To Chaim and the forum.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

I provided the whole entire explanation of what he and Kastner did. The deal that the Nazis had going with them is that they would be permitted to leave if they could convince their followers to go to the death camps without a fight. Chaim has explained this many times. I will not ever celebrate the Kastner Train being able to flee and nobody should. The individuals on it murdered hundreds of thousands of their fellow Jews so that they could save their own hides.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Oh, I'm sorry I was not talking about the case of the Satmar abuse. That counselor is just vile. I don't know how abuse would ever be forgivable.

I was talking about other situations.
No need to forgive without repentance. Yes but it doesn't hurt in some minor situations. For example.... at my shul I signed up for a ladies event. I opted to pay at the door, and I gave the lady in charge my payment in her hand. A few weeks later she wrote me a message to thank me for participating and that they were still waiting for payment!!
Wow I was very upset for a few minutes! How could they have ignored my payment. But I didn't feel like fighting because it was my only shul. So I remembered the bedtime Shema. Yes I paid again. In fact I considered my first payment a donation. Maybe one day the lady will realize her mistake and may say she is sorry. Who knows. But I forgave her completely for it.

That's fair.  And very good of you.   I guess I had in mind when someone wrongs someone else in a really major way rather than minor personal affronts (not to minimize what happened to you) where I think we should overlook the mistakes of well intentioned people.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

That's fair.  And very good of you.   I guess I had in mind when someone wrongs someone else in a really major way rather than minor personal affronts (not to minimize what happened to you) where I think we should overlook the mistakes of well intentioned people.

Not sure if you are referring to me, but Chaim did tell me to tone my language down and I will abide by that.

Please read this, Muman:
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,66771.msg579853.html#msg579853

[muman613]

I provided the whole entire explanation of what he and Kastner did. The deal that the Nazis had going with them is that they would be permitted to leave if they could convince their followers to go to the death camps without a fight. Chaim has explained this many times. I will not ever celebrate the Kastner Train being able to flee and nobody should. The individuals on it murdered hundreds of thousands of their fellow Jews so that they could save their own hides.

I am inclined to believe Chaim but can you provide a link to this story. Or something Chaim wrote about it? I have been searching for this information and I have not found mention of this.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The majority of Hungarian Jews in the 1940s were Satmars. Since I am angry about their being murdered (in large part by their own "rabbi" and Kastner), obviously I don't hate all Satmar members. These predators took advantage of their trust and faithfulness and obedience and that is why they are burning in hell as we speak.

[Every Jew AK47]

The majority of Hungarian Jews in the 1940s were Satmars. Since I am angry about their being murdered (in large part by their own "rabbi" and Kastner), obviously I don't hate all Satmar members. These predators took advantage of their trust and faithfulness and obedience and that is why they are burning in hell as we speak.

Blaming the Satmars for the actions of their one Rabbi is like blaming Christians for the action of Jeremiah Wright (who calls himself a Christian pastor)..   Yes, there are other reasons to dislike the actions of the Satmars, but the massacre of the Satmars in the Shoah and the cowardliness of the Rabbi is not that reason!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Blaming the Satmars for the actions of their one Rabbi is like blaming Christians for the action of Jeremiah Wright (who calls himself a Christian pastor)..   Yes, there are other reasons to dislike the actions of the Satmars, but the massacre of the Satmars in the Shoah and the cowardliness of the Rabbi is not that reason!

That is basically exactly what I said. Again I will invoke the Lutheran analogy. No, I don't hate all Lutherans--a lot of them aren't really aware of what their fuhrer-like founder did, but it is still a satanic Nazi sect of Christianity and they should leave it if they do not agree with their founder.

[muman613]

That is basically exactly what I said. Again I will invoke the Lutheran analogy. No, I don't hate all Lutherans--a lot of them aren't really aware of what their fuhrer-like founder did, but it is still a satanic Nazi sect of Christianity and they should leave it if they do not agree with their founder.

But Satmar Ideology does not promote killing Jews (or Christians for that matter) in order to make the world a better place. That is exclusively Lutheran ideology. It is incompatible to compare Satmar as a religious organization (albeit anti-zionist to the extreme) which may according to Chaim be responsible for some Chassidim being sacrificed, to an ideology based on hatred of the others.


I severely doubt you can understand what I am trying to explain. But Satmar does not teach that killing others is OK or a religious duty.

[muman613]

More on Luthers rabid Jew hatred:

Luther's other major works on the Jews were his 60,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen (On the Jews and Their Lies), and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (On the Holy Name and the Lineage of Christ), both published in 1543, three years before his death.[204] Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but "the devil's people": he referred to them with violent, vile language.[205][206] Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these "poisonous envenomed worms" would be forced into labour or expelled "for all time".[207] In Robert Michael's view, Luther's words "We are at fault in not slaying them" amounted to a sanction for murder.[208] Luther's "recommendations" for how to treat the Jews was a clear reference to the "sharp mercy" of Deuteronomy 13, the punishments prescribed by Moses for those who led others to "false gods".[209]

Luther spoke out against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia.[210] Josel of Rosheim, the Jewish spokesman who tried to help the Jews of Saxony in 1537, later blamed their plight on "that priest whose name was Martin Luther—may his body and soul be bound up in hell!—who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition."[211] Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works: they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden used a sermon to urge his parishioners to murder Jews.[210] Luther's influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots led to the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[212]

On 17 December 1941, seven Protestant regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory." According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther's writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther's writing was a "blueprint."[220] Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On 10 November 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[221] According to Professor Dick Geary, the Nazis won a larger share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic areas of Germany in elections of 1928 to November 1932.[222]

[Every Jew AK47]

That is basically exactly what I said. Again I will invoke the Lutheran analogy. No, I don't hate all Lutherans--a lot of them aren't really aware of what their fuhrer-like founder did, but it is still a satanic Nazi sect of Christianity and they should leave it if they do not agree with their founder.

It's not quite what you said, as you kept using the actions of the Satmar Rabbi as an example of why the Satmars are evil.  With respect to the rogue Satmar Rabbi, you should have saved your condemnation for the Rabbi, not the Jewish people as a whole who were massacred. 

If you want to talk about their ideology that is fine.  But I would appreciate if you would stop using the Satmar Rabbi as an example of why they are bad.  Instead, you should feel sorrow for all those devoted Jews (who were Satmars) who were exterminated by the Nazis (many who were Lutheran). 

Let's get things straight here.   If your beef with the Satmar sect is that they are against Israel then fine..  But stop making references to the cowardly Rabbi.  Many Jewish people did whatever they could to escape the horrors of the Holocaust and it is a very poor and in my opinion, unethical, example.   

You probably haven't heard all the stories about Satmar Jews in the camp going hungry one night so they could feed their chidlren who would not survive.  There probably was a lot of those Satmar Jews in the Camps who committed just as noble acts of bravery and honor that would counter the cowardly act of one man of their sect.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

It's not quite what you said, as you kept using the actions of the Satmar Rabbi as an example of why the Satmars are evil.  With respect to the rogue Satmar Rabbi, you should have saved your condemnation for the Rabbi, not the Jewish people as a whole who were massacred. 

If you want to talk about their ideology that is fine.  But I would appreciate if you would stop using the Satmar Rabbi as an example of why they are bad.  Instead, you should feel sorrow for all those devoted Jews (who were Satmars) who were exterminated by the Nazis (many who were Lutheran). 

Let's get things straight here.   If your beef with the Satmar sect is that they are against Israel then fine..  But stop making references to the cowardly Rabbi.  Many Jewish people did whatever they could to escape the horrors of the Holocaust and it is a very poor and in my opinion, unethical, example.   

You probably haven't heard all the stories about Satmar Jews in the camp going hungry one night so they could feed their chidlren who would not survive.  There probably was a lot of those Satmar Jews in the Camps who committed just as noble acts of bravery and honor that would counter the cowardly act of one man of their sect.

These heartrending stories took place because the leaders of this cult decided that their members were better off dead than in Eretz Yisrael or otherwise making some other attempt to flee or fight back against the Nazis. By the time the Final Solution came to Hungary, the Reich and its Nazi puppet regime in Hungary were heavily outnumbered and almost defeated. This did not have to happen. The actions of the Satmar "rabbi" and his friend Kastner have been the same as the actions of every single Satmar official throughout history. They are just the worst example of it. I don't feel sympathy for Teitelbaum because he was a coward and wanted to save his hide. His obligation was to save the lives of his fellow Jews and he deliberately gave them over to the Nazis so that he and his family could live. He is the worst of the worst of the worst of humanity in my opinion. Nothing will change that, so you can deal with it or not.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Cool off and then come back.
Lots of people get their stuff deleted. Its not personal.

[t_h_j]

But Satmar Ideology does not promote killing Jews (or Christians for that matter) in order to make the world a better place. That is exclusively Lutheran ideology. It is incompatible to compare Satmar as a religious organization (albeit anti-zionist to the extreme) which may according to Chaim be responsible for some Chassidim being sacrificed, to an ideology based on hatred of the others.


I severely doubt you can understand what I am trying to explain. But Satmar does not teach that killing others is OK or a religious duty.

Lutheranism doesn't advocate killing anyone either muman.

[muman613]

Lutheranism doesn't advocate killing anyone either muman.

Martin Luther sure did advocate killing Jews. I have already posted examples of his jew hatred. Do you deny it? Do you deny that jews died as a result of his demented writings? I sure hope you dont defend that evil man and his ideology. I am not saying that this ideology is taught today. In highschool a good friend wasvraised Lutheran. He was Estonian too...

[t_h_j]

Martin Luther sure did advocate killing Jews. I have already posted examples of his jew hatred. Do you deny it? Do you deny that jews died as a result of his demented writings? I sure hope you dont defend that evil man and his ideology. I am not saying that this ideology is taught today. In highschool a good friend wasvraised Lutheran. He was Estonian too...

Those writings are not Lutheran doctrine. So no, Lutheranism doesn't advocate killing Jews or anyone else for that matter.

[muman613]

Those writings are not Lutheran doctrine. So no, Lutheranism doesn't advocate killing Jews or anyone else for that matter.

Nobody here ever said Lutheran doctrine does this. We were talking about Marin Luther and his wicked writings. Are you familiar with his "On the lies of the Jews"? There is no doubt his writings contributed to the Nazi Holocaust against the Jewish people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

On the Jews and Their Lies

In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[13] They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine."[14] The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..."[15] He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection,[17] and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[18] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".[19]

The prevailing view[28] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[29] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.[30] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Diarmaid MacCulloch argues that Luther's 1543 pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies was a "blueprint" for the Kristallnacht.[31] Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Martin Luther's writings ; Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues" and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[32] In 1940, Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of Luther's writings and sermons on the Jews.[33] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[34] It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks.[35] On December 17, 1941, seven Lutheran regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had [strongly] suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory."

[muman613]

You see how things get twisted here? t_h_j just pops in and then assumes we are talking about the modern day followers of Lutheran Church.... I have never implied I am talking about those who follow Lutheranism... It was DBF who drew a comparison between Lutheranism and Satmarism, which is a ridiculous statement either way. No doubt those who followed the leader of the Lutheran Churches opinion of the Jews and burned our synagogues were doing their holy duty according to Martin Luther. But I am willing to look past those times, and as I said I was good friends with a Lutheran of Estonian upbringing (also a people who were nazis in WWII)...

But let us not get side-tracked and try to make this an attack on mordern day Lutherans, that is not my intention. I was just trying to explain how the ideology of some Christian sects fed the Jew hatred of the 1920-1940s...

[Zelhar]

"Somebody said something I didn't like, so I quit"

Well I say to this "good bye".

[muman613]

"Somebody said something I didn't like, so I quit"

Well I say to this "good bye".

If you read what he wrote that was not the problem.... But I will let him explain if he ever comes back... I have heard similar things from other Jews about the way things are handled on the forum. I just believe it is most important to get our message out, even if it is difficult and there are arguments and hard feelings.

[t_h_j]

You see how things get twisted here? t_h_j just pops in and then assumes we are talking about the modern day followers of Lutheran Church.... I have never implied I am talking about those who follow Lutheranism... It was DBF who drew a comparison between Lutheranism and Satmarism, which is a ridiculous statement either way. No doubt those who followed the leader of the Lutheran Churches opinion of the Jews and burned our synagogues were doing their holy duty according to Martin Luther. But I am willing to look past those times, and as I said I was good friends with a Lutheran of Estonian upbringing (also a people who were nazis in WWII)...

But let us not get side-tracked and try to make this an attack on mordern day Lutherans, that is not my intention. I was just trying to explain how the ideology of some Christian sects fed the Jew hatred of the 1920-1940s...

Its not Lutheran ideology though. That's like saying being a vegetarian is a nazi ideal because hitler practiced it.

[muman613]

Its not Lutheran ideology though. That's like saying being a vegetarian is a nazi ideal because hitler practiced it.

No, you are missing the whole point here. This has nothing to do with modern day Lutherans. It has to do with the History of the ideology of Luther, which was used by his church to incite burning of synagogues and abuse of Jews. Martin Luther was a Jew hater, his writings and actions demonstrate this. Again this has nothing to do with modern day followers of his church.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

But a whole lot of modern-day Lutherans are Nazi anti-Semites and the church does still teach it:

http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/08/16/paper-at-christ-at-the-checkpoint-2010-netanyahu-has-no-jewish-blood/
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Global-Mission/Where-We-Work/Europe-Middle-East.aspx
http://www.elcjhl.org/
http://witness.lcms.org/pages/wPage.asp?ContentID=468&IssueID=30

[muman613]

But a whole lot of modern-day Lutherans are Nazi anti-Semites and the church does still teach it:

http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/08/16/paper-at-christ-at-the-checkpoint-2010-netanyahu-has-no-jewish-blood/
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Global-Mission/Where-We-Work/Europe-Middle-East.aspx
http://www.elcjhl.org/
http://witness.lcms.org/pages/wPage.asp?ContentID=468&IssueID=30

I was not aware of that... I know my mother was very concerned about my friendship with the Estonian Lutheran when I was in High School... I didn't really understand at the time...

[Draughts]

I heard from a couple of people Lutheranism is a dangerous cult.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I heard from a couple of people Lutheranism is a dangerous cult.

I don't know about that, but I have heard that the Jews do not belong in Israel. And they support Palestine. ML called Jews a pit of vipers and the Hussites Judaizers.