Hassidic circumcision ritual

[JTFenthusiast2]

Are you OK JTFE2? You address me when it was Tag who made the comment you quoted?

But I agree with Tag in this argument... I seek to avoid harming the infant but at the same time do not see that this procedure causes more risk than anything else which may be done. The entire circumcision is a risk which is why it is not done till the eighth day..

You responded to my comment to Tag, then I responded to you.

[muman613]

Muman,

I despise anti-Semites who say circumcision is barbaric, because it is NOT.  Babies do not have the central nervous systems of adults, their experience of pain is totally different.  Given them a little sugar water and 3 minutes later, it's all over.  Its well know that circumcision reduces the likelihood of HIV transmission. This has saved thousands of lives, if not many more, in Africa.  But this b'peh in this era is unfair to the baby.  I dont care how pious and pristine the mohel's mouth is, a mouth is a mouth and it's not sterile!

Would you support it (circumcision) if it had absolutely no health benefits? We don't do it because of health benefits, we do it because HASHEM COMMANDED it... So too with Kashrut, we don't do it for health purposes, we do it because HASHEM COMMANDED it...

It is nice that there are health benefits... But we should not concentrate on them and ignore the real reason for the brit...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman,

I hope you're not comparing me to them.  I dont think anyone here would criticize this LESS if it were being done by a Christian vicar or even the pope!  It's wrong to say this is necessarily, de facto, about anti-Semitism.

 I wouldn't care.

 If someone would say that they prefer the other method's etc. Then it would be fine and I would and do probably agree with that. BUT when they start saying and write evil things like "pedophilia" and other such things then that is something else.

[muman613]

I too agree that the glass tube method is a viable solution to the blood drop issue... But I would like more discussion among the poskim on the topic before I accept the general publics so-called 'opinion' on the matter..

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman,

a mouth is a mouth and it's not sterile!

 They use mouthwash and wash their mouth beforehand. Please tell me have you ever seen it done? Most people do not even notice it.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I wouldn't care.

 If someone would say that they prefer the other method's etc. Then it would be fine and I would and do probably agree with that. BUT when they start saying and write evil things like "pedophilia" and other such things then that is something else.

Absolutely.  I agree with you 1000 percent.  It is not 'pedophilia.'  Only someone who has pedophilic interests could even think that.  When I saw those women kiss that little baby's small crotch and everywhere else, I thought it was misguided, perhaps a bit strange for me, but they weren't trying to arouse him.  People hate what they don't understand and what they dont want to try to understand

[JTFenthusiast2]

They use mouthwash and wash their mouth beforehand. Please tell me have you ever seen it done? Most people do not even notice it.

I have seen it done.  I admit that I do not like going to circumcisions or watching them or hearing the baby cry.  That said I do think it's the right thing to do for the baby.  No man wants to grow up with a condition called phimosis either which is very painful, will require adult circumcision and is totally avoidable

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I have seen it done.  I admit that I do not like going to circumcisions or watching them or hearing the baby cry.  That said I do think it's the right thing to do for the baby.  No man wants to grow up with a condition called phimosis either which is very painful, will require adult circumcision and is totally avoidable

 No baby wants to grow up with a missing limb (G-D forbid) but people still drive. All necessary precautions must and are taken, but one cannot take a case that is less then 1% of 1 % and perhaps only a possibility and blow it out of proportion making it seem thagt every other Jewish male child is having these problems. I am sure that some of the Jewish males on this thread had this done as well and they might not even be away. Almost for sure if they are of Sefardic background. Many (not all) Askenasic as well.

[angryChineseKahanist]

 Your condemning my response yet not addressing the previous insult he jabbed?

because I did not attack you.
You attacked me.
I still have not attacked you. I don't plan on either.
I still love you no matter what.

2 I did not insult anyone or thing.

3 you already condemned me.

and no I don't understand the cutting issue as much as jews. I look at it from a medical and scientific view. don't forget, I was born in china, therefore I'm a communist and there is no Gad in China or Russia.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

because I did not attack you.
You attacked me.
I still have not attacked you. I don't plan on either.
I still love you no matter what.

2 I did not insult anyone or thing.

3 you already condemned me.

and no I don't understand the cutting issue as much as jews. I look at it from a medical and scientific view. don't forget, I was born in china, therefore I'm a communist and there is no Gad in China or Russia.

 You didn't address me but you did insult my religion and my people basically

 

you mean the rabbi "muh diked" the baby boy?
 

 Then I responded to you in kind.

[angryChineseKahanist]

You didn't address me but you did insult my religion and my people basically

 
 Then I responded to you in kind.

no you said go to hell according to google translate.

I have this problem in my DNA: (not a joke)
http://www.asha.org/public/speech/disorders/Autism.htm
http://www.comeunity.com/disability/speech/autism.html
http://www.autism-community.com/communication/

[JTFenthusiast2]

Tag,

Exposing a cut, at that point a wound, to the human mouth is a risk-- period.  The human mouth is like the dirtiest thing going!  Do you know most of us become carriers of Herpes simplex I, not from sex, not from deep kissing, but from the most casual, innocent and loving contact, usually between adult relatives and the young children they adore.  In addition, the mouth is LOADED, I mean LOADED with bacteria.  A newborn has very little immune system.  I believe that this practice serves a purpose, as everyone is saying, but the method through which we could go about it needs to be different because everyone has a bacteria laden mouth.

That said, I'm disappointed to hear so many members compare this to pedophilia.  Rabbis who perform this b'peh, however misguided,  and I definitely think performing this procedure as it was 2000 years ago is just not taking advantage of everything that Gd has enabled us to learn about the world and medicine, are not 'getting off' on performing this act that they think, as is, is a mitzvah. 

I can see how people see this perception as anti-Semitism.  In order to see this as pedophilia, you have to imagine that the mohel enjoys it, that not only does he like kissing the penises of newborn males, but that he likes imbibing blood--to whatever degree!  It's as if other member's have forgotten that this is a rite only being performed on boys that are being circumcised, not on all boys! 

 No baby wants to grow up with a missing limb (G-D forbid) but people still drive. All necessary precautions must and are taken, but one cannot take a case that is less then 1% of 1 % and perhaps only a possibility and blow it out of proportion making it seem thagt every other Jewish male child is having these problems. I am sure that some of the Jewish males on this thread had this done as well and they might not even be away. Almost for sure if they are of Sefardic background. Many (not all) Askenasic as well.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

By the way if I or Muman had been making a thread about christian practices and anything like that, it would have been locked. For example had I said that crackers and whine should be banned in christian ceremonies because they literally say it is the blood and body of yeshu and that is canibalism how would the christians react? Do I say it needs to be banned? No. Do I care about that practice NO. BUT ppl would have locked that thread.

[muman613]

I just called my Chabad Rabbi to check out Chabads position.

He said Halacha, according to Chabad, requires Metzitzah B'Peh otherwise the entire procedure is null and void. He related a story about Jews who needed a circumcision in Russia when they were permitted to do so (after the fall of the iron curtain). To make a long story short I accept my Rabbis opinion and defend it.



True, Chabad is a branch of Chassidic Judaism... But as we explained above this is not a Chassidic innovation, rather a Halacha which has been determined long ago.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

no you said go to hell according to google translate.

 Yes, and like I said that was after what you wrote (and I re-quoted it to you above).

[JTFenthusiast2]

I just called my Chabad Rabbi to check out Chabads position.

He said Halacha, according to Chabad, requires Metzitzah B'Peh otherwise the entire procedure is null and void. He related a story about Jews who needed a circumcision in Russia when they were permitted to do so (after the fall of the iron curtain). To make a long story short I accept my Rabbis opinion and defend it.

I like Chabad and I would want to know if and how they qualify this.  Muman, I admire your zest and your refusal to back down to something that you feel is motivated by Jew Hatred.  I really do not feel that this is the case here, in this instance.  I know you will go with your rabbi and I respect your commitment, even if in this case, I don't quite agree with you. 

[muman613]

I can forgive ACK because I know that many Asians have absolutely no understanding of the history or customs of the Jews.

I spoke recently with a woman I work with who thought we were a branch of Christianity..

[cjd]

By the way if I or Muman had been making a thread about christian practices and anything like that, it would have been locked. For example had I said that crackers and whine should be banned in christian ceremonies because they literally say it is the blood and body of yeshu and that is canibalism how would the christians react? Do I say it needs to be banned? No. Do I care about that practice NO. BUT ppl would have locked that thread.

It's been said... I thought you were all open to this sort of open discussion here on the forum? I guess it only is good when your bashing the Gentiles brains in and they are to polite to respond to you as they sometimes should.

[muman613]

I like Chabad and I would want to know if and how they qualify this.  Muman, I admire your zest and your refusal to back down to something that you feel is motivated by Jew Hatred.  I really do not feel that this is the case here, in this instance.  I know you will go with your rabbi and I respect your commitment, even if in this case, I don't quite agree with you.

I love my Rabbi, and all the Chabad rabbis I have come to know over the years. They have big families... One of my Rabbis has six children already, the other has five... And their children are model examples of good yidden, respectful of adults and desire to learn the ways of their fathers.

BTW, thank you JTFE2 for the kind words. I am sorry I expressed some anger towards your comments. It is only because I feel that this issue is being blown out of proportion...

[JTFenthusiast2]

By the way if I or Muman had been making a thread about christian practices and anything like that, it would have been locked. For example had I said that crackers and whine should be banned in christian ceremonies because they literally say it is the blood and body of yeshu and that is canibalism how would the christians react? Do I say it needs to be banned? No. Do I care about that practice NO. BUT ppl would have locked that thread.

That's different, the Christians on this forum for the most part accept the symbolism you described.  You would be criticizing them re: their religious beliefs or central tenet.  You'd be criticizing an idea.  They are criticizing a behavior

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

It's been said... I thought you were all open to this sort of open discussion here on the forum? I guess it only is good when your bashing the Gentiles brains in and they are to polite to respond to you as they sometimes should.

 What discussion exactly? I think someone (Debbie perhaps) asked who would be open to christian vs. Jewish discussion on the forum. I did say I would, but that was in the realm of having a discussion about why we say that christianity and all other beliefs are false and I would guess others trying to defend that. The idea never went through and we do not have that.
 And when their were similar things the threads were locked, people were outrages. Yett this thread goes on.

[cjd]

 What discussion exactly? I think someone (Debbie perhaps) asked who would be open to christian vs. Jewish discussion on the forum. I did say I would, but that was in the realm of having a discussion about why we say that christianity and all other beliefs are false and I would guess others trying to defend that. The idea never went through and we do not have that.
 And when their were similar things the threads were locked, people were outrages. Yett this thread goes on.

You want it locked?  I will lock it although I never locked any of the anti- Gentile threads... Just ask.

[JTFenthusiast2]

Please do not lock this thread.  We need to be able to talk to one another without needing to build a permanent fence when we have our feelings hurt or are offended by another person's ideas

[nessuno]

I think all male babies should be circumcised.
The blood sucking part seems kind of sick to me.
How can that possibly be sanitary.
Muman,
Chaim, Mishmaat, Mord, Lisa and the great Shlomo.  How are you missing Jewish moderation?

And AngryChineseKahanist is very intelligent.  I had the pleasure of meeting him in person.  I think he has a great understanding of Judaism.

And how could I forget the Dr. Dan.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Really JTFE2, they are totally ignorant.... I take offense at that. I know several great Jews who are not ignorant who had this procedure which I observed at the brit and there was absolutely no issue with it.

I think this argument has gone on way too long giving those who despise Jewish law a chance to let their opinions be known.

Everybody else has pointed out that this is not Jewish law, but one very archaic way of doing circumcision that almost no devout Jews do anymore. Explain how this is an integral part of halacha, since most people disagree with you.