Author Topic: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox  (Read 8282 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2013, 02:04:31 AM »
I'd like to argue whether there are 'evil spirits' which some people may consider 'demons'. While I respect Rambam, as most of us religious Jews do, but I also have to examine what the original sources say on the subject. Sometimes Rambam just doesn't make sense (to me) according to sources from the Talmud and midrashic exposition of the stories of the Talmud.

I could argue about a number of points on this topic. But I will concentrate on a simple point I thought of concerning those who deny the existence of 'evil spirits'.

Let us examine the following statement from the Talmud:

Quote
Sotah 3a

It has been taught: R. Meir used to say: If a person commits a transgression in secret, the Holy One, Blessed be He, proclaims it against him in public; as it is said: And the spirit of jealousy came upon him;3  and the verb 'abar [came upon] means nothing but 'proclaiming', as it is said: And Moses gave commandment, and they caused it to be proclaimed throughout the camp.4  Resh Lakish said: A person does not commit a transgression unless a spirit of folly [shetuth] enters into him; as it is said: If any man's wife go aside.5  [The word is] written [so that it can be read] sishteh.6



5 Num. V, 12. The word for 'go aside' is sisteh.
6 I.e., act in folly.

Here we are dealing with a Spirit of folly which leads a person to sin. What exactly is this 'spirit'?

So too there is a Talmudic concept that a Jew who fixes a mezuzah to the doorposts of his home will receive Divine protection from the Holy One, Blessed is He. While I was researching this I came across Talmud Yerushalami Pe'ah which relates a story between a Rabbi (Yehuda HaNasi) and the King of Persia (Artvon) , and in the end the Rabbi gives the Emperor a mezuzah and explains that it provides 'protection'.

What exactly is the mezuzah supposed to protect us from? A Mezuzah is supposed to remind us that we are living in a Jewish house, and that we should behave according to the commandments, and thus there are sages who say that doing the mitzvah is what provides the protection, not the mezuzah itself.... But still the question is what is the mezuzah protecting us against? Our Kabbalistic sources go on to explain that the mezuzah protects us from the 'evil spirits' of folly which lead us to sin.

So I believe that there is a concept of 'evil spirits' which may or may not be demons as others believe in. But I do believe that there are 'spiritual beings' such as angels and 'evil forces' such as the 'spirit of jealousy' and the 'spirit of folly'...

http://www.campsci.com/mezuzah/index.htm

Quote
The Yerushalmi in Mesechta Pe'ah (Perek 1) tells an interesting story: Artvon (who was the king of Persia) sent R' Yehuda HaNasi a most expensive stone with the request that he send him back something of equal value. Whereby, R' Yehuda HaNasi wrote a Mezuzah and sent it to him in return. When Artvon received the Mezuzah he was perplexed, and said, "I sent you something of great value, and you send me a cheap piece of parchment in return." R' Yehuda HaNasi answered, "You sent me something for which I will have to hire a watchman to protect it, whereby I sent you something that will offer you protection."
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2013, 02:15:09 AM »
I do believe in the existence of evil spirits and that negative forces exist. I could not agree with you more. I know of someone who had a life changing situation -who was heavily involved in things like that.

My question is... there are those who believe that demons are monsters who are able to do whatever their will is upon the earth and it's people. Demons who fell to earth, after their leader rebelled against G-d. (even HaSatan had limits in what he could do to Job) But to the red "demons" they can do whatever apparently.
Theologically, that is not true. Hashem said Himself- He created good and He created evil. But the Jewish scripture that says this was changed by the Christian translations as to say that He created good and created darkness. Or something of the sort... because how could G-d create evil? Oh no- the angels rebelled against him and were cast to the world where they are demons who cause people to do sins. As thus we have the typical image of demons- red with wings and horns and pointed tails.

So, when people say "demons" I disagree with them because they are taking the secular stereotype of what a "demon" is (ie the pointy red being). Compared to the reality that Hashem created good and created evil in the world and we have to choose good. Not by saying "get behind me satan" but by being strong and following G-d.

What is an "Evil spirit" I can never begin to imagine but I know Hashem created everything. Only He would know. But whatever forces are in the world and the universe are under His control. Rather than a few fallen rebellious angels, evil spirits are just spirits that He created for the purposes only known in His divine wisdom.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 02:56:52 AM »
You have some great points IsraeliHeart. It looks like you do a lot of thinking about these things (as we all should).

But I would like to clarify something you bring up. I know from the daily davening that in the Brachas before Shema we say one Bracha which is

"Blessed is Hashem, L-rd of the Universe, who is the maker of Light and creator of darkness"

http://www.torah.org/advanced/mishna-berura/S59.html

http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/kahn/archives/miketz72.htm

Quote
In general, we perceive darkness as a void of light. However, every morning we quote the Prophet Isaiah (45:7) in the first blessing before Shema and say that G'd "forms light and creates darkness". The Vilna Gaon explains that that darkness in reality is a creation of its own, which by the Divine laws of nature is "pushed away" by light (see Hakesav Vehakabalah Bereishis 1:4 and Kol Eliyahu paragraph 53). As our sages say: "A little light pushes away a lot of darkness." Even a small, weak flame will enable a person to see in a place otherwise shrouded in darkness.

But it is true that Isaiah in Chapter 45 line 7 reads:

7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things. {P}

So it seems that our blessing is derived from Isaiah, but we don't mention the creation of evil, we only mention the creating of darkness...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2013, 03:22:48 AM »
Oh no, I made a mistake!
You are right, it is not darkness, as I had said previously (darkness vs. evil). The mistranslation is actually disaster vs evil. I sometimes get things mixed up.

Tanakh:
Quote
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am HaShem, that doeth all these things.

NIV bible:
Quote
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lrd, do all these things.

Offline mord

  • Global Moderator
  • Platinum JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 25853
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2013, 06:51:12 AM »
What do you mean there are no demons Shlomo dealt with them and tied up ashmandi
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5764/vayeitzei.html   


Quote
Print Version

Email this article to a friend

Parshas Vayeitzei
Angel or Demon?
By Rabbi Pinchas Winston

FRIDAY NIGHT:

Ya'akov left Be'er Sheva in the direction of Charan. He arrived and slept there because the sun had set. He took some stones from there, put them around his head, and lay down over there. (Bereishis 28:10-11)

Part of that story is the hot pursuit of Eliphaz, Eisav's son who had been sent to hunt Ya'akov down and kill him. He did catch up to him along the way, but was persuaded by Ya'akov not to actually physically kill him. Instead, he robbed him of all his possessions, because as the Talmud says, a poor man is like a dead man (Nedarim 64b).

Speaking of which, this predicament was not unique to Ya'akov Avinu, but occurred as well to another very famous personality from Tanach: Shlomo HaMelech. According to the Talmud, Shlomo HaMelech had been temporarily deposed as king of the Jewish people by the head demon, Ashmedai.

As the story goes, Shlomo HaMelech had decided to begin construction on the First Temple, and was confronted with a problem. According to the Torah, the stones of the altar cannot be hewn using metal since it is a material used to make weapons that kill. The altar symbolizes life and tries to preserve it, and therefore using weapon material for the alter was a contradiction.

For this purpose, G-d created the Shamir worm, a special little worm capable of cutting through rock. However, there was only one such worm in the world, and Shlomo HaMelech needed Ashmedai to tell him its whereabouts and how to capture it, which first meant capturing Ashmedai himself. That was accomplished, but only after setting a clever trap for him, and thus Shlomo eventually ended up with the Shamir worm.

According to the Talmud, Shlomo HaMelech kept Ashmedai imprisoned in chains sealed with the Name of G-d the entire period that the Temple was under construction. One day, Shlomo HaMelech questioned his unusual house guest -- a grave mistake, as the Talmud tells:

He [Shlomo HaMelech] asked the latter:

"What is your superiority over us alluded to by the posuk, 'According to the power of His loftiness' (Bamidbar 23:22), for which they interpret 'loftiness' to refer to ministering angels and 'power' to demons?"

Ashmedai replied, "Remove this chain from my neck and give me your signet ring, and I will show you my superiority."

No sooner did Shlomo HaMelech comply when Ashmedai snatched him up, swallowed him, and stretching his wings, one touching the heaven and the other the earth, he spit him out again to a distance of four hundred miles. It is with reference to this time that Shlomo said, "What benefit is there for a man who toils under the sun?" (Koheles 1:3), and "This is my portion of all my labor." (Ibid. 2:10). To what does "this" refer? Rav and Shmuel argue: one said it refers to his staff, while the other holds that it refers to his kingly garment, with which Solomon went about from door to door begging. Wherever he went he said, "I, Koheles, was king over Israel in Jerusalem" (Ibid. 1:12). (Gittin 68b)

After being ousted by Ashmedai, Shlomo's stature was reduced dramatically, and he was left with only his staff and his cloak. Regarding retaining one's staff only, we learn from Ya'akov that this is a sign of one's poverty, as Ya'akov said regarding himself, "With my staff I crossed the river" (Bereishis 32:11), this statement being a description of his poverty at that time. The posuk is actually from Parashas Vayishlach, but it is recounting Ya'akov's state of affairs in this week's parshah after Eliphaz robbed Ya'akov on his way to Padan Aram.
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline nessuno

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5533
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2013, 08:07:51 AM »
I don't know any adults who believe in a red devil with a pitchfork.

I believe there are evil inclinations in all of us.  Evil comes from people not suppressing those inclinations or giving into temptation.
Temptation is the 'little devil' that 'sits on a person's shoulder'.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2013, 08:24:17 AM »
I'd like to argue whether there are 'evil spirits' which some people may consider 'demons'. While I respect Rambam, as most of us religious Jews do, but I also have to examine what the original sources say on the subject. Sometimes Rambam just doesn't make sense (to me) according to sources from the Talmud and midrashic exposition of the stories of the Talmud.

I could argue about a number of points on this topic. But I will concentrate on a simple point I thought of concerning those who deny the existence of 'evil spirits'.

Let us examine the following statement from the Talmud:

Here we are dealing with a Spirit of folly which leads a person to sin. What exactly is this 'spirit'?

So too there is a Talmudic concept that a Jew who fixes a mezuzah to the doorposts of his home will receive Divine protection from the Holy One, Blessed is He. While I was researching this I came across Talmud Yerushalami Pe'ah which relates a story between a Rabbi (Yehuda HaNasi) and the King of Persia (Artvon) , and in the end the Rabbi gives the Emperor a mezuzah and explains that it provides 'protection'.

What exactly is the mezuzah supposed to protect us from? A Mezuzah is supposed to remind us that we are living in a Jewish house, and that we should behave according to the commandments, and thus there are sages who say that doing the mitzvah is what provides the protection, not the mezuzah itself.... But still the question is what is the mezuzah protecting us against? Our Kabbalistic sources go on to explain that the mezuzah protects us from the 'evil spirits' of folly which lead us to sin.

So I believe that there is a concept of 'evil spirits' which may or may not be demons as others believe in. But I do believe that there are 'spiritual beings' such as angels and 'evil forces' such as the 'spirit of jealousy' and the 'spirit of folly'...

http://www.campsci.com/mezuzah/index.htm

 Muman you beautifully made Rambam's argument and proved him correct.  Look at the rest of your post. Things like the Mezuza does not provide some supernatural or superstition "protection". It provides awareness of G-D and His Misswoth and THAT protects" a person from his own "spirit of follow" that leads him to sin. Meaning his awareness and AWE of G-D is upon him which reminds him of G-D and of being a good person (or a good Jew) and following G-D's instructions.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline cjd

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8996
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2013, 08:44:45 AM »
I don't know any adults who believe in a red devil with a pitchfork.

I believe there are evil inclinations in all of us.  Evil comes from people not suppressing those inclinations or giving into temptation.
Temptation is the 'little devil' that 'sits on a person's shoulder'.
The only red devil I ever saw was on a paint can  :::D I was always told the devil has the power to take on pleasing forms... Seeing something with red, with horns and a pointed tail would sort of give me a hint that I was headed for trouble :o
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2013, 09:03:38 AM »
http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5764/vayeitzei.html
"According to Talmud
..."

There are places in Talmud which talk about demons.   The Rambam believes this is only one Talmudic point of view whereas many members of chazal did NOT believe in demons, even though some of chazal did and it was the predominantly popular view of their time among the world (ie the general populace including gentile scholars believed in such a thing as demons) and today we know which side of the argument is correct and simply do not utilize the statements which assert the existence of demons.  This is how a rabbi explained it to me once when I asked what does rambam do with those places in talmud that assert demons.   This seems to me the correct approach.   We follow the thread within chazal that ignores the discussion of demons and such since we know they do not exist.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2013, 11:17:04 PM »
Their is also a Rabbi Moshe Ben-Chaim (I think its spelled Mesora.org) who explains those pasages in the Talmudh referring to demons as one's own psychological "forces" at play (and imagination) and not the medieval portraits of some shadowy real figures with real power. It is part of the imagination.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2013, 11:19:35 PM »
Shadim - "Demons"

Moshe Ben-Chaim


Compared to the thousands of ideas in the Babylonian Talmud, there are relatively few instances of the term "shadim", usually translated as "demons". Regardless of this infrequent appearance in Talmud, the concept deserves elucidation. As in all cases, especially when one approaches an area where the Rabbis discuss unusual and almost impossible phenomena, a rational and objective approach must be maintained. If we look into the instances regarding shadim, we find that the Rabbis tell us not to give greetings to "others", if we are in a field, or at night, lest he be a "shade". Other cases where one is warned not to give greetings to another includes pits, and mountain tops.

Additionally, a Talmudic portion (Gittin 66a) states that if one hears a voice calling from a pit, (telling anyone who hears) to divorce his wife, we listen to him. The gemara asks:
"Perhaps it is a shade?" [And we should ignore it] The gemara continues, "No. It is when you see a shadow." [Therefore it's a real person] The gemara asks, "But the shadim also can have shadows!" The gemara concludes, "No. You also saw a shadow of a shadow."
The gemara ends, saying that since you saw a "shadow of a shadow", that this cannot be a shade, and we can divorce this man's wife. On the surface, this is a very strange gemara indeed. But there must be an idea here. (We can also ask why a shade might be assumed in such a case, where one thinks he hears a man wishing to divorce his wife.)

There are a number of questions:
1) What exactly is a demon? Can it be taken literally that there are demons roaming the earth? Have any of us ever seen one?
2) Why are we not admonished from greeting our friends in the city? Why is the warning only in the fields, pits, night time, and mountain tops? Are shadim unable to leave these four situations?! This is truly odd.
3) What is the warning about? Will they harm us? If so, what's the difference if we greet them or not? Can they not harm us equally, whether or not we greet them?
4) In Gittin 66a above, how does a "shadow of a shadow" prove that it is not a shade?
 
I believe the answer to all these questions can be approached by first looking at one peculiar bit of information: the location where we are warned not to greet friends. All the cases, pits, fields, mountain tops, night time, are cases where one is in a situation of isolation to some degree. Either geographical isolation (mountain tops, pits/caves, or fields/deserts) or psychological isolation: at night.

What does isolation do to a person?

Man, a social creature by definition, fears isolation more than anything. This is why solitary confinement is the worst type of punishment. Isolation is even recognized by the Prophets as one of the worst situations, and requires one to 'bench gomel', (praising G-d for being saved) as we read in Psalms, 107:4, "They wandered in the wilderness, in the desolation of the path, they found no inhabited city." Not finding inhabitants is utterly distressing, to the point that King David made mention of it here in Psalms.
When one is isolated, his desire to be around civilization causes him to project onto reality - he will think he sees someone. But it is all an illusion to satisfy his fear, his loneliness. Thus, what the Rabbis are telling us not to offer greetings to, is in fact our 'psychological fantasies'. Greeting that which is a mirage, is crossing the line from fantasy to reality, one of man's worst crimes. The Rabbis, knowing that these shadim are truly daydreams or illusions, warned us not to "talk to them". Talking to a mirage elevates fantasy to  reality. There are so many areas of the Torah which deter man from living an illusory life, that the Rabbis saw it fit here too, to remove us from this behavior. Talking to a phantom of the mind gives credence to it. The Torah desires that man abandon all that is false, "midvar skeker tirchak", "from falsehoods, keep distant".
This now explains why the gemara in Gittin said that if there was a shadow, then it is a real person, and you can divorce the wife of this person in the pit, although you do not see him clearly. When a person creates these illusion to comfort himself, that people are in fact around, he only creates the minimal information needed to convince himself of this. That is, either a form of the person's face, his height, his hair color, or something else distinct to the person he desires to be around. But what is not needed, is not created, such as a shadow. This offers the person's psyche no comfort, and is therefore not created by the fantasy. Therefore, if one sees a shadow, it most probably is a real person. The gemara goes on to suggest that even shadim have shadows. This means that in some cases, one will create a more defined illusion. This is possible, so the gemara adds that when there's a "shadow of a shadow", then for certain, it is not a shade. "Shadow of a shadow"means that completely detailed illusions do not exist, and hence, it must be a real person one is seeing, and greetings are then permitted, and divorce is warranted.
It now makes sense that shadim don't enter cities. Deciphered, this mashal (metaphor) means that images of friends are not created when they are in reality near to us, as is found when we are in cities. Here, no need exists in our psyches to create illusions. At night however, when we are psychologically alone, or in the mentioned isolated locations, we will create images to comfort us.
In summary, the Rabbis teach that shadim are illusions created to satisfy real concerns. They are fantasies created in our minds. As the Rabbis warned us, we should not cross the path, treating fantasy as reality, even when we "see" it. How much more so when we don't.
 
Addendum
I would also mention the Rashi in parshas Noach, that Noach took two of every species, "even shadim" in to the ark. I believe this fits in well with our theory. Noach was now embarking on a state of isolation aboard the ark. Perhaps Rashi is intimating this aspect of isolation by suggesting euphemistically that Noach brought shadim into the ark.

http://www.mesora.org/shadim.html
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2013, 11:53:18 PM »
Who created the imagination? Thus who created these 'spirits'?

Obviously they are not meant to be taken as corporeal beings, but as spirits which can affect our decision making processes.

So too with the concept of angels. The Torah has several episodes where angels are involved. From the angels which Abraham invited into his tent, to the angels which Jacob saw going down and up the ladder and the one he wrestled with, these angels play an important role in the development of the Jewish people.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2013, 11:59:53 PM »
Who created the imagination? Thus who created these 'spirits'?

Obviously they are not meant to be taken as corporeal beings, but as spirits which can affect our decision making processes.

 Yea but these are taken to then mean by some (like in the first post of the thread) for their to actually be these independent "beings" that actually exist and have power etc. In reality some (like the one who sold that thing) are the one's who got the power or $ by manipulating the minds of foolish individuals. 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2013, 12:01:04 AM »
Yea but these are taken to then mean by some (like in the first post of the thread) for their to actually be these independent "beings" that actually exist and have power etc. In reality some (like the one who sold that thing) are the one's who got the power or $ by manipulating the minds of foolish individuals.

I agree that people are fooled because they don't truly understand the spiritual world. I agree with most of what Rabbi Ben Chaim said concerning the nature of these 'spirits' or 'demons'...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2013, 12:24:02 AM »
OK, I found some passages in Mesechet Pesachim which seem to challenge Rabbi Ben-Chaims explanation. Maybe you or someone who asks him questions could ask for his understanding of these passages.

Apparently, and I am just starting to read these sections, the Rabbis of the Talmud had determined that certain things (actions, numbers, etc.) have a bad effect on the soul, allowing the 'demons' to have more control over their behavior.

One of these things are 'pairs' according to this:

Quote
Pesachim 109b

AND THEY SHOULD GIVE HIM NOT LESS THAN FOUR [CUPS]. How could our Rabbis enact something whereby one is led into danger: Surely it was taught: A man must not eat in pairs, nor drink in pairs,4 nor cleanse [himself] twice nor perform his requirements5  twice? — Said R. Nahman: Scripture said, [it is] a night of guarding [unto the lord]:6  [i.e.,] it is a night that is guarded for all time7  from harmful spirits. Raba said: The cup of Grace [after meals] combines [with the others] for good, but does not combine for evil.8  Rabina said: Our Rabbis instituted four cups as symbolizing liberty: each one

Quote
Pesachim 110a

  R. Joseph said: The demon Joseph told me [that] Ashmedai the king of the demons is appointed over all pairs.’16 and a king is not designated a harmful spirit.17 Others explain it in the opposite sense: On the contrary, a king is quick-tempered [and] does whatever he wishes, for a king can break through a wall to make a pathway for himself and none may stay him.18

  R. Papa said, Joseph the demon told me: For two we kill; for four we do not kill, [but] for four we harm [the drinker]. For two [we hurt] whether [they are drunk] unwittingly or deliberately; for four, only if it is deliberate, but not if it is unwitting. And if a man forgot himself and happened to go out,19 what is his remedy? Let him take his right-hand thumb in his left hand and his left-hand thumb in his right hand and say thus: ‘Ye [two thumbs] and I, surely that is three!20 But if he hears one saying, ‘Ye and I, surely that is four!’ let him retort to him, ‘Ye and I are surely five!’ And if he hears one saying, ‘Ye and I are six,’ let him retort to him, ‘Ye and I are seven.21 This once happened until a hundred and one , and the demon burst [with mortification].

  Amemar said: The chief of the sorceresses told me: He who meets sorceresses should say thus: ‘Hot dung in perforated baskets for your mouths, o ye witches! may your heads become bald,22 the wind carry off your crumbs,23

And now for the most astounding quotes from Pesachim see page 111b where all kinds of 'demons' are named corresponding to the shades of different trees...

Quote
Pesachim 111b
If one eases oneself on the stump of a palm-tree, the demon Palga1 will seize him, and if one leans one's head on the stump of a palm-tree, the demon Zerada2 will seize him. He who steps over a palm-tree, if it had been cut down, he will be cut down [killed]; if it had been uprooted, he will be uprooted and die. But that is only if he does not place his foot upon it; but if he places his foot upon it, it does not matter.

 There are five shades:3  the shade of a single palm-tree, the shade of a kanda-tree,4  the shade of a caper-tree, [and] the shade of sorb bushes.5  Some say: Also the shade of a ship and the shade of a willow. This is the general rule: Whatever has many branches, its shade is harmful, and whatever has hard prickles [or, wood], its shade is harmful, except the service-tree, whose shade is not harmful although its wood is hard, because Shida [the demon] said to her son, ‘Fly from the service-tree, because it is that which killed your father’; and, it also killed him. R. Ashi said: I saw R. Kahana avoid all shades.

 [The demons] of caper-trees are [called] Ruhe [spirits]: those of sorb-bushes are [called] Shide [demons]: those which haunt roofs are [called] Rishpe [fiery-bolts]. In respect of what does it matter? In respect of amulets.6  [The demon] of caper-trees is a creature without eyes. What does it matter? In respect of fleeing from it.7 A scholar was once about to ease himself among the caper-trees, when he heard it advancing upon him so he fled from it. Well he had gone, it embraced a palm-tree,8  whereupon the palm-tree cried out9 and it [the demon] burst.

 [The demons] of sorb-bushes are [called] Shide. A sorb-bush which is near a town has not less than sixty Shide [demons] [haunting it]. How does this matter? In respect of writing an amulet. A certain town-officer went and stood by a sorb-bush near a town, whereupon he was set upon by sixty demons and his life was in danger. He then went to a scholar who did not know that it was a sorb-bush haunted by sixty demons, and so he wrote a one-demon amulet for it . Then he heard how they suspended a hinga10 on it [the tree]11 and sing thus: ‘The man's turban is like a scholar's, [yet] we have examined the man [and find] that he does not know "Blessed art Thou".’12 Then a certain scholar came who knew that it was a sorb-bush of sixty demons and wrote a sixty-demon amulet for it. Then he heard them saying, ‘Clear away your vessels from here.’


So it appears that there is some reason to believe that there are 'demons' of some kind which inhabit various objects. Otherwise I would like to hear an explanation for these passages.

Quotations from on-line Talmud @ http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Pesachim.pdf

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2013, 12:45:05 AM »
Quote
Pesachim 112b-113a

 ‘And do not go out alone at night’, for it was taught: One should not go out alone at night, i.e., on the nights of neither Wednesday nor Sabbaths, because Igrath the daughter of Mahalath,25 she and one hundred eighty thousand destroying angels go forth, and each has permission to wreak destruction independently. Originally they were about a day. On one occasion she met R. Hanina b. Dosa [and] said to him, ‘Had they not made an announcement concerning you in Heaven, "Take heed of Hanina and his learning," I would have put you in danger.’ ‘If I am of account in Heaven,’ replied he, ‘I order you never to pass through settled regions.’ ‘I beg you,’ she pleaded, ‘leave me a little room.’ So he left her the nights of Sabbaths and the nights of Wednesdays. On another occasion she met Abaye. Said she to him, ‘Had they not made an announcement about you in Heaven, "Take heed of Nahmani26 and his learning," I would have put you in danger.’ ‘If I am of account in Heaven,’ replied he, ‘I order you never to pass through settled regions.’ But we see that she does pass through? — I will tell you: Those are the narrow paths [which they frequent], whence their horses bolt and come [into civilized places] bringing them along.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2013, 02:26:41 AM »
Well there are the type of demons that people think about which are red with horns and are able to go about causing bad things. If this is what people think of with the "dybbuk" story then no. There is no such thing. There is no devil with a pitchfork standing over anyone's shoulder. Nor the demons of superstitions in which many people have blamed things on- to take away their responsibility (ie: the devil was inside him, the devil made him do it, the devil inspires them etc). I never hear any Rabbi talk about "beware of demons", "rebuke satan" or devils possessing anyone or "get behind me satan" or any of those things. None of those things are true- and to actually to think that there are such things is not having trust in Hashem.

So I agree, no such thing.

Regarding what I wrote previously, I want to remind everyone that I am not saying I adhere to any paranormal beliefs personally. I read up about the subjects before...long time ago. But I just want to make a point that people may erroneously label a "dybbuk" as a demon. Which would not be the case. While some people may think that a dybbuk is equivalent to a demon; in it's classic tale the dybbuk was actually considered to be just a soul. A soul of a dead person that is attached to something or someone in the living world as either a punishment or as a way of escaping their troubled fate.

 That is all. No devils or demons. 

And even then, I agree not to worry too much about it.
The Tanach establishes that G-d can permit the devil to test or attack righteous persons as a character or faith test.

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2013, 02:58:23 AM »
Testing people, yes. I mentioned Job before.
But isn't different than the belief of demons who are fallen rebels and have free range in which they posses people and do whatever they want out of their own evil nature- evil and out of the presence of G-d? (IE demonic forces vs the power of G-d and against good because they are fallen devils) etc..etc.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2013, 04:22:21 AM »
Testing people, yes. I mentioned Job before.
But isn't different than the belief of demons who are fallen rebels and have free range in which they posses people and do whatever they want out of their own evil nature- evil and out of the presence of G-d? (IE demonic forces vs the power of G-d and against good because they are fallen devils) etc..etc.
Standard Christianity does not teach that the devil has infinite power to do whatever he wants. Even if we believe that angels have free will and you don't, we teach that he (satan) is allowed power here on earth because the earth is wicked and deserves to be punished, and because righteous people need to be tested and refined. G-d could extinguish the fallen angels in a heartbeat, but he doesn't for the above reasons (and because he wants to give the wicked and wayward the maximum amount of time that he possibly can to repent before the final judgment).

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: The Dibbuk Box - The haunted Jewish winebox
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2013, 09:55:46 AM »
There are theological differences, which I can't describe. Rabbi Singer lays them out here:

http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_judaism_and_christianity_on_satan_mp3.html
Quote
In this provocative presentation, Rabbi Singer delves into one of the most crucial theological differences between Judaism and the Church: Satan and Original Sin. Missionaries insist that man is totally depraved as a result of Satan's unyielding power in the world, and man's only hope for eternal salvation is through the Cross. Is this claim true? What does Judaism teach about Satan? Utilizing a thorough presentation of Jewish and Christian sources, Rabbi Singer examines why Judaism and Christianity differ on the subject of Satan.