Author Topic: A New low for messianics  (Read 23684 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 12:41:36 AM »
Wow, regarding the video of Rabbi Froman... it's intense. I could NEVER call Hashem "Allah"- it just does not feel the same at all.

As for Paul. Yes he is the one to blame. The gospel of Matthew was aimed at a Jewish audience and because of it's mistranslations of Jewish scripture that it used to prove itself- it was a failure at converting Jews. Paul on the other hand wanted to start with spreading the words to Jews but he was not successful as he was when he went to the Gentiles. Consequently, during the time of the writing of Matthew and Paul, there was no such teaching of a "trinity"

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5391
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2013, 01:04:15 AM »
Wow, regarding the video of Rabbi Froman... it's intense. I could NEVER call Hashem "Allah"- it just does not feel the same at all.

As for Paul. Yes he is the one to blame. The gospel of Matthew was aimed at a Jewish audience and because of it's mistranslations of Jewish scripture that it used to prove itself- it was a failure at converting Jews. Paul on the other hand wanted to start with spreading the words to Jews but he was not successful as he was when he went to the Gentiles. Consequently, during the time of the writing of Matthew and Paul, there was no such teaching of a "trinity"


Paul was the founder of Xtianity. I also heard that he was a rabbi that infiltrated Xtianity to get it to separate from Judaism so it would stop trying to convert Jews. Before Paul, they were similar to the J4J cults of today.


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5391
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2013, 01:14:28 AM »
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/715371/Dr._Shnayer_Leiman/Jewish_Perspectives_on_Early_Christianity_-_Nittel,_the_Ninth_of_Teves_and_Pope_Simon_Peter_-_Cong_Beth_Abraham

Here is a shiur about the infiltration into Christianity. I used to think Paul was evil for starting Christianity, but according to this he is remembered as a tzadik for infiltrating it and stopping them from converting Jews.


Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2013, 02:56:26 PM »
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/715371/Dr._Shnayer_Leiman/Jewish_Perspectives_on_Early_Christianity_-_Nittel,_the_Ninth_of_Teves_and_Pope_Simon_Peter_-_Cong_Beth_Abraham

Here is a shiur about the infiltration into Christianity. I used to think Paul was evil for starting Christianity, but according to this he is remembered as a tzadik for infiltrating it and stopping them from converting Jews.
If this is true... Which it does make sence.
He is not good or a Tzadik and he didn't stop Jews from being converted! What it did was, bring Jewish bloodshed  and lead a large population of the world astray and into idol worship... >:(
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5462
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2013, 04:13:28 PM »
If this is true... Which it does make sence.
He is not good or a Tzadik and he didn't stop Jews from being converted! What it did was, bring Jewish bloodshed  and lead a large population of the world astray and into idol worship...

 Actually the majority of the world was into idol worship even before christianity. I didn't listen to this but I did hear similar thing before and I am aware (although very little) about this.

 If it is true (and it is just a theory), it actually pushed away the "reform judaism" if you will of that time. And it did keep many Jews away from it as well by making a clear havdalah or distinction between Judaism and the new cult that sprang out that claimed to follow Judaism.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2013, 04:23:52 PM »
A Jew who joins such a cult and goes about 'converting' a Jew from Judaism to his cult is looked upon by the Torah as the most wicked. The Torah proscribes death for such a person.

See Rambams Halachot below:


http://m.chabad.org/m/dailystudy/default.asp?tDate=2/18/2013&type=rambam3

Chapter Five

Translator's Introduction

This chapter also deals with a number of mitzvot that share a common theme and are derived from a single Biblical passage. Deuteronomy 13:2-12 relates:

[This is what you must do] when a prophet... arises and presents you with a sign or miracle... and says to you, "Let us follow after other gods whom you do not know and worship them." Do not listen to the words of that prophet.... That prophet... shall die, because he spoke rebelliously against God, your Lord....
[This is what you must do] if your brother..., your son, your daughter, your bosom wife, or your closest friend secretly proselytizes among you, and says, "Let us go and worship other gods whom neither you or your ancestors know."... Do not be attracted to him or listen to him. Do not let your eyes pity him. Do not show him any compassion. Do not try to cover up for him. Rather, you must surely put him to death. Your hand must be the first against him to kill him.... Stone him to death... because he tried to sway you away from God, your Lord.... And all Israel will hear and they will become afraid and they will not continue to do such evil things.

In Sefer HaMitzvot, the Rambam cites six mitzvot which are derived from this passage:
Negative Commandment 16: Not to persuade a single individual to worship [a false deity];
Negative Commandment 17: Not to love a mesit (one who proselytizes on behalf of a false deity);
Negative Commandment 18: Not to reduce one's hatred for him;
Negative Commandment 19: Not to save his life;
Negative Commandment 20: Not to advance any arguments on his behalf;
Negative Commandment 21: Not to withhold information that will lead to his conviction;

Halacha 1
A person who proselytizes [a mesit] to any single Jew [a musat] - whether man or woman - on behalf of false deities should be stoned to death. [This applies] even if neither the mesit or the musat actually worshiped the false deity.

As long as he instructed him to worship [the false deity], he should be executed by stoning, regardless of whether the mesit was a prophet or an ordinary person, or whether the musat was a single individual - man or woman - or whether several people were proselytized.

Halacha 2
A person who proselytizes the majority of the inhabitants of a city is called a madiach rather than a mesit. If the person who leads the majority of a city astray is a prophet, he is executed by stoning, and the people who were led astray are judged as individuals, and are not considered to be inhabitants of an עיר הנדחת. [For the latter laws to be applied,] two people must proselytize them.

If a person says: "A false deity told me: 'Serve me,'" or "The Holy One, blessed be He, told me: 'Serve a false deity'" - he is considered a prophet who leads others astray. If the majority of the city's inhabitants are swayed by his words, he should be stoned to death.

A mesit should be stoned to death whether he proselytizes in plural terms or in singular. What is implied? He is considered a mesit if he tells a colleague, "I will worship a false deity. [Follow me.] I will go and worship..." or "Let us go and worship following the particular rite with which that deity is served," "I will slaughter. [Follow me.] I will go and slaughter..." or "Let us go and slaughter," "I will bring a burnt offering. [Follow me.] I will go and bring a burnt offering..." or "Let us go and bring a burnt offering," "I will offer a libation. [Follow me.] I will go and offer a libation..." or "Let us go and offer a libation," or "I will bow down. [Follow me.] I will go and bow down..." or "Let us go and bow down."

When a person proselytizes two individuals, they may serve as witnesses against him. They should summon him to court and testify against him, relating what he told them, and the mesit is stoned.

Halacha 3
A mesit does not need a warning.

If one proselytizes a single individual, the latter should tell him, "I have friends who would also be interested in this," and thus he should lure him into proselytizing before two people, so that the mesit can be executed.

If the mesit refuses to proselytize before two people, it is a mitzvah to set a trap for him. A trap is never set for a person who violates any of the Torah's other prohibitions. This is the only exception.

How is the trap set for him? The musat should bring two people and place them in a dark place where they can see the mesit and hear what he is saying without his seeing them. He tells the mesit: "Repeat what you told me privately."

[When] he does so, the musat should reply: "How can we forsake our God in heaven and serve wood and stone?" If [the mesit] retracts or remains silent, he is not held liable. If he tells him, "This is our obligation and this is beneficial to us," those who stand far off have him summoned to court and stoned.

Halacha 4
It is a mitzvah for the musat to kill [the mesit], as [Deuteronomy 13:10] states: "Your hand must be the first against him to kill him."

It is forbidden for the musat to love the mesit, as [the previous verse states]: "Do not be attracted to him." Since [Exodus 23:5] states with regard to an enemy: "You must surely help him," [the question arises:] Perhaps you should help a mesit? The Torah [Deuteronomy, ibid.] teaches, "Do not... listen to him."

Since [Leviticus 19:16] teaches: "Do not stand idly over your brother's blood," [the question arises:] Perhaps you should not stand idly over a mesit's blood? The Torah teaches, [Deuteronomy, ibid.] "Do not let your eyes pity him."

The musat is forbidden to advance any arguments on his behalf, as [the verse continues,] "Do not show him any compassion." If he knows incriminating evidence, he is not permitted to remain silent, as [the verse continues,] "Do not try to cover up for him."

What is the verse which serves as a warning against a common person proselytizing as a mesit? "And all Israel will hear and they will become afraid [and they will not continue to do such evil things]" (Deuteronomy 13:12).

Halacha 5
[The following rules apply to] a person who proselytizes others by telling them to worship him: Should he tell them: "Worship me," and they worship him, he should be stoned. If they did not worship him, even though they accepted and agreed to his statements, he is not liable for stoning.

In contrast, if he proselytizes by telling them to worship another man or another false deity, [different rules apply:] If they accept his statements and say, "We will go and worship," even if they have not actually worshiped, both of them - the mesit and the musat - should be stoned. [Deuteronomy 13:9] states: "Do not be attracted to him or listen to him." Thus, if one was attracted and listened, one is held liable.

Halacha 6
What is meant by [the expression,] a prophet who prophesies in the name of false gods? A person who says: "This false deity or this star told me that we are commanded to do such and such or to refrain from doing so." [This applies] even when he stated the law accurately, labeling the impure as impure and the pure as pure.

If a warning was given to him [beforehand], he is executed by strangulation, as [Deuteronomy 18:20] states: "And one who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." The warning against this [transgression] is included in the statement, [Exodus 23:13:] "And you shall not mention the name of other gods."

Halacha 7
It is forbidden to enter into a discussion or a debate with one who prophesies in the name of a false deity. We may not ask him to perform a sign or wonder, and if he does so on his own accord, we should pay no attention to it nor think about it.Whoever contemplates about the wonders [he performed, thinking], "Perhaps they are true," violates a negative commandment, as [Deuteronomy 13:4] states: "Do not listen to the words of that prophet."

Similarly, a false prophet should be executed by strangulation. [He is to be executed] although he speaks in the name of God and neither adds to nor diminishes [the mitzvot], as [Deuteronomy 18:20] states: "However, the prophet who dares to speak a matter in My name which I did not command - that prophet shall die."

Halacha 8
[The category of] a false prophet includes:
a) one who "prophesies" regarding something that was never heard through prophetic vision;
b) one who "prophesies" about a subject which he heard from another prophet, saying that this prophecy was given to him.

[Both of these individuals] are to be executed by strangulation.

Halacha 9
Anyone who refrains from executing a false prophet because of the latter's [spiritual] level, [as expressed by] his adherence to the paths of prophecy, violates a negative commandment, as [Deuteronomy 18:22] states: "Do not fear him." Similarly, included within [the scope of the prohibition:] "Do not fear him" are one who withholds incriminating testimony against [a false prophet] and one who is afraid or in awe of his words.

A false prophet may be tried only by the [supreme] court of 71 judges.

Halacha 10
A person who makes a vow or takes an oath in the name of a false deity is [liable for] lashes, as [Exodus 23:13] states: "And you shall not mention the name of other gods."

[This applies] both to one who takes such an oath for his own reasons and to one who takes such an oath because of a gentile. It is forbidden to have a gentile take an oath on his deity. It is even forbidden to mention the name of a gentile deity without any connection to an oath, as [implied by the expression], "You shall not mention."

Halacha 11
A person should not tell a colleague: "Wait for me near a particular false deity," or the like.

It is permitted to mention the name of any false deity that is mentioned in the Bible - e.g., Peor, Ba'al, Nevo, Gad, and the like. It is forbidden to cause others to take oaths or vows in the name of false deities. [In regard to all these prohibitions,] the only [transgressor] liable for lashes is one who [himself] makes a vow or an oath in the name [of a false deity].

Published and copyright by Moznaim Publications, all rights reserved.
To purchase this book or the entire series, please click here.
The text on this page contains sacred literature. Please do not deface or discard.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2013, 10:00:45 PM »
Well, actually... Paul did try to convert Jews. The christian gospels say to "go first to the Jew". Paul did try to convert Jews and retried. But he failed and therefore started to convert the non-Jews after.
How was he an infiltrator when he actually did try to convert Jews?

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2013, 11:06:29 PM »
Well, actually... Paul did try to convert Jews. The christian gospels say to "go first to the Jew". Paul did try to convert Jews and retried. But he failed and therefore started to convert the non-Jews after.
How was he an infiltrator when he actually did try to convert Jews?
I personally think he was a Roman... I also wonder if the early Christians were trying to convert religious Jews or the lost sheep?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Saxon Marauder

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2013, 01:06:36 AM »
Speaking as a Catholic layman here- there was always a distinction between the followers of the Old Law and the New Law. Or what we call Torah and Gospel. Anciently the hostility of the Christians and Jews is based upon a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Messiah on the part of both Christians and Jews themselves. As the Christian Religion is an evolving Religion and the continuation of the Jewish Religion- the two Religions are one and the same but seen from vastly different contexts and Covenants- it is the case of the younger becoming the superior of the older. Or the Old Religion must give way to the New Religion- but the followers of the Old Religion will still exist and have something to say to the followers of the New Religion. Christians believe that a remnant of Israel (i.e. Jews- but converts to Christianity or Torah Jews? I think it's the latter.) will survive to see the Second Coming.

I'm not trying to make converts.  Being a Catholic is not an easy process.  :P :dance: I don't like the Jewish-Messianics or the Christian-Zionists. Either one is a Jew or a Christian or a confused half-caste. I respect religious Jews entirely as the keepers of the Torah. One day we'll find out. Till then keep up the Good Fight!  :dance:
Cædmon's Hymn:

Now we must honour the Guardian of Heaven,
the might of the Architect, and His purpose,
the work of the Father of Glory-as He, the Eternal Lord, established the beginning of wonders. He, the Holy Creator, first created heaven as a roof
for the children of men. Then the Guardian of Mankind the Eternal Lord, the Lord Almighty
afterwards appointed the middle earth, the lands, for men.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2013, 02:18:24 AM »
Found Jews for Judaism on YouTube.... These guys have done a lot of research in order to answer the heretic Christian who tries to convert you...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2013, 02:35:36 AM »
Found Jews for Judaism on YouTube.... These guys have done a lot of research in order to answer the heretic Christian who tries to convert you...



Very good video, I love Rabbi Skobac.
Wow messianics are soo silly. Just hearing them sing is as ridiculous as "the feel good kumyaya" campfire songs. I unfortunately attended one of those campfires when I started college and had to go to a "retreat" as part of the freshman orientation. Messianics and kumbaya evangelicals are one and the same.

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2013, 02:43:24 AM »
Btw, have you seen the debates by Rabbi Tovia Singer.

I was watching this one, and I must say- The pastor's "I don't know" at the end of the video says it all.


Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2013, 04:00:27 PM »
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,67861.0.html

Two (if not more) things are completely clear:

1) The Christian Messiah is clearly not the Jewish Moshiach.
2) The Christian god is clearly not the Jewish G-d.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2013, 11:53:43 PM »
Two (if not more) things are completely clear:

1) The Christian Messiah is clearly not the Jewish Moshiach.
2) The Christian god is clearly not the Jewish G-d.

Muman, I am not an expert on the Temple sacrificial system...but I am getting a new theory. Basically, there were different types of sacrifices in the Temple. And different types of animals were used. From bulls to goats to sheep, to doves etc.. Not just a "lamb" but I think the christian tradition is to say "lamb of G-d" based on the Pesach sacrifice.
Anyways, I was pondering the topic, as I was studing Torah...and just happened to have been reading about the sacrifices. And I don't have the best memory but the sacrificial system was never about slaughter an animal and you're saved.
It was a complicated process. Including the sprinkling of the blood, burning the insides of the animal. And depending on the type of sacrifice, what the Kohanim would be able to partake in.

But then you get the Christian messiah theory, in which one man becomes the ultimate sacrifice. However, in Judaism- sacrifice is meaningless unless one has repentance. Let's say one person "dies" for everyone's sins....all people of the world. However, if such people had no repentance, there is no valid sacrifice.
Another point, how does one person dying on a cross fulfill the sacrificial system in the first place? The sacrificed animal is taken to the temple and IN the temple at the altar is sacrificed. It's blood must be sprinkled there. That is the sacrificial system. Not a vicarious human sacrifice... any type of sacrifice NOT done inside the temple.
Otherwise, why would  Hashem even set all the rules about how to do sacrifices, if He is just going to change His mind and break His own laws and suddenly, make a permissible sacrifice be 1) non animal and 2) not inside the temple- devoid of the entire sacrificial process.
Does this make any sense?

I hope I don't get in trouble, but this IS the Torah section. Hope no one is offended.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5019
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2013, 12:06:07 AM »
Muman, I am not an expert on the Temple sacrificial system...but I am getting a new theory. Basically, there were different types of sacrifices in the Temple. And different types of animals were used. From bulls to goats to sheep, to doves etc.. Not just a "lamb" but I think the christian tradition is to say "lamb of G-d" based on the Pesach sacrifice.
Anyways, I was pondering the topic, as I was studing Torah...and just happened to have been reading about the sacrifices. And I don't have the best memory but the sacrificial system was never about slaughter an animal and you're saved.
It was a complicated process. Including the sprinkling of the blood, burning the insides of the animal. And depending on the type of sacrifice, what the Kohanim would be able to partake in.

But then you get the Christian messiah theory, in which one man becomes the ultimate sacrifice. However, in Judaism- sacrifice is meaningless unless one has repentance. Let's say one person "dies" for everyone's sins....all people of the world. However, if such people had no repentance, there is no valid sacrifice.
Another point, how does one person dying on a cross fulfill the sacrificial system in the first place? The sacrificed animal is taken to the temple and IN the temple at the altar is sacrificed. It's blood must be sprinkled there. That is the sacrificial system. Not a vicarious human sacrifice... any type of sacrifice NOT done inside the temple.
Otherwise, why would  Hashem even set all the rules about how to do sacrifices, if He is just going to change His mind and break His own laws and suddenly, make a permissible sacrifice be 1) non animal and 2) not inside the temple- devoid of the entire sacrificial process.
Does this make any sense?

I hope I don't get in trouble, but this IS the Torah section. Hope no one is offended.
To me, Jesus would have been a human sacrifice... Hashem is against this right? So it makes no sense?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Saxon Marauder

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2013, 01:24:19 AM »
Two (if not more) things are completely clear:

1) The Christian Messiah is clearly not the Jewish Moshiach.
2) The Christian god is clearly not the Jewish G-d.

Keep in mind that the present incarnation of the Jewish Religion descends from what the Gospel calls the "scribes and Pharisees." Also keep in mind that Jesus had believers in the Sanhedrin itself, i.e. Nicodemus.  When the Romans, under Titus and Vespasian, destroyed Jerusalem in the year 70 of the present era the final split between the Christians and Jews, in religious terms, took place. After this the centers of the Christian Religion shifted to cities like Alexandria, Antioch, Damascus, Rome, etc. The center of the Jewish Religion, of course, remains in the ancestral city of Jerusalem.

It's not a well-understood historical topic to be honest. That is the split that caused Christians to separate from Jews in a religious sense. I'm not speaking of what Christians and Jews believe religiously but in a historical sense- although that might be an interesting topic for a spiritually-related thread.  :)

Cædmon's Hymn:

Now we must honour the Guardian of Heaven,
the might of the Architect, and His purpose,
the work of the Father of Glory-as He, the Eternal Lord, established the beginning of wonders. He, the Holy Creator, first created heaven as a roof
for the children of men. Then the Guardian of Mankind the Eternal Lord, the Lord Almighty
afterwards appointed the middle earth, the lands, for men.

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2013, 01:47:08 AM »
I think Paul had a lot to do with that. He wanted to witness to Jews but he failed at it. He once wrote he had enough of trying with Jews and decided to start going to the Gentiles. Of course, the Gentiles did not want to do circumcision nor live by the 613 laws (plus added Gentile beliefs and traditions) into the mix, thus creating a different type of Christianity.
The "Torah observant Jews" who  believed in J as the messiah did not have a concept of a Trinity and believed that J was subordinate to the "Father", and were called Nazarenes. They died out, and were replaced by what would later become recognizable Christianity.

Offline Saxon Marauder

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2013, 02:51:26 AM »
I think Paul had a lot to do with that. He wanted to witness to Jews but he failed at it. He once wrote he had enough of trying with Jews and decided to start going to the Gentiles. Of course, the Gentiles did not want to do circumcision nor live by the 613 laws (plus added Gentile beliefs and traditions) into the mix, thus creating a different type of Christianity.
The "Torah observant Jews" who  believed in J as the messiah did not have a concept of a Trinity and believed that J was subordinate to the "Father", and were called Nazarenes. They died out, and were replaced by what would later become recognizable Christianity.

St. Paul had less to do with with anything than might be realized. By his own admission, according to the Christian Writings, he belonged to the party of the Pharisees. After the death of St. Stephen St. Paul had some kind of conversion experience.

The Jewish Religion is respectable in that it contains the seeds of the Trinity. For example when Moses received the Commandments on Mt. Sinai he was not speaking to the Father but the Son.  The Father cannot be understood by human perceptions- so He sent the Son to bring good news.

The Jewish Religion believes in the Father; the Christian Religion believes in the Son.

I hope I make some sense. I'm not trying to make fun of Judaism of course!

Cædmon's Hymn:

Now we must honour the Guardian of Heaven,
the might of the Architect, and His purpose,
the work of the Father of Glory-as He, the Eternal Lord, established the beginning of wonders. He, the Holy Creator, first created heaven as a roof
for the children of men. Then the Guardian of Mankind the Eternal Lord, the Lord Almighty
afterwards appointed the middle earth, the lands, for men.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #44 on: June 06, 2013, 03:07:49 AM »
The 'Trinity' is an idolatrous belief and runs counter to Judaism. We reject completely any 'Trinity' of Hashem.

Our most intimate prayer, the Shema, affirms the UNITY and INDIVISIBLE nature of our G-d. Pagans have believed in a partnership of G-ds which was assumed by the Christian cult. It is the primary reason Jews will ultimately reject the belief in your so-called Messiah.

He was not Moshiach, and he was not G-d, and he (or his followers) led to a lot of problems in this world.

I cannot believe you are writing about such things here in the Torah section... I will kindly request you think about suggesting that there is a connection between Jewish belief and the belief in a 'trinity' of gods...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #45 on: June 06, 2013, 03:13:54 AM »
Hashem is One, indivisible and infinite... The Jewish belief in Hashem is borne from a direct command given at Mount Sinai. He said directly to the Jewish people that he is the ONLY G-d, there are no three parts of G-d. The 13 principles of faith according to Rambam clearly makes a division of G-d as a father, a son, and a ghost as ridiculous.




You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2013, 03:24:00 AM »
The Jewish Religion is respectable in that it contains the seeds of the Trinity. For example when Moses received the Commandments on Mt. Sinai he was not speaking to the Father but the Son.

However, can you provide proof that Moshe Rabbeinu was speaking to the "son"? Who said it was the son?

When G-d spoke to Moshe, He was very specific. G-d told Moshe "I AM" "I AM has sent you"- not "we are". Hashem was specific to let Moshe know that He is the G-d of Avraham Avinu, of Isaac and Yacov. The G-d of your fathers. And He said "I AM".

Furthermore, no part of Jewish scripture ever hints to any form of trinity beliefs. Indeed the early Christians did not have a concept of the trinity. Up until the Council of Nicea. Early church fathers did not have the concept either, such as Origen. It was very common before the council of Nicea for Christians to have a belief that "the son is subordinate to the Father", so while early Christians believed that he was the messiah, and son- they did not believe that he was a trinitarial entity. Not by a good couple years after that.
To prove this point further, the gospels (who were aimed at showing the son was subordinate to the father) depict Jeshu before his arrest asking his father to change what he had to do. So.... G-d is pleading with himself here? G-d forsake himself (when J was dying). For the reason that I mentioned, early Christians did not believe in a trinity until much much later. The gospels were written way before the council of nicea.


Lastly, what is the "Holy Spirit". G-d is not human, He is like a spirit and yet He is also another spirit that is Him at the same time. That concept, I have never been able to understand. I know the Christian response to it, to the "read about the Spirit of G-d in the Jewish bible" but that is not a separate entity. There are other Christian teachings that claim that the trinity can be found in the Jewish Bible. But even things as us "let us make man in our image" have been dispelled by Christian scholars.
The name of G-d that starts with an E and is "plural" is also dispelled as not meaning a "compound unity godhead". Hashem said that He is only G-d and He shares His glory with no one.
But you are saying that the G-d who gave the Torah at Mt. Sinai was J? Can you prove this out of Hebrew scripture sources?

My biggest question in discussing the trinity besides the "I AM" is...did J fear himself? Because one of the teachings about Moshiach is that he will be a man who will fear G-d. Yet if G-d was His own son, did He fear himself?

I am keeping it purely on the topic of Trinity and Paul. So I won't touch other topics.

The gospels, Matthew was aimed at converting Jews- but it had so many mistranslations of the Jewish bible- that it failed at converting Jews. Here is where we see lack of verses or misrepresented verses. Paul, however, was more successful. If we recall, J said to go to the Jews first. That is what the Nazarene tried to do. Paul could not get masses of Jews to convert, but he was easily getting masses of Gentiles to convert.

Rabbi Tovia Singer, one of my teachers, explains in detail the aim of Paul and how the Jewish scriptures do not support a trinitarian concept. He lays down the exact verses in the Jewish bible that have been mistranslated:

Trinity:
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_the_trinity_mp3.html

Paul and corruption of the Jewish scriptures:

http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_paul_mp3.html

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2013, 12:09:21 PM »
You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate.  We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud.  The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach.  So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours." 

The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums.  So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely. 

Otherwise, I'm locking this thread. 

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2013, 02:40:07 PM »
You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate.  We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud.  The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach.  So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours." 

The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums.  So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely. 

Otherwise, I'm locking this thread.

Gotta say I am quite disappointed with this response. I would have thought that a Torah and Jewish Idea section of any Jewish forum would not suppress this discussion. And the discussion has been primarily aimed at the claims made by missionaries attempting to convert Jews.

I do not know any Christian forum which would try to stifle the discussion of their theology...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: A New low for messianics
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2013, 03:12:36 PM »
Gotta say I am quite disappointed with this response. I would have thought that a Torah and Jewish Idea section of any Jewish forum would not suppress this discussion. And the discussion has been primarily aimed at the claims made by missionaries attempting to convert Jews.

I do not know any Christian forum which would try to stifle the discussion of their theology...

Look, I haven't locked the thread, and I won't do so as long as the discussion is civil.  The problem is that these types of threads usually end up with bickering members, regardless of what section of the forum they're on, which I don't want to see.  Now it's fine if someone wants to post about Jewish beliefs, and how we don't believe in dividing up G-d into different parts, or making him into a man. 

But everyone, please keep it respectful.