's chief rabbinical judge.

Rabbi Shlomo Eliezer accepted the position, even though he was already nearly 90 years old. And he served in this position for nearly twenty years! He was referred to fondly as Sabba Kadisha, the "holy grandfather," a title he has already acquired before his decades in Tsfat.

And Rabbi Papo:

Rav Eliezer Papo, author of Peleh Yoetz and Damesek Eliezer (1785-1828). Born in Sarajevo, he led the community of Selestria, Bulgaria, and died early at the age of 41. He is considered the exemplary spokesman of the Sephardic musar tradition of the eighteenth century. He promised in his will that, “Whoever comes to my grave in purity after immersing in a mikveh, and prays with a broken heart, I guarantee him that his prayer will be accepted.” As such, his kever in Silestra, Bulgaria, is the destination of hundreds of visitors annually. His talmid muvhak was Rav Yoshiyahu Pinto.


Anyway, I agree that praying TO THE DEAD is forbidden by all authorities, and by common sense. What I often think is that because people don't understand why some daven at the grave of a tzadik is because they daven in the merit of the tzadik.

I was thinking about this as I was davening the Amidah today. Don't we daven every day in the merit of Abraham, Yitzak, and Yaakov? Maybe others may think we are actually davening to them, and not in their merit, G-d Forbid...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

but so do Sephardic Jews show such reverence to their Rebbes.

 (Responding to reading this before going on and reading the rest)

 Equally appalled. Doesn't matter for me if its Askenasi or Sefardi, I am against such things. By the way I do "bash" if you will what I see as deviant practices by "Kabbalists" which seem to have more influence in the Sefardi communities. Soo this is in no way a Sefardi vs. Askenasi debate.
 But I'll move on.

[muman613]

Here is the 1st blessing of Amidah...


Ba-ruch a-tah A-do-nai, E-lo-hei-nu vei-lo-hei a-vo-tei-nu, E-lo-hei Av-ra-ham, E-lo-hei Yitz-chak, Vei-lo-hei Ya-a-kov, Ha-eil Ha-Ga-dol Ha-Gi-bor v'Ha-No-rah, Eil El-yon, go-meil cha-sa-dim to-vim, ko-nei ha-kol, v'zo-cheir chas-dei a-vot, u-mei-vi go-eil liv-nei v'nei-hem l'ma-an sh'mo b'a-ha-vah.

Blessed are You, L-rd our G‑d and G‑d of our fathers, G‑d of Abraham, G‑d of Isaac and G‑d of Jacob, the great, mighty and awesome G‑d, exalted G‑d, who bestows bountiful kindness, who creates all things, who remembers the piety of the Patriarchs, and who, in love, brings a redeemer to their children's children, for the sake of His Name.

Me-lech o-zeir u-mo-shi-a u-ma-gein. Ba-ruch a-tah A-do-nai, ma-gein Av-raham.

O King, (You are) a helper, a savior and a shield. Blessed are You L-rd, Shield of Abraham.


It is clear here that we are davening in the merit of the patriarchs because we say "who remembers the piety of the Patriarchs"...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

But I did some research and found that there are several Sephardic Rebbes who promised miracles, and stories about miracles performed by these Sephardic Rebbes, and the reverence of their disciples who would regularly travel to the graves of the Rebbe in order to pray in their merit. But this is the same thing that the Talmids of the Chassidic Rebbes do... So where is the rebuke against these Sephardic Rebbes? Why only rebuke against Chassidus and Chabad? That is what I find troubling."

First off Chabad unfortunately took it to a whole new level. Secondly, and you can go search my posts I did "attack" if you will these practices being done in the name of Torah with these soo-called "miracle workers.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"His prayers led to many miracles and resulted in great kiddush Hashem. Many people also returned to their roots as a result of his influence."

  Notice it is HIS prayers, and not Prayers TO him.

 then you say

 "Anyway, I agree that praying TO THE DEAD is forbidden by all authorities, and by common sense. What I often think is that because people don't understand why some daven at the grave of a tzadik is because they daven in the merit of the tzadik."

  Then where is the argument, you are only agreeing with me, but I guess you have an issue if I'm not being fair enough with the "Askenasi vs. Sefardi" ?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Here is a thread on some of the things happening in the and affecting the "Sefardi world" that I opened .
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,63053.0.html

 

[muman613]

"His prayers led to many miracles and resulted in great kiddush Hashem. Many people also returned to their roots as a result of his influence."

  Notice it is HIS prayers, and not Prayers TO him.

 then you say

 "Anyway, I agree that praying TO THE DEAD is forbidden by all authorities, and by common sense. What I often think is that because people don't understand why some daven at the grave of a tzadik is because they daven in the merit of the tzadik."

  Then where is the argument, you are only agreeing with me, but I guess you have an issue if I'm not being fair enough with the "Askenasi vs. Sefardi" ?

Yes, my primary concern is that it seems to me {and I may be wrong} that you seem to only be concerned with Ashkenazi or Chassidic groups which do things which seem against the Torah.

This is why I bring examples that this practice, of praying at graves, is not only a Chassidic thing. And my other point is that often praying at a grave is not praying to the tzadik, or asking him for things, but asking Hashem to grant us our request in the merit of the Tzadik.

In the movie Ushpizin, when the wife is davening for a miracle, she mentions Rabbi Nachman in her prayer, and I am pretty sure she did not ask Rebbe Nachman, but said something along the lines of asking Hashem in the merit of Rebbe Nachman {but I will check this again}...

PS: My point was about 'miracle workers' because one article you posted seemed to say that only the miracle which we all witnessed is a miracle which can be believed. And I argued against that in several of my posts above this.

[muman613]

I just checked the movie (if it really matters?) and I was right... Here is what Mrs Belanga said in her prayer for a miracle...

"Our Holy Rebbe Nachman, from Breslev, G-d Almighty, in his virtue , hear our prayer, give us a miracle..."

When I hear that I have no problem understanding that she is not praying TO Rebbe Nachman, but she mentions his name in the hopes that his merit will cause her prayers to be heard.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Tag,

What you posted is a straw man argument, in my opinion. Who is claiming that the Rebbe was a prophet? Who is claiming he is a miracle worker? Who is claiming that we should pray to him? I have never seen such things, nor do I understand who the writer of the piece you posted is addressing.

It is not a straw man argument.  The person who wrote in his question (named Ariel) made the argument.  People like him really do exist.  There are websites devoted to this.  There are many people like him in Israel.  They openly express their beliefs and display their flags proudly (unlike in chutz laaretz where they usually do not openly admit these beliefs or don't advertise it).

The fact that you continue to deny such people exist absolutely astoundsme.  What are you afraid of exactly?  And if tag is just "stating the obvious" according to you, then what's the problem? The "obvious" can't be stated?  Its clearly not obvious to those who share ariel's beliefs and so too it may not be obvious to beginners or more secular Jews who could be confused by what they hear from meshichists.   Some of the stuff you post is "obvious" to very learned Jews or even to yourself.  Other stuff is less known.  But to a beginner reading here NONE of it is obvious, and you are helping inform such a person.  Tag is helping inform people on this issue.  The fact that its so basic is why its so very important to stress and clarify these matters.  So I suggest to stop obstructing discussion of these issues.

[muman613]

It is not a straw man argument.  The person who wrote in his question (named Ariel) made the argument.  People like him really do exist.  There are websites devoted to this.  There are many people like him in Israel.  They openly express their beliefs and display their flags proudly (unlike in chutz laaretz where they usually do not openly admit these beliefs or don't advertise it).

The fact that you continue to deny such people exist absolutely astoundsme.  What are you afraid of exactly?  And if tag is just "stating the obvious" according to you, then what's the problem? The "obvious" can't be stated?  Its clearly not obvious to those who share ariel's beliefs and so too it may not be obvious to beginners or more secular Jews who could be confused by what they hear from meshichists.   Some of the stuff you post is "obvious" to very learned Jews or even to yourself.  Other stuff is less known.  But to a beginner reading here NONE of it is obvious, and you are helping inform such a person.  Tag is helping inform people on this issue.  The fact that its so basic is why its so very important to stress and clarify these matters.  So I suggest to stop obstructing discussion of these issues.

Shalom KWRBT,

I do not deny that there are those who believe these things. I have addressed this before and I will say it again here. I have discussed this issue with my Rabbis and it concerned me greatly. It is my belief that Moshiach will come, and it may be soon, but I am sure that he has not already arrived and died.

The question then is this. What do we do about those who do believe these things? I am sure that my personal Rabbis, and I have a good relation with three Chabad Rabbis at this time, do not believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach. Those who are saying things which run against the more rational teachings of the Torah must be silenced gently. What am I saying here? Only that we should point out their error without being cruel or arrogant in our rebuke. Isn't it taught that we should only rebuke our brothers and sisters if they will be willing to listen to the rebuke, and how to ensure this, to not be unfair in judgement?

As I stated above, my issue with this whole thread is primarily the appearance that only Chabad and Chassidut were the ones engaging in these practices. While I pointed out that there are similar things which the Sephardic Jews do and yet I see little criticism of such practices.

Having made these points I would also like to point out that I am not 'obstructing' or 'attempting to prevent discussion', I am simply trying to make clear that these threads seem overly judgmental of the Ashkenazi Jews often giving few examples of non-Ashkenazi Jewry.

Aside from that I said I agree that TALKING or PRAYING to the dead is forbidden by the Torah. As I also posted there is Talmudic evidence that praying in the merit of a tzadik is permitted.

[muman613]

I just looked into the guy who made the video Tag posted, as the example, and it seems that he has an interesting story. I think I heard about him on a Tamar Yonah show or something (I may be mistaken)....

I don't think he is Chabad, though I don't know what Yeshiva he claims to go to....

After a near death experience Alon Anava has changed his life from one end to the other.

Alon Anava is a man blessed with a wide scope of talents. He has an artistic as well as an entrepreneurial spirit that have allowed him to be successful as an artist and as a businessman. He possesses vision paired the ability to realize that vision through focus and determination.

Alon is currently a successful Photographer and web developer.

Alon grew up in Ra'anana, Israel, where he was intensely trained in martial arts. He later pursued his training in Denmark under the tutelage of one of the greatest fighters known day. Through intense training, Alon further developed his innate ability to be in control of his environment. Where others might break under pressure, Alon Anava thrives and rises above all chaos maintaining balance at all times. He radiates a sense of completeness and humility without any false pretense whatsoever. In other words, 'what you see is what you get'.

This was not always the case. Before his life-altering experience, Alon would describe himself as simply put, not nice. After facing death, and realizing the purpose of life, Alon transformed his very being. He diligently attends Yeshiva studying every day, exploring the depths of Torah, refining and elevating himself on a daily basis.

Alon has come back with a gift. He is able to connect to our creator in a very intimate way, allowing him to also connect intimately with others and really help them overcome their questions and concerns.

During his free time, he spends his time sharing his story in an attempt to make it as real for you as it is for him. Our hope is that you as the listener will absorb Alon's story and wake up to the reality of this world. We hope that you will have the strength within you to rise above what seems like the prevailing darkness and choose light. We encourage you to connect to your maker and begin your spiritual journey to better yourself and humanity as a whole. We encourage you to see the miracle of you!