Asking advice of Tzaddik (* What NOT to do)

[muman613]

It appears I am correct that he was discussed on Tamar Yonahs blog:


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/4602#.UIRRmSGRyiI

He was the most secular Israeli you could imagine.   Alon Anava's choice of long hair, tattoos, and ear piercing made him look more 'rebel' than 'rabbi'.

"Religion didn't interest me, I didn't believe in G-d.  ...I didn't have any interest in religion, even more than that, religion looked to me ridiculous, religious people looked insane, ...I didn't want to have any connection."  As soon as he could, Alon swapped Tel Aviv for New York.  He dropped out, and enjoyed his youth to the hilt in the city that never sleeps. He spent his time on drugs and partying, not thinking about the future.  That was 9 years ago.  Today, the earrings are gone, he sports a long beard, short hair and a big black yarmulke (skull cap) on his head - because he had a Near Death Experience (NDE). 

He was riding with his girlfriend in the back seat of a taxi, when the drugs he took over powered his abused body and he succumbed.  There he was, dead.  His girlfriend freaking out in the taxi.  He floated above them both, seeing his body hunched over on her lap.  Hovering over and witnessing his death, thoughts began spinning around in his head and he says to himself,

"This is how Alon dies? This is like, ...the end? In a cab in New York? This is ...the story of 'Alon'? And it [a voice] tells me, "Yes. You're dead.  This is how it ends."

Alon Anava will describe his meeting with what he describes as, 'The Black Thing' or the 'Angel of Death' and how he experienced tremendous pain -physical as well as emotional, in a type of 'hell' that he was thrust into from his NDE.  He knew he had to change.  How he changed is the dramatic story he will tell us today at 7pm HT (Holy Time) ;-)  or 12 noon EST.  Call in with your questions. From the USA, Canada & Israel, call toll free:  1-800-270-4288  or if from another country, send an 'instant message' (not an email) to: [email protected] (text your first name and telephone number including country code, and our engineer will call you for the show).


I suppose for my own sanity I should watch the original video, so I can judge whether he is right or wrong {according to my understanding} on this issue.

[muman613]

Alright, this time I watched the 1st 8 minutes of the video and I have to say that I don't exactly see anything worth condemning here.

What he said was the truth, that there are those who believe that the Tzadik never dies, and there is Talmudic evidence for this belief. I did not hear him say that one should PRAY TO the tzadik for anything, I heard him say pretty much what I have been saying all along here, that we should pray that the Tzadik's merit be used to assist our prayers in reaching Hashem. This is what most Chassidic and Sephardic communities believe about their great Rabbonim. This is not something to be alarmed about. Not according to my opinion.

Also , KWRBT, this thread is not talking about who is Moshiach or not, just whether a communities Rabbi rose to the level of a Tzadik (A purely righteous individual who influences others to do good). I do believe that there are Tzaddikim in the world, and as a teaching suggests that the entire world exists in the merit of the 36 hidden righteous individuals.

http://www.oztorah.com/2009/08/36-hidden-saints-ask-the-rabbi/

This fascinating topic of 36 hidden saints of each generation, the Lamed-Vav Tzaddikim, has four principles: The world rests on righteousness, especially on righteous people. They are often not aware of their own greatness: Moses “knew not that his face shone” (Ex. 34:35). If their greatness were known, the spell would be broken. Each generation has 36 such tzaddikim.

I believe that we need righteous individuals in the world in order to help those who are less righteous, to provide a way to envision what true holiness is. We do not believe that a Holy person is completely above nature, as the word Kadosh is often interpreted as being UNIQUE or SPECIAL.

Now for the Talmud which discusses the idea that Jacob never really died, even though the Torah says that he was buried and mourned. This is not the Kabbalah, but straight from Talmud Taanit 5b:

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Taanith.pdf

R. Nahman and R. Isaac were sitting at a meal and R. Nahman said to R. Isaac: Let the Master expound something. He replied: Thus said R. Johanan: One should not converse at meals lest the windpipe acts before the gullet and his life will thereby be endangered. After they ended the meal he added: Thus said R. Johanan: Jacob our patriarch is not dead. He [R. Nahman] objected: Was it then for nought that he was bewailed and embalmed and buried?-The other replied: I derive this from a scriptural verse, as It is said, Therefore fear thou not, O Jacob, My servant, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel,- for, lo, I will save thee from afar and thy seed from the land of their captivity. 12

The verse likens him [Jacob] to his seed [Israel]; as his seed will then be alive so he too will be alive.

What I heard Alon say is that because of this idea, that a Tzadik's spirit never really dies, and that through the Torah which he taught to his disciples, and the example of Torah and Mitzvot he made to his students, that his spirit is alive and that the Tzadik can still assist his students after his death in this world.

I understand this, and don't see a contradiction to what the Torah has taught concerning not consulting the dead, or not using an intermediary.

Although I do believe it is wrong to put too much faith in a human being, because as the Torah teaches there is no man who has been born who does no evil. And as such even a tzadik has human failings. So I do not engage in these kinds of devotion towards a Rabbi. But I do have compassion and understanding for Jews who do feel a special connection to a person they believe to be holy.

I am just giving my opinions, and hope everyone is finding this discussion amiable.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 Muman if you heard his video and heard it well and still don't have a problem with what he said then you have bigger problems to resolve (for example the oneness of G-d).
  I also cant believe you make it out to be a Sefardi vs. Askenasi thing when it has nothing to do with these "racial" if you will differences, NOT AT ALL. And Like I told you before I do and did criticize what I see wrong in the Sefardi world of "Mekubalim" yett you ask it, then ignore it and repeat the same line.
 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Do you seriously justify the fact that he says to write to the DEAD Rebbe?
 Check at 13:10 for example.

 Or check the Title even before watching the video

 "Asking the advice of a tzadik that has passed from this world"

[muman613]

Muman if you heard his video and heard it well and still don't have a problem with what he said then you have bigger problems to resolve (for example the oneness of G-d).
  I also cant believe you make it out to be a Sefardi vs. Askenasi thing when it has nothing to do with these "racial" if you will differences, NOT AT ALL. And Like I told you before I do and did criticize what I see wrong in the Sefardi world of "Mekubalim" yett you ask it, then ignore it and repeat the same line.
 

Please tell me at what point you feel he says to pray to the tzadik? I have said that I find the belief of praying in the merit of a tzadik as supported by valid Talmudic sources.

[muman613]

Do you seriously justify the fact that he says to write to the DEAD Rebbe?
 Check at 13:10 for example.

 Or check the Title even before watching the video

 "Asking the advice of a tzadik that has passed from this world"

Very well let me listen to that section... And I agree that the title leaves questions... But there is no harm in questions, they often make one watch the video...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Please tell me at what point you feel he says to pray to the tzadik? I have said that I find the belief of praying in the merit of a tzadik as supported by valid Talmudic sources.

 
 I'm not going to watch the video now. You can watch it again. and about his "life after death" experience. I have to tell you that I do not believe in his story. What he says is taken from places like the Zohar and Midrashim he could have easily known these things, put them together and just say this story to the public. No real solid proof. Besides when i started challenging him he banned me and usually an honest person would not ban others when they question them.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Please tell me at what point you feel he says to pray to the tzadik? I have said that I find the belief of praying in the merit of a tzadik as supported by valid Talmudic sources.

 Did I ever contest that? Sorry, but I often feel by your replies that you put words in my mouth saying as if I said a b or c and didn't say a b or c.

[muman613]

And as I have said previously, I fully recognize the Oneness of Hashem, as the single source of all that exists in this world. I do not see a contradiction in believing in the Oneness of Hashem and the belief that there are people in this world who have higher and lower connections to Hashem. I do not believe everyone has the same connection to Hashem mainly because they do things which separate them from him. I do believe that the Torah suggests the way we establish a bond with Hashem is through the performance of mitzvot.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

This whole "Tzaddik, Tzaddik, Tzaddik" connection and obsession does and will lead to something like this that I just got on youtube. That is where ChaBad is unfortunately leading to. Just wait in a few generations what will happen (G-D forbid).

 Did you know that Jesus is your King Jew?
Did you know that Jesus also is G-d in human flesh?
Did you also know that Jesus said that he is the Sabbath?
Who made is Sabbath?

You Orthodox Jews, you reject Jesus because Jesus said he is the Sabbath and made a claim he is G-d. You Orthodox Jews have to accept Jesus your King king of humanity because you Jews are Gods people why are you Disobedient to G-d?

That's why you Jews get prosecuted in all those many thousand of years.

[muman613]

Did I ever contest that? Sorry, but I often feel by your replies that you put words in my mouth saying as if I said a b or c and didn't say a b or c.

I am sorry Tag, I have no personal issue with you... I fully believe that you have no ulterior motives at this time, but let me be honest in saying I have felt otherwise previously. I really do feel close to both you and KWRBT because of the depth of discussions we have here. I do spend a lot of my life dedicated to JTF, and a friend was saying she thought I spent too much time here. These discussions do have an impact on my spirit, and when we have disagreements I truly feel bad about it. I am sometimes a tough guy but I am also a very emotional guy too.

I really respect your opinion and I apologize if I was accusing you of only attacking the Ashkenazi.

Yes, if he says that we should consult with dead rabbis then he is veering off the path which I have learned, and from my better judgement.

[muman613]

This whole "Tzaddik, Tzaddik, Tzaddik" connection and obsession does and will lead to something like this that I just got on youtube. That is where ChaBad is unfortunately leading to. Just wait in a few generations what will happen (G-D forbid).

 Did you know that Jesus is your King Jew?
Did you know that Jesus also is G-d in human flesh?
Did you also know that Jesus said that he is the Sabbath?
Who made is Sabbath?

You Orthodox Jews, you reject Jesus because Jesus said he is the Sabbath and made a claim he is G-d. You Orthodox Jews have to accept Jesus your King king of humanity because you Jews are Gods people why are you Disobedient to G-d?

That's why you Jews get prosecuted in all those many thousand of years.

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in this post. Who wrote that? Is this a comment on a youtube video?

Chabad does not teach that Rebbe was Moshiach. We all say the Amidah and pray for the coming of Moshiach, the restoration of the Kingdom of David. I have studied with Chabad and the only sources I have learned have all roots in Jewish sources. I have not studied Tanya though, although my friends who have said it, like Rabbi Nachmans Likutie Moran, is just commentaries on the Talmud.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say in this post. Who wrote that? Is this a comment on a youtube video?

 Yes, I was debating with Muslims and some Christian (supposedly I dont know) wrote that. Look at the link. I just read it soo I though why not share it with you. At the end of the day a person is a person. We can look up to certain individuals who accomplish great things. But to then deify people, they are people, mortals. The 1 and only 1 true G-D is immortal, is the Creator and Sustainer of the world. Is the 1 to who'm Worship is owed to exclusively.

[muman613]

 Yes, I was debating with Muslims and some Christian (supposedly I dont know) wrote that. Look at the link. I just read it soo I though why not share it with you.

Mercy,

I think I know exactly how you feel. I posted something on a Chabad youtube video and got into a four day quarrel with some Christian who was talking about Blood Sacrifice and claiming we were not the "REAL JEWS" which the Bible talks about.

We are attacked by virtually every other religion, while we are the ones keeping the Torah... They read into it other things which are not there. Obviously not all Christians believe this {replacement theology} but their beliefs can be unsettling to us.

I do not feel that Chabad will lead us to this belief in a dead moshiach. My personal experience with the Chabad organization has been one of Torah. They do talk of their Rebbe, as the master of the Chiddush (hidden secrets) of the Torah. They do talk about great things he did, which I agree he did great things in putting together an organization which has done much good in this world. But they have not made me engage in their minhagim, they respect my minhagim, and they do not teach me to worship the Chabad Rebbe. I have much respect for him, and I believe he was a tzadik, so maybe I am a little more understanding of them.

Indeed I am aware there are Meshichists, but they are obviously the smallest minority {at least in all the Chabad Rabbis I have met over Shabbat lunch}. I have consulted with my Modern Orthodox Rabbi to see if there is something to be concerned with concerning the Chabad organization and I was told not to worry.

So I understand standing up against those who teach or do things against the Torah. And I support you in your effort to clarify Jewish observance of Mitzvot by questioning certain practices. I hope that you don't let those youtube comments get to you. I ended up telling the guys I said what I had to say, and lets leave it at that... I ignored his responses for two days after that before he gave up posting...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

 I'm not going to watch the video now. You can watch it again. and about his "life after death" experience. I have to tell you that I do not believe in his story. What he says is taken from places like the Zohar and Midrashim he could have easily known these things, put them together and just say this story to the public. No real solid proof. Besides when i started challenging him he banned me and usually an honest person would not ban others when they question them.

I totally believe in these near death experiences! How do people all over the world throughout time have the same experiences? Where did the story come from, it had to come from somewhere, so at the least it has happened once. I have even heard of people having these experiences without a near death experience. Are they all lying?

[muman613]

Tag, I just backed you up on that youtube page... I hope this doesn't start another week-long argument...

You are so messed up. The Sabbath is the Seventh Day, the day Hashem created in order to bring REST to the world. We will never bow to a G-d of flesh and blood, neither one of wood and stone. G-d commanded what is done concerning the false prophet, and warned us against the likes of your phony-baloney. G-d never commanded we worship a man, just the opposite. The redeemer will come and destroy all those who believe in flesh and blood.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I totally believe in these near death experiences! How do people all over the world throughout time have the same experiences? Where did the story come from, it had to come from somewhere, so at the least it has happened once. I have even heard of people having these experiences without a near death experience. Are they all lying?

 Soo do I, but people can very well twist these things for their own purposes. I have heard these "stories" from different groups as well all claiming that their version and their religion is true etc.

 My point is that not to follow someone blindly even if they have a great story (supposedly). We need to use our Sehel

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Shalom KWRBT,

I do not deny that there are those who believe these things. I have addressed this before and I will say it again here. I have discussed this issue with my Rabbis and it concerned me greatly. It is my belief that Moshiach will come, and it may be soon, but I am sure that he has not already arrived and died.

The question then is this. What do we do about those who do believe these things? I am sure that my personal Rabbis, and I have a good relation with three Chabad Rabbis at this time, do not believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.

And therefore your point is what?  That your 3 chabad rabbis do not need to hear from tag?    Great but many people read this forum, not just your 3 chabad rabbis.

Those who are saying things which run against the more rational teachings of the Torah must be silenced gently.

. Its not a question of rational vs mystical.   If someone is praying to a dead rebbe or asking questions to him and expecting answers they are committing averahs plain and simple.      Nothing to do with legitimate rationalism vs mysticism debates.  It's way over the line and beyond the pale.

What am I saying here? Only that we should point out their error without being cruel or arrogant in our rebuke. Isn't it taught that we should only rebuke our brothers and sisters if they will be willing to listen to the rebuke, and how to ensure this, to not be unfair in judgement?

Pointing out that something is avoda zarra is not a form of arrogance.
You seem to think that anyone who mentions or disputes the insane claims of chabad meshichists are being arrogant or wrong in doing so.   On the contrary, such a person is clarifying what Judaism is and is not. 
Do you also believe chazal erred in insulting the minim?

As I stated above, my issue with this whole thread is primarily the appearance that only Chabad and Chassidut were the ones engaging in these practices. While I pointed out that there are similar things which the Sephardic Jews do and yet I see little criticism of such practices.

The vast numbers of chabad meshichists incriminate themselves.  However it is equally wrong no matter who does it.   But again consider the numbers.   Its chabad meshichists who pull out a sefer of the rebbe ask it a question then open to a random page and get an "answer." Etc. They are a sizable group.

Having made these points I would also like to point out that I am not 'obstructing' or 'attempting to prevent discussion', I am simply trying to make clear that these threads seem overly judgmental of the Ashkenazi Jews often giving few examples of non-Ashkenazi Jewry.

It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with beliefs.  Your response in turning it into a race thing reflects insecurity but there is no need for this.  Nobody is attacking your ethnic group.

Aside from that I said I agree that TALKING or PRAYING to the dead is forbidden by the Torah. As I also posted there is Talmudic evidence that praying in the merit of a tzadik is permitted.

Then I really don't get what your problem is.  Like I said, why can't the obvious be stated?
(And keep in mind what's obvious to u isn't obvious to everyone).

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I appreciate your reply and hope to be able to explain why I am involved in this discussion.

You may disagree with what I say, and that is OK, just please try to understand why I am saying this.

1) I believe that rebuke should be directed to those who need to hear it. This is one of the first rules of rebuke.

2) I believe that rebuke should be done between two Jews, not in the public, and not in a manner intended to be humiliating or shameful.

3) I believe that speaking of fellow Jews in a public forum, without allowing the other Jew to explain himself, is a form of Lashon Hara. Now you will argue about what is Lashon Hara, but I have studied the laws, and only in the most obvious cases of heresy or self-hatred, is it permitted to openly speak derogatorily of another Jew.

Do you believe that these are Jews? I do... When I read some kook on youtube who started to deface my youtube page claiming that Chassidic Jews are not Jews, and that all Chassidic Jews pray to their rebbe, I thought to myself who was this punk to decide who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. A Jew is born a Jew if his mother was a Jew, by birth or through a legitimate conversion. What the Jew believes does not ultimately decide whether he is a Jew, because this aspect of the Soul remains regardless of whether he is secular , religious, or believes in the tooth fairy.

What is my purpose KWRBT? I will tell you what I envision my real purpose in life, and my involvement with JTF...

I would like to help bring Moshiach. I believe that through Jewish unity we can actually help hasten the arrival of Moshiach. While some may think this is just talk, I do take every chance to help every Jew I can help, through money and through time, and I believe that we need to work together to bring us to put our entire faith in Hashem.

As I said, I do not excuse the false beliefs that some of these Jews express. And I doubt that my rebuke alone will bring about any Teshuva. But I am now inspired to ask that Alon personally via a comment on youtube to explain to a fellow Jew what his reasoning is considering the prohibition of consulting the dead. I do not understand why Tag was banned from his page, except for maybe he was not asking in a way which seemed sincere, without a pre-judgement.

Do not have any anger at me for my Ahavat Yisroel. I really think that we have something going on here, and I always take your opinions to heart.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I appreciate your reply and hope to be able to explain why I am involved in this discussion.

You may disagree with what I say, and that is OK, just please try to understand why I am saying this.

1) I believe that rebuke should be directed to those who need to hear it. This is one of the first rules of rebuke.

2) I believe that rebuke should be done between two Jews, not in the public, and not in a manner intended to be humiliating or shameful.

3) I believe that speaking of fellow Jews in a public forum, without allowing the other Jew to explain himself, is a form of Lashon Hara. Now you will argue about what is Lashon Hara, but I have studied the laws, and only in the most obvious cases of heresy or self-hatred, is it permitted to openly speak derogatorily of another Jew.

This is all totally absurd.

Whom did I rebuke?

When you put up an informative article about Sukkot or the laws of Shabbat, are you rebuking someone?   In my opinion, you are not, and it wouldn't make sense to rebuke people here.    The point of this section of the forum is to inform people about what Judaism is (and contrarily, also what Judaism is not!).

Am I supposed to chase after every single Chabad meshichist (there are thousands of  them!) and take each one aside individually and say to him why it is wrong to pray to his dead rebbe?    Like that's humanly possible?   And like any of the cultists will listen to me?   And otherwise, I can't dare mention that they exist or what crazy beliefs they are promoting to warn people against falling for their tricks and mistakes?  Please.

Instead, what I am interested in is not rebuking chabad people (meshichists or otherwise) or standing on a pulpit like I am "holier than thou" since I do not view myself that way, but instead to contribute to this section of the forum, whose goal (or so I thought) is to INFORM JEWS ABOUT JUDAISM.

Informing Jews about Judaism INCLUDES stressing fundamental beliefs (even if YOU muman613 think those fundamental beliefs are so obvious as to be self-evident - they still need to be said) and also discouraging certain cults and idol worship beliefs or mistakes that draw some Jews astray.    For example, we openly refute and denigrate "Jews for Yeshu."   Any cult which leads Jews astray is a terrible danger to the Jewish soul and to the Jewish people as a whole since we suffer when potentially good individual Jews go astray and follow foreign beliefs and foreign religions.

Furthermore, I want to stress right now that CHAZAL cursed the minim.  In fact they instituted in our prayers to curse minim every weekday, three times a day.    Minim do not have a right to defend themselves or explain themselves.   Foreign cults which lead Jews astray are not a legitimate side of a "debate" - they are beyond the pale.   

I will say it again:  Minim were not given the "right" to explain themselves in response to the Amidah which curses them thrice daily.

If you are not aware of what the minim were, please look it up!

Do you believe that these are Jews? I do... When I read some kook on youtube who started to deface my youtube page claiming that Chassidic Jews are not Jews, and that all Chassidic Jews pray to their rebbe, I thought to myself who was this punk to decide who is a Jew and who is not a Jew. A Jew is born a Jew if his mother was a Jew, by birth or through a legitimate conversion. What the Jew believes does not ultimately decide whether he is a Jew, because this aspect of the Soul remains regardless of whether he is secular , religious, or believes in the tooth fairy.

Not sure how this is relevant.   I never debated what a Jew is or is not.

As I said, I do not excuse the false beliefs that some of these Jews express. And I doubt that my rebuke alone will bring about any Teshuva. But I am now inspired to ask that Alon personally via a comment on youtube to explain to a fellow Jew what his reasoning is considering the prohibition of consulting the dead. I do not understand why Tag was banned from his page, except for maybe he was not asking in a way which seemed sincere, without a pre-judgement. 

Or maybe the simpler explanation - A person who is distorting Judaism will not allow his beliefs to be questioned publicly.  That is almost always the reason someone bans another person from responding!

Do not have any anger at me for my Ahavat Yisroel. I really think that we have something going on here, and I always take your opinions to heart.

I have no anger at you whatsoever.


Now I ask you for a third time, if what Tag is saying here is obvious according to you (you used that word to describe it), then WHY CAN'T THE OBVIOUS BE STATED HERE?     Do we censor the Torah because certain obvious/basic principles are not comfortable for certain people?    That is outrageous.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

And only in the most obvious cases of heresy or self-hatred, is it permitted to openly speak derogatorily of another Jew.

 Muman- I did contact him personally and privately. By the way what I wrote (I believe first response here is exactly word for word that I wrote to him). I also later sent him an email (after being banned). But the banning is not the issue, not at all.
 This guy speaks publicly. He gave at least a couple of lectures in public and at least in this video his message is to the public. The public many times includes ignoramuses who withh either accept these things and do them or think that these things are Judaism itself and laugh and ridicule all of Judaism because of what they see being said or done by some in the name of Judaism.
  About wanting Moshiah etc. Who does not want that here? Of-course we (me, you, KahaneWasRightBT) and most people want that, but the way to move forward is to discard those things that are actually holding us back. Besides this thing for example being a form of heresy it definitely does not bring us forward to the complete redemption process of having a complete Jewish state, run under Jewish law and with Sanhedrin and national leader directing it appropriately. Sitting and propagating and believing in fairy tales (I'm being blunt) takes us back and not forward.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Very related from the Rambam. Read it, re-read it again and again. Internalize it and understand.
  (Except in today's case, the list would include more things besides astrology, which is also still around today). For astrology you can and should add all "superstitious" beliefs and practices- red strings, "segulot", etc.)

 This is what abolished our kingdom, destroyed our Beit HaMikdash, prolonged our exile, and brought us to our present predicament. Our fathers sinned and are no more.

For they found many astrology books, followed them, and went astray. They imagined that these wisdoms were glorious and greatly beneficial, and they did not study warfare and land conquest. Instead, they imagined that these wisdoms would help them. Therefore, the prophets called them fools; and they certainly were fools, for they followed vanities which cannot avail nor rescue, for they are vain.   (Iggrot U'Teshuvot LeRambam, Iggrot Shonot, p. 21. 204)

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Serious question...  Rambam lived in the 1100's, were there other Torah scholars before him that spoke about the minim? Rambam was a man, so why does his teachings of oral law override the others before him, that's if they do? I hope this doesn't come off rude!

[muman613]

Serious question...  Rambam lived in the 1100's, were there other Torah scholars before him that spoke about the minim? Rambam was a man, so why does his teachings of oral law override the others before him, that's if they do? I hope this doesn't come off rude!

I have posted about what the minim were in previous threads. The word 'minim' basically means 'kind' as it is also the word for the species which we shake on Sukkot (The Four Species/Arba Minim).

http://www.akhlah.com/holidays/sukkot/sukkot_arba_minim.php

But in the context of this discussion the word 'minim' refers to the three specific kinds of heretics which are described as having no place in the world to come.

Here is the law according to Rambam, who doesn't exactly provide the sources for his laws... But I believe they come from the Talmud...

http://www.shemayisrael.com/rabbiforsythe/personalgrowth/tshuva.htm

6. These are those who have no portion in the world to come, who are cut off, eternally lost and judged according to the enormity of their evil and sins, dead forever and for eternity: heretics, those who deny G-d; those who deny prophesy or G-d's omniscience; those who deny or replace Torah; deny resurrection of the dead, coming of the redeemer [Mashiach]; rebellion against or abandoning Torah; those who cause the public to sin; those who separate from the ways of the Torah community; those who sin with a high hand and impudent attitude in front of other people, like Yehoyakim; those who inform or turn a Jew in to non-Jewish authorities without advance Torah-sanctioned permission; those who frighten a community without Torah-sanction and purpose; murderers; speakers of loshon hora (slander, gossip, defamation - even if the harmful speech was true); and one who undoes his circumcision.

7. There are five who are called minim (heretics, those who deny G-d). The one who says that there is no G-d or that the world has no Leader. The one who says that the world has a leader but there are two or more [i.e. not one]. The one who says that there is One Ruler but that He has a body or a form. The one who says that He is not the First Cause and the Rock Of The Universe alone. The one who worships any idol, star, constellation, ideology or anything besides G-d, or to be any intermediary between any human being and the Master of the universe. All of these five are guilty of being a heretic.

8. There are three who are called apikorsus (those who deny prophesy or G-d's omniscience). Those who say that there is no prophesy at all and that there is no knowledge that reached from the Creator to the heart of man. Anyone who contradicts the prophesy of Moshe our Rabbi. The one who says that the creator does not know the deeds of human beings. All three of these are guilty of being an apikorus. There are three kinds of people who are deniers or replacers of Torah. The one who says that the Torah is not from Hashem, even one verse, even one word. Or if he said that Moshe said on his own [and not from prophesy from G-d], this is one who denies Torah. Likewise, anyone who denies [the Torah's] explanation, being the Oral Torah; anyone who contradicts its instructors; as, for example, Tzadok and Baitus did. The one who says that the Creator exchanged one commandment for a second commandment and this nullified or replaced the first unit of Torah, even though the "first Torah" was from Hashem, for example Christians or Moslems, all of these are deniers of Torah.

9. There are two categories of Jew who are called those who rebel against or abandon Torah [moraid, mumar, meshumad - different terms in different manuscripts; in any event, Rambam is about to clearly define exactly what he means]. The mumar le'avaira achas [one who removes one commandment to "legitimize," in his mind, violation of the one commandment to permit one sin] and mumar lekol haTorah kula [one who removes the entire Torah to "legitimize," in his mind, violation of all of the commandments, to permit any and all sins]. One who abandons one commandment to permit one specific sin to himself is one who determines in his mind to do a given sin intentionally and to be habituated in it and has become well known for it. This even includes relatively light transgressions, such as being characterized as continually wearing shatnez [a garment containing wool and linen, Deuteronomy 22:11] or lihakif pe'ah [he cuts the hair at the corner of his head, Leviticus 19:27]; so that it is as if he nullified the particular commandment out of the world, as far as he is concerned. He is a "mumar" with respect to that thing, if he did it with intent to spite the Torah. A mumar lekol haTorah kula [is one who abandons the entire Torah]. For example, those who pursue idolatry or who convert to another religion. This might happen at a time that there is decree of legislation [demanding abandonment of Judaism for another religion] and then the Jew joins them [if there is no decree, moving to another religion is all the more unjustifiable because there is no jeopardy contributing to the motive]; and the Jew says, "What profit do I have to cling to Israel? for they are downtrodden and chased after; it is better for me to leave the Torah and to cling to these other people because they have more power." One who does the likes of this is an apostate against the entire Torah.

Talmud Sanhedrin 38 has  good discussion of how to deal with heretics concerning certain misquotes of Torah.

http://www.halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_38.html

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Very related from the Rambam. Read it, re-read it again and again. Internalize it and understand.
  (Except in today's case, the list would include more things besides astrology, which is also still around today). For astrology you can and should add all "superstitious" beliefs and practices- red strings, "segulot", etc.)

 This is what abolished our kingdom, destroyed our Beit HaMikdash, prolonged our exile, and brought us to our present predicament. Our fathers sinned and are no more.

For they found many astrology books, followed them, and went astray. They imagined that these wisdoms were glorious and greatly beneficial, and they did not study warfare and land conquest. Instead, they imagined that these wisdoms would help them. Therefore, the prophets called them fools; and they certainly were fools, for they followed vanities which cannot avail nor rescue, for they are vain.   (Iggrot U'Teshuvot LeRambam, Iggrot Shonot, p. 21. 204)

Tag, Could I get some more resources on this please?