Hassidic circumcision ritual

[angryChineseKahanist]

....

whats happened? you've been extremely angry lately

[Rubystars]

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion. But I doubt it will change a thing. Gentiles have said the same thing for many centuries and this ritual is still performed today.

I don't think that they're intending harm, but I still think that it's very inappropriate as well as dangerous. On the surface of it, it does resemble pedophilia and that's bad enough, regardless of the intention behind it.

[Super Mentalita]

I don't think that they're intending harm, but I still think that it's very inappropriate as well as dangerous. On the surface of it, it does resemble pedophilia and that's bad enough, regardless of the intention behind it.

There i fully agree!

[muman613]

I support the Jews in the international battle against Islam. I support Israel, but i DON'T support perversion like this!

There is nothing perverted about it. Unfortunately your mind leads you to think it is..

[Super Mentalita]

There is nothing perverted about it. Unfortunately your mind leads you to think it is..

If you think so.....

[muman613]

Yeah, all Jews are secretly pedophiles and those who have had the brit are all messed up because of it... yeah..

Maybe you should look at the pedophile priests who have sex with young boys before you accuse a mohel of being a pedophile. How many have been accused of such things?

[Rubystars]

Yeah, all Jews are secretly pedophiles and those who have had the brit are all messed up because of it... yeah..

Maybe you should look at the pedophile priests who have sex with young boys before you accuse a mohel of being a pedophile. How many have been accused of such things?

I don't think that most or even any of the mohels who do this are pedophiles, but the act itself resembles something a pedophile would be doing to a child so that's why I think it's highly inappropriate. Obviously the priest situation was worse because they caused irreparable mental harm and really were pedophiles and did intentionally harm the children.

[Super Mentalita]

Yeah, all Jews are secretly pedophiles and those who have had the brit are all messed up because of it... yeah..

Maybe you should look at the pedophile priests who have sex with young boys before you accuse a mohel of being a pedophile. How many have been accused of such things?

I'am not sure how many. They should be hanged to. Paedophilia is paedophilia. It's something a 'normal' desent man should never ever do. It doesnt matter to me... Catholic, Islamic, Jew, Protestant.

[angryChineseKahanist]

Yeah, all Jews are secretly pedophiles and those who have had the brit are all messed up because of it... yeah..

Maybe you should look at the pedophile priests who have sex with young boys before you accuse a mohel of being a pedophile. How many have been accused of such things?

those aren't real priests. they are homo's in disguise.

anyway, as long as its only between rabbis and jews.....

[muman613]

There is nothing sexual about the brit. It is a procedure which the entire congregation is involved with, right before our eyes, and nothing untoward is involved. It takes only a couple of seconds and it is over...

[Rubystars]

There is nothing sexual about the brit. It is a procedure which the entire congregation is involved with, right before our eyes, and nothing untoward is involved. It takes only a couple of seconds and it is over...

I don't want to stop Jews from doing the bris on their babies but I do think that antiquated and dangerous techniques like that should be illegal. If anybody else did the same thing to a baby or even the baby's own father did such a thing criminal charges could be brought up.

[muman613]

I don't want to stop Jews from doing the bris on their babies but I do think that antiquated and dangerous techniques like that should be illegal. If anybody else did the same thing to a baby or even the baby's own father did such a thing criminal charges could be brought up.

Huh? There is nothing criminal about it. And a father can touch his son in cases of health. If there was harm done then it is a crime, but there is nothing wrong with what is done during a brit.

[muman613]

Are those arguing against this practice also arguing against using the glass tube to suck the blood? Or only using the mouth?

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I'am not sure how many. They should be hanged to. Paedophilia is paedophilia. It's something a 'normal' desent man should never ever do. It doesnt matter to me... Catholic, Islamic, Jew, Protestant.

Jesus must of been a pedofile too, huh?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I support the Jews in the international battle against Islam. I support Israel, but i DON'T support perversion like this!

 Don't support it, no one is asking. We just wont stand for calling this pedophilia and other such things because it absolutely is not. What pedophile no matter how sick would get enjoyment drawing out blood for a splitt second and then spitting it out? The intention is only for the health of the child and for the recovery process.

[Rubystars]

Huh? There is nothing criminal about it. And a father can touch his son in cases of health. If there was harm done then it is a crime, but there is nothing wrong with what is done during a brit.

Well I doubt in normal circumstances a father would be putting his mouth around his child's genitals and sucking them.

I'm going to stop posting for now because this whole topic is just too irritating to me.

I don't think I should have to explain why this kind of behavior is wrong.

[Rubystars]

Are those arguing against this practice also arguing against using the glass tube to suck the blood? Or only using the mouth?

I can't answer for other people but for me I'm just bothered by the direct mouth-to-genital contact.
Ok I'm taking a break for a while now.

[Super Mentalita]

Don't support it, no one is asking. We just wont stand for calling this pedophilia and other such things because it absolutely is not. What pedophile no matter how sick would get enjoyment drawing out blood for a splitt second and then spitting it out? The intention is only for the health of the child and for the recovery process.

And you think there is no 'normal' and 'modern' way to do it?

[muman613]

And you think there is no 'normal' and 'modern' way to do it?

Why does there have to be? And what exactly is 'normal'? What is normal today is not normal yesterday, it shifts with public opinion. Judaism is a belief based on the word of G-d, and G-d doesn't change he was, is, and always will be. Judaism re-evaluates it's halacha (Jewish law) in regards to modernity, and if there is sufficient reason which doesn't violate existing Halacha, innovations are permitted.

But there must be discussion among the 'poskim' the sages who answer halachic questions. As explained by Tag earlier, if the poskim decide to change the ritual then so be it. But as we see there are reasons some say that the mouth method is preferable. I believe that we should hear the arguments before rendering our own opinions.

But if it seems like pedophila to some there is no point in discussing it..

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

And you think there is no 'normal' and 'modern' way to do it?

  Yes and no. Some go by this way and others by that way. The question should be and is- what is the preferable way. And this is something discussed and should be further discussed. Things like the accusations of pedo are completely wrong and have no part in this discussion. Not at all. And that fact that the outside world is saying all of these things actually makes this discussion not be involved in what actually is the best method. The discussion is diverted off completely.

[Super Mentalita]

Allright that was my opinion about it. I hope i didnt offend someone.

[Dr. Dan]

It looks like this topic is going around in circles.

As a Jew understand that part of the custom is to create a suction to stave off infection.

Way back when before medical technology, the mouth was used. I get it.  It's not pedophilia. However, KWRBT brought up the best most logical sane answer. What I want to know from the pro mouth suction technique individuals is a counter argument to the glass straw technique.  And the argument cannot be, "we'll it's an age old custom."  If one technique of suction is safer or even as effective, why is there this resistance by certain individuals?  Much like the end of polygamy with some of the same Ashkenazi crowds did they end it for the sake of the Christian rule and not the suction technique (just as an example)? 

If it says suction and its not specified with the mouth, then why not the glass tube? 

As far as arguments calling this pedophilia, well it isn't. I think the arguments against the mouth suction in exchange for a safer way is far more sane. I don't like it that some religious Jews turn their head the other way. Besides custom, why is doing the way of the mouth better.  And if it is because it has always worked, then stop taking motorized transportation to travel and use a horse and buggy with the Quakers. Seriously. 

[angryChineseKahanist]

Glass tube idea sounds fine to me.
Glass tube with a filter of some sort so that you don't inhale any blood.
I take it glass tubes are kosher.

And silicone at the other end for the baby. What about anesthesia?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"If one technique of suction is safer or even as effective"

 Maybe, perhaps that method is more effective then the tube, I think they are and did look into it.


 And glass tubes and other methods are already being done. This topic was/is taken wayyy out of proportion. Many of these animals want to bann the Brit altogether. Both the physical Brit AND more importantly the Spiritual Brit (Covenant) done between Am Yisrael and G-D.

[cjd]

I don't want to go into details but we have all heard the reports of the newborn dying from Herpes simplex virus transmitted by oral suction from the Mohel.  Do all Hassidic sects practice this?  Do non Hassidim practice this?  This disgusts me on more levels than I can describe.

Have mercy... How can any parent put their child at risk with procedures like this... I could not care less if it was done this way for time in memorial once man learned deadly disease could be spread to the infant by doing it that way it should have been stopped cold...  I can't believe this issue generated a 3 page thread... Personally there is a level to what I will  absorb in the name of religion and a circumcision done with this oral procedure included really goes far past that point... Despite all the protests to the contrary I can't help seeing an element of child molestation in the picture.