Author Topic: Hassidic circumcision ritual  (Read 23763 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2013, 06:41:33 PM »
Have mercy... How can any parent put their child at risk with procedures like this... I could not care less if it was done this way for time in memorial once man learned deadly disease could be spread to the infant by doing it that way it should have been stopped cold...  I can't believe this issue generated a 3 page thread... Personally there is a level to what I will  absorb in the name of religion and a circumcision done with this oral procedure included really goes far past that point... Despite all the protests to the contrary I can't help seeing an element of child molestation in the picture.

Yay... Who cares..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2013, 06:43:06 PM »
Yay... Who cares..
:::D You do or you would not have answered. :laugh:
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2013, 06:47:29 PM »
No, just like a part of the anatomy, everyone has an opinion. When it comes to Jewish law, those opinions are just like that part of the anatomy..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2013, 06:53:11 PM »
Sounds like some people here really love the Reform Jews because the Reform Jews are 'modern' and 'normal'...

They don't circumcise, they can have Shabbat on Sunday (and they actually did for many decades), they can turn on and off electricity on Shabbat, they allow women to be Rabbis (very progressive and modern), they don't wear Tefillin or Tzit-Tzits, they don't eat Kosher (those pesky Kosher laws are SOO HARD to keep)... For all the talk against Reform by the gentiles here, it seems like they would accept them easier than Orthodox Jews...

Hey, maybe Tefillin should be made out of plastic and the parchment could me made out of paper? How about Torah scrolls written by printing presses instead of those old-fashioned scribes... Maybe we don't really have to pray three times a day... While we are at it why don't we throw halacha out the window?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2013, 06:56:27 PM »
No, just like a part of the anatomy, everyone has an opinion. When it comes to Jewish law, those opinions are just like that part of the anatomy..
Jewish law only really applies in a truly Jewish country... Now days I am not sure even Israel could pass that test... Anyone that thinks different has their brains in the part of the anatomy you refer to... A sure way to have religion circumcision banned even in a country like the United States is to have it become a health risk to even a small number of infants... Up until recently this issue has gone under the radar... Sadly this is no longer the case.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2013, 06:59:22 PM »
Jewish law only really applies in a truly Jewish country... Now days I am not sure even Israel could pass that test... Anyone that thinks different has their brains in the part of the anatomy you refer to... A sure way to have religion circumcision banned even in a country like the United States is to have it become a health risk to even a small number of infants... Up until recently this issue has gone under the radar... Sadly this is no longer the case.

No, Jewish law applies to Jews where ever they live... You are the one who suggests otherwise. And you are now bordering on some antisemitic comments. Jews are commanded to keep the commandments no matter where they live. Just because you say otherwise means you don't understand Jewish law.

They will not outlaw circumcision as long as Jews are valuable here in America. Once they start to do this America will be headed the route of Nazi germany.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #81 on: April 10, 2013, 07:01:40 PM »
It is funny that any thread which attacks Christian beliefs is locked immediately and the poster is insulted. But it seems insulting Jewish belief is A-OK here. Sometimes I really think JTF should be renamed Gentile Task Force and save the real Jews the grief of wasting time...

Also does anyone else notices the complete LACK of Jewish moderators here? I wonder why?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline cjd

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #82 on: April 10, 2013, 07:19:23 PM »
No, Jewish law applies to Jews where ever they live... You are the one who suggests otherwise. And you are now bordering on some antisemitic comments. Jews are commanded to keep the commandments no matter where they live. Just because you say otherwise means you don't understand Jewish law.

They will not outlaw circumcision as long as Jews are valuable here in America. Once they start to do this America will be headed the route of Nazi germany.
Everything said you don't like borders on being antisemitic... So be it... As a non Jew I have more than likely been more consistent in my support of Jewish Issues through out my life than you have during yours... I know your making up for lost time so you have to sometimes over do it  :::D  It's  OK... In my opinion this is an issue that should not even be discussed with non Jews because most will never understand it... This is the sort of thread really that should never see the light of day.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

A light on to the nations for 60 years


Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #83 on: April 10, 2013, 07:20:44 PM »
Chaim has said that it is not required, that only a tiny percentage of devout Jews do it this way, and that he would not have his children circumcised this way, and I agree with him. This practice should end or be banned.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #84 on: April 10, 2013, 07:24:56 PM »
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to revoke The Written Law or The Prophets; I am not come to revoke but to fulfill.

 Romans 3:31
 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #85 on: April 10, 2013, 07:28:07 PM »
No, just like a part of the anatomy, everyone has an opinion. When it comes to Jewish law, those opinions are just like that part of the anatomy..
If these opinions are all irrelevant and insignificant, why are they working you up so much? You and I both know that halacha does not require this and that very, very, very few religious Jews do it in the modern era. Why are you taking it as though it were an insult to your mother?

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #86 on: April 10, 2013, 07:31:10 PM »
There is another thread about this somewhere on JTF which contains some good information if I remember correctly.

Only a small subset of people do this part of the ritual as it is not a necessary part of the circumcision.   A glass tube or just gauze can be used instead.
It was believed in ancient times that the suction of blood away from the wound would contribute toward healing and prevent complications and infection.   Let's be mature adults and see "metzitza b'peh" for what it is - a medical procedure.  I admit that at times I thought of this as "inappropriate" in some way, but I think only a sick mind really thinks there is something untoward about this - Medical procedures are not and cannot be "untoward."     However, we now know that it is not necessary to be done in that format as we have other ways of removing the blood, and likewise we found out that there are actual risks involved with doing it.    IMO anyone who allows the metzitza bpeh to be done to their child is criminally insane, given what we know and what the risks are.   There is absolutely no reason to put a baby at risk.

Muman, it doesn't matter how old something is.   It was thought to prevent infection.   But now we know it can cause a certain type of infection that could be deadly.   As such, there are other ways of doing it (glass tube or gauze), and many poskim say it is not an essential part of the Bris, just a health precaution.   If it truly was a health precaution, it would be essential to do it, for the baby's sake, but actually it's a health risk.   So it's essential not to do it!

And as per your style, he was asking about metzitza b'peh, and you put up an article about METZIZTAH, defending it as 3000 year old custom.      How about just address what he's asking about so that you do not conflate the issues?

I am completely grossed out by this practice.  I wish I could better understand why some Jews think this is 'a ok.'  I think many people have a gutteral kind of response to this.  Also people with beards should not have their beard uncovered and near an open wound. When you cut someone's flesh, you break a barrier which was designed to prevent organisms from entering the body.  Beards, by virtue of being beards are not clean.  Too often, the beard of a Hasid is not even remotely a 'sterile field.'  I think it's way selfish to expose babies to this.  Most people now carry Herpes Simplex I, this procedure should reformed.

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #87 on: April 10, 2013, 07:32:45 PM »
I have no problem with Muman providing additional information on the subject.  It makes his posts worth reading in many cases.  However, I agree with Kahane that this is a terrible practice.  I have vocally opposed any attempts to outlaw circumcision but this is a case of tradition trumping common sense which I cannot favor.

Yeah, this is NOT about circumcision.  The movement in California was a Jew hating move pursued by Left wind fringe lunatics.  This b'peh is NOT that

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #88 on: April 10, 2013, 07:34:56 PM »
I have to agree with KWRBT and JTFE. Does that make me "anti-Semitic", even though both of those are Jews?  :laugh:

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #89 on: April 10, 2013, 07:35:29 PM »
I'm still of the opinion that there's no legitimate reason for a grown man to be putting his mouth on a baby's genitalia.

I agree.  I was surprised when I was told some years ago that in some Latin cultures, they kiss the baby "all over."  Needless to say when I saw two women go into a manic frenzy in this little boy's crotch, I was totally totally shocked.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #90 on: April 10, 2013, 07:37:52 PM »
If these opinions are all irrelevant and insignificant, why are they working you up so much? You and I both know that halacha does not require this and that very, very, very few religious Jews do it in the modern era. Why are you taking it as though it were an insult to your mother?

 Haaa? What do you know about Halacha and why does it concern you in any way. Let the Rabbanim and the Jews deal with Halacha and you keep to your boundaries.

 And if Chaim doesn't want to do it, fine and good (I probably agree with him) but this is not a case where we want or would appreciate it that gentiles or am haartzim (ignorant Jews) have a say in this matter. All the more soo try to bann it or anything else done by Jews.
 It is an evil slippery slope and any Jew who would allow things like this to be banned (by coercion by gentile or secular governments) is bordering possibly on the sin of being a mosser.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Draughts

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #91 on: April 10, 2013, 07:39:06 PM »
http://jewishmom.com/pregnancy-inspiration/inspiration-for-pregnancy/inspiration-for-new-parents/bris-milah-beautiful-or-barbaric-by-rabbi-shraga-simmons/Circumcision:

Beautiful or Barbaric? by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

Is circumcision a barbaric ritual that harms a child physically? Or is it a deep meaningful act that has both spiritual and medical benefits?
These days, the internet is filled with bulletin board discussions entitled “To circumcise or not?” Many will voice the opinion that circumcision (Bris Milah) is a cruel, barbaric procedure that can traumatize the baby. Some go so far as to claim that a Bris decreases future tolerance to pain, increases the risk of infection, has long term psychological affects, decreases sexual arousal, etc.

In Europe today, “human rights” groups have mounted a grass roots campaign opposing circumcision, comparing it to the brutal mutilation of African women. The Netherlands Institute of Human Rights wants to outlaw Bris Milah. And an article published in the prestigious British Medical Journal (April 2000), written by obstetricians, gynecologists, and midwives from hospitals in France, claimed:
“The [African] women we interviewed considered their daughters’ mutilation and their sons’ circumcision to be similar. Male circumcision is also a form of genital mutilation since it involves removing a healthy part of an organ. How can we convince mothers that they should not mutilate their daughters while they could continue to have their sons circumcised?”

A group of Israelis petitioned the Israeli Supreme Court to outlaw circumcision on the grounds that it is criminal assault.
Shockingly, this campaign even has adherents in Israel. In February 1998, a group of Israelis petitioned the Israeli Supreme Court to outlaw circumcision on the grounds that it is criminal assault. A joke? No. Case number 5780/98 is a real case, and the court has already held hearings.

Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin, Executive Director of the Israeli Association Against Genital Mutilation in Tel Aviv, says that a campaign is urgently needed to end Bris Milah. “Why are they discriminating against me as victim of Jewish male genital mutilation?” he decries. “Are my human rights, bodily integrity and suffering less important than those of African girls?”

JEWISH REASONS

The truth is, there is no “logical” argument for cutting a piece of flesh off a helpless baby.
Yet circumcision has been practiced on Jewish males for close to 4,000 years, ever since Abraham was so commanded by God. Why does the foreskin need to be removed?

In Kabbalistic terms, the foreskin symbolizes a barrier which prevents growth. For example, when the Torah speaks about getting close to God, it calls upon us to “remove the Orlah, the foreskin of your heart” (Deut. 10:16).
Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing “barbaric” behavior than in the sex drive.
When Abraham circumcised himself at age 99, God added the letter “heh” to his name. “Heh” is part of God’s own name, signifying that through Bris Milah, the human being adds a dimension of spirituality to the physical body.
It is a foundation of Judaism that we are to control our animal desires and direct them into spiritual pursuits. Nowhere does a person have more potential for expressing “barbaric” behavior than in the sex drive. That’s why the Bris is done on this specific organ. If we bring holiness into our life there, then all other areas will follow.

IDENTIFYING THE JEW

Another aspect of circumcision is that it is integral to Jewish identity. This point was made quite powerfully by a movie called “Europa Europa,” It is the true story about a young Jewish boy trying to escape detection by the Nazis. The boy resembles an Aryan and speaks German fluently, so he poses as a non-Jew and is eventually recruited into an elite training program for the next generation of SS officers.
This boy was on his way to a fully non-Jewish life, except for one thing: His circumcision. He couldn’t hide it. And that is what kept him Jewish throughout the entire ordeal.
Bris is the sign of the covenant. So a boy who is not circumcised has basically lost his spiritual attachment to the Jewish people.
The man survived the war, and made a new life for himself in Israel. Instead, he may have ended up becoming a Nazi officer. It all depended on the Bris.

MEDICAL DATA

It is a principle of Jewish life that our decision to perform mitzvot is not based on the “practical benefit.” At the same time, the mitzvot frequently have positive observable effects in our everyday life.
Regarding the medical issues, Rabbi Yonason Binyomin Goldberger writes in “Sanctity and Science”:
As an operation, circumcision has an extremely small complication rate. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine (1990) reported a complication rate of 0.19 percent when circumcision is performed by a physician. When performed by a trained mohel, the rate falls to 0.13 percent or about 1 in 1000. When a complication occurs, it is usually excessive bleeding, which is easily correctable. No other surgical procedure can boast such figures for complication-free operations.
One study showed that by the eighth day, prothrombin levels reach 110 percent of normal.
One reason why there are so few complications involving bleeding may be that the major clotting agents, prothrombin and vitamin K, do not reach peak levels in the blood until the eighth day of life. Prothrombin levels are normal at birth, drop to very low levels in the next few days, and return to normal at the end of the first week. One study showed that by the eighth day, prothrombin levels reach 110 percent of normal. In the words of Dr. Armand J. Quick, author of several works on the control of bleeding, “It hardly seems accidental that the rite of circumcision was postponed until the eighth day by the Mosaic law.”

Furthermore, circumcision has been known to offer virtually complete protection from penile cancer. According to a recent review article in the New England Journal of Medicine, none of the over 1,600 persons studied with this cancer had been circumcised in infancy. In the words of researchers Cochen and McCurdy, the incidence of penile cancer in the U.S. is “essentially zero” among circumcised men.
The incidence of penile cancer in the U.S. is “essentially zero” among circumcised men.
Also, research at Johns Hopkins University Medical School in Baltimore have shown that circumcised men are six to eight times less likely to become infected with HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. Researchers believe that protection is due to the removal of the foreskin, which contains cells that have HIV receptors which scientists suspect are the primary entry point for the HIV virus. (Reuters, March 25, 2004)
Several studies reported that circumcised boys were between 10-to-39 times less likely to develop urinary tract infections during infancy than uncircumcised boys. In addition, circumcision protects against bacterial, fungal, and parasitic infections and a variety of other conditions related to hygiene. The extremely low rate of cervical cancer in Jewish women (nine-to-22 times less than among non-Jewish women) is thought to be related to the practice of circumcision.
As a result of studies like these, a number of prestigious medical organizations have recognized the benefits of circumcision, and the California Medical Association has endorsed circumcision as an “effective public health measure.”

BRIS IN THE HOLOCAUST
Bris has been the hallmark of Jewish identification for millennia. The following powerful story appears in “Hassidic Tales of the Holocaust” by Yaffa Eliach:
One of the forced laborers in the camps relates that one day he heard frightening cries of anguish the likes of which he had never heard before. Later he learned that on that very day a selection had been made — of infants to be sent to the ovens. We continued working, tears rolling down our faces, and suddenly I hear the voice of a Jewish woman: “Give me a knife.”

I thought she wanted to take her own life. I said to her, “Why are you hurrying so quickly to the world of truth…” All of a sudden the German soldier called out, “Dog, what did you say to the woman?”
“She requested a pocketknife and I explained to her that it was prohibited to commit suicide.”
The woman took the pocketknife, pronounced the blessing — and circumcised the child.
The woman looked at the German with inflamed eyes, and stared spellbound at his coat pocket where she saw the shape of his pocketknife. “Give it to me,” she requested. She bent down and picked up a package of old rags. Hidden among them, on a pillow as white as snow, lay a tender infant. The woman took the pocketknife, pronounced the blessing — and circumcised the child. “Master of the Universe,” she cried, “You gave me a healthy child, I return him to You a worthy Jew.”

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #92 on: April 10, 2013, 07:42:38 PM »
I have to agree with KWRBT and JTFE. Does that make me "anti-Semitic", even though both of those are Jews?  :laugh:

If you say that Jews are not required to keep Jewish law then you are making a antisemitic comment. Basically cjd said that Jewish law is not important, nor relevant when Jews are outside of Israel. This is an antisemitic thing to say... Jews are always bound by Halacha no matter where they live...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #93 on: April 10, 2013, 07:42:38 PM »
I have to agree with KWRBT and JTFE. Does that make me "anti-Semitic", even though both of those are Jews?  :laugh:


 Ahmadinajob also agrees with 2 Jews as well. With Norman Finkelstein YSV and Dovid Weiss YSV
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #94 on: April 10, 2013, 07:45:01 PM »
Haaa? What do you know about Halacha and why does it concern you in any way. Let the Rabbanim and the Jews deal with Halacha and you keep to your boundaries.

 And if Chaim doesn't want to do it, fine and good (I probably agree with him) but this is not a case where we want or would appreciate it that gentiles or am haartzim (ignorant Jews) have a say in this matter. All the more soo try to bann it or anything else done by Jews.
 It is an evil slippery slope and any Jew who would allow things like this to be banned (by coercion by gentile or secular governments) is bordering possibly on the sin of being a mosser.

Tag,

The people who are practicing this are totally ignorant.  With most people being carriers for Herpes Simplex I, there is no reason to do this procedure as some presently do it.  Why should a baby start out his life with a genital infection?  I agree the media loves these stories, but these hard headed Hasids need to crack a science book instead of selfishly putting their children at risk.  There are ways to modify this to continue the symboilc meaning, but there is no reason, barring emergencies for people to be sucking blood out of a person's wound...and even then I would want to know the specifics

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2013, 07:47:40 PM »
Tag,

The people who are practicing this are totally ignorant.  With most people being carriers for Herpes Simplex I, there is no reason to do this procedure as some presently do it.  Why should a baby start out his life with a genital infection?  I agree the media loves these stories, but these hard headed Hasids need to crack a science book instead of selfishly putting their children at risk.  There are ways to modify this to continue the symboilc meaning, but there is no reason, barring emergencies for people to be sucking blood out of a person's wound...and even then I would want to know the specifics

Really JTFE2, they are totally ignorant.... I take offense at that. I know several great Jews who are not ignorant who had this procedure which I observed at the brit and there was absolutely no issue with it.

I think this argument has gone on way too long giving those who despise Jewish law a chance to let their opinions be known.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #96 on: April 10, 2013, 07:48:03 PM »

 Ahmadinajob also agrees with 2 Jews as well. With Norman Finkelstein YSV and Dovid Weiss YSV

Muman,

I hope you're not comparing me to them.  I dont think anyone here would criticize this LESS if it were being done by a Christian vicar or even the pope!  It's wrong to say this is necessarily, de facto, about anti-Semitism.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2013, 07:49:59 PM »
"The people who are practicing this are totally ignorant. "

 You make a claim, back it up. And you write "Hassids" as if it is only them. Sefardim have this as well.
And it is because of the media hype that this is getting the attention that it is. That and the fact the the gov. wants Brit Milah NOT to be done privately by Mohel's but by the government in hospitals (which most of the time are NOT valid Brit Milah's). Eventually their are those who wish to banish this altogether as was proposed in San Francisco. Soo whatever the case may be I say this is an internal question that is and should be addressed by the Jewish and only Jewish community and by those who are qualified. End of discussion.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #98 on: April 10, 2013, 07:50:22 PM »
Muman,

I hope you're not comparing me to them.  I dont think anyone here would criticize this LESS if it were being done by a Christian vicar or even the pope!  It's wrong to say this is necessarily, de facto, about anti-Semitism.

Are you OK JTFE2? You address me when it was Tag who made the comment you quoted?

But I agree with Tag in this argument... I seek to avoid harming the infant but at the same time do not see that this procedure causes more risk than anything else which may be done. The entire circumcision is a risk which is why it is not done till the eighth day..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline JTFenthusiast2

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Re: Hassidic circumcision ritual
« Reply #99 on: April 10, 2013, 07:51:23 PM »
Really JTFE2, they are totally ignorant.... I take offense at that. I know several great Jews who are not ignorant who had this procedure which I observed at the brit and there was absolutely no issue with it.

I think this argument has gone on way too long giving those who despise Jewish law a chance to let their opinions be known.

Muman,

I despise anti-Semites who say circumcision is barbaric, because it is NOT.  Babies do not have the central nervous systems of adults, their experience of pain is totally different.  Given them a little sugar water and 3 minutes later, it's all over.  It's well known that circumcision reduces the likelihood of HIV transmission. This has saved thousands of lives, if not many more, in Africa.  But this b'peh in this era is unfair to the baby.  I dont care how pious and pristine the mohel's mouth is, a mouth is a mouth and it's not sterile!