A New low for messianics

[muman613]

Look, I haven't locked the thread, and I won't do so as long as the discussion is civil.  The problem is that these types of threads usually end up with bickering members, regardless of what section of the forum they're on, which I don't want to see.  Now it's fine if someone wants to post about Jewish beliefs, and how we don't believe in dividing up G-d into different parts, or making him into a man. 

But everyone, please keep it respectful.

Lisa, I realize you are doing what is considered best for the forum. I do not want to argue about theology with non-Jews. It is pointless and it is not essential for the Jewish mission to convert everyone to believe what we believe. But there are some things which Jews must stand strong against, and this is one of them...

I will respect your wishes, and the best interest of the forum, and attempt to avoid these kinds of discussions. As everyone knows I feel that it is important to keep the Jewish people Jewish, and point out that there are those who are willing to trick them into believing that they are observing Judaism while engaging in beliefs which our sages saw as heresy...

[Sveta]

Lisa, I understand that you have to keep the peace no argument there. I am sorry that you got the impression that this turned into a "what region is better". No one implied this.
However, everything was ok until we got the post that says that the trnity is seeded in the Jewish bible. I understand that Christians can express their love for their faith in the General Discussion section...but to do it in the Torah section? How else were we supposed to reply to such a clam, that speaks aout our Biblle.If we are not allowed to respond to thhese type of claims (that missionaries use) in our very own Torah section...then wiith all due respect maybe it should be locked then. We made our point regarding the trinity and the Jewish bible.
However, perhaps the Christian members can be a little more sensitive when they post in the Torah section in the future, so this will not happen again. To post such claims about the trinity and Judaism and then tel us that it was J who spoke to us at Mt. Sinai is a very bold claim for the Torah section. I have no problem with Saxon but I don't understand how someone could make such claim and then be offended by our reples.
I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone. I'll drop it but again ask people of other religions to PLEASE be be double check what they post in the Torah section.
thank you

[Lisa]

Lisa, I realize you are doing what is considered best for the forum. I do not want to argue about theology with non-Jews. It is pointless and it is not essential for the Jewish mission to convert everyone to believe what we believe. But there are some things which Jews must stand strong against, and this is one of them...

I will respect your wishes, and the best interest of the forum, and attempt to avoid these kinds of discussions. As everyone knows I feel that it is important to keep the Jewish people Jewish, and point out that there are those who are willing to trick them into believing that they are observing Judaism while engaging in beliefs which our sages saw as heresy...

OK, I'm looking now, and everything looks OK.  Carry on, I guess.

[Lisa]

Lisa, I understand that you have to keep the peace no argument there. I am sorry that you got the impression that this turned into a "what region is better". No one implied this.
However, everything was ok until we got the post that says that the trnity is seeded in the Jewish bible. I understand that Christians can express their love for their faith in the General Discussion section...but to do it in the Torah section? How else were we supposed to reply to such a clam, that speaks aout our Biblle.If we are not allowed to respond to thhese type of claims (that missionaries use) in our very own Torah section...then wiith all due respect maybe it should be locked then. We made our point regarding the trinity and the Jewish bible.
However, perhaps the Christian members can be a little more sensitive when they post in the Torah section in the future, so this will not happen again. To post such claims about the trinity and Judaism and then tel us that it was J who spoke to us at Mt. Sinai is a very bold claim for the Torah section. I have no problem with Saxon but I don't understand how someone could make such claim and then be offended by our reples.
I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone. I'll drop it but again ask people of other religions to PLEASE be be double check what they post in the Torah section.
thank you

OK Israeli Heart, I see where you're coming from.  (I thought Saxon was posting about how Moses spoke to the son on Mt. Sinai, which I didn't understand.) 

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I think this type of discussion is good, Jews need to have it rammed into their heads that there is only one G-d. Some Christians may wonder how their religion got so far from Judaism, and they need to know the truth. If Christians don't want to know the truth, they shouldn't read this section.

I'm Noachide, it's my job.

[Sveta]

I hope I was not rude to anyone though.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I hope I was not rude to anyone though.

I didn't think you were at all, you spoke the truth! Also great links.

[Saxon Marauder]

You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate.  We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud.  The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach.  So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours." 

The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums.  So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely. 

Otherwise, I'm locking this thread.

I respect Jews who follow Judaism- like Rebbe Kahane and his students and not, say, Jews who want to be Christians like the "Jews for Jesus" crowd. Likewise I hold in contempt Christians who want to become Jews or follow the Torah and not the Gospel. These religious hybrids only sow confusion within their respective Jewish and Christian communities because they engage in religious deception.

I am in disgust of political Jews inasmuch as I am disgusted by political Catholics. Snakes. Vipers.

Jesus says "A man cannot serve two masters." I serve my religion- and make no demands of Jews to serve or submit to Catholicism. It's undignified. Gross. Evil. I will oppose any so-called Christian who tries to subject religious Jews to Christianity- but also vice-versa.

Outside of public discourse Catholics have no ability to influence Judaism. Anciently Catholicism has always held Judaism to be an independent religion that the clergy has no influence over.

[muman613]

Please spare us Saxon Marauder... You know as well as we do what the 'Catholic' church did to the Jewish people through-out history.... I hope you were just making an ignorant comment and not attempting to white-wash history.

And may I ask what is your intention with the 'nic' of 'Saxon Marauder'? The last time I took a history class was about 25 years ago but I did look it up. It seems odd to me your selection of that name in light of this information:

After a bloody struggle that lasted thirty years (772-804), the Saxons were finally brought under Frankish supremacy by the great Frankish ruler, Charlemagne. The earliest date at which it can be proved that Charlemagne had the conquest of the Saxon districts in view is 776. Charlemagne was also able to win them to Christianity, the Saxons being the last German tribe that still held persistently to belief in the Germanic gods. At different times the Saxon wars of Charlemagne have been called "religious wars." The assertion, which cannot be proved, has been made that Pope Adrian I had called upon Charlemagne to convert the Saxons by force. Charlemagne's campaigns were intended mainly to punish the Saxons for their annual marauding expeditions to the Rhine, in which they burned churches and monasteries, killed the priests, and sacrificed their prisoners of war to the gods. At the same time it is true that various measures taken by Charlemagne, as the execution of 4500 Saxons at Verden in 782 and the hard laws issued to the subjugated, were shortsighted and cruel.

It was believed that if peace was to be permanent the overthrow of the Saxons must be accompanied by their conversion to Christianity. The work of converting Saxony was given to St. Sturmi, who was on terms of friendship with Charlemagne, and the monks of the monastery of Fulda founded by Sturmi. Among the successful missionaries were also St. Willehad, the first Bishop of Bremen, and his Anglo-Saxon companions. After St. Sturmi's death (779) the country of the Saxons was divided into missionary districts, and each of these placed under a Frankish bishop. Parishes were established within the old judicial districts. With the generous aid of Charlemagne and his nobles large numbers of churches and monasteries were founded, and as soon as peace and quiet had been re-established in the different districts, permanent dioceses were founded.

Does it seem to you that the Saxon's willingly accepted the imposed 'conversion' to Catholicism? 4500 were slain by Charlemagne. Indeed the Saxons were originally 'marauding' barbarians to the church...

The Catholic church has a lot of blood on it's hands, both Jewish and other religions...

Nobody here wants to convert you... Just keep the crazy lunatics of the Mel Gibson variety in check and things will be ok...

[Sveta]

Please spare us Saxon Marauder... You know as well as we do what the 'Catholic' church did to the Jewish people through-out history.... I hope you were just making an ignorant comment and not attempting to white-wash history.

Being that my ancestors were Sephardic Jews who suffered greatly by the Inquisition that the catholic church propogated against Jews in Spain, when I think of catholicism, I usually picture this: (please be warned, there are some graphic scenes in the video- BUT it is NOTHING compared to what happened in real life) In this scene, some "Conversos" who were forced-converts to catholicism but were found to be secretly praciticing Judaism are being burned at the stake. Before being burned alive, some were offered to "repent" and be spared of the fire by being stragled. We can see that these people being burned were saying the Shema  before dying, one becomes afraid and "accepts" absolution but it killed by the "garrote". Some brotherly love indeed.




It's just the mental image I get. I have met some really nice Catholics in my days, I have also met some (pre-Vatican II) types who were very mean. But that's true even for protestants. I believe it was Pope John Paul II, who apologized to all Jews for the many atrocities of the church. Ok, that was nice to recognize it. But the point I am making is that...

When a man kills another- is saying sorry good enough? Is there not a penalty or a death sentence? We realize how many Jews were killed by the Catholic church in sooo many years. Is saying "we are sorry" just going to wipe the killings away? Do we not think that Hashem serves punishment for the blood spilled?

[cjd]

Being that my ancestors were Sephardic Jews who suffered greatly by the Inquisition that the catholic church propogated against Jews in Spain, when I think of catholicism, I usually picture this: (please be warned, there are some graphic scenes in the video- BUT it is NOTHING compared to what happened in real life) In this scene, some "Conversos" who were forced-converts to catholicism but were found to be secretly praciticing Judaism are being burned at the stake. Before being burned alive, some were offered to "repent" and be spared of the fired by being stragled. We can see that these people being burned were saying the Shema  before dying, one becomes afraid and "accepts" absolution but it killed by the "garrote". Some brotherly love indeed.




It's just the mental image I get. I have met some really nice Catholics in my days, I have also met some (pre-Vatican II) types who were very mean. But that's true even for protestants. I believe it was Pope John Paul II, who apologized to all Jews for the many atrocities of the church. Ok, that was nice to recognize it. But the point I am making is that...

When a man kills another- is saying sorry good enough? Is there not a penalty or a death sentence? We realize how many Jews were killed by the Catholic church in sooo many years. Is saying "we are sorry" just going to wipe the killings away? Do we not think that Hashem serves punishment for the blood spilled?

Well since it is impossible to bring back the dead what more is there to do for the church but to apologize and work towards better relations moving forward... If  Hashem is serving punishment to the ones who deserve it so be it.

[Sveta]

Well since it is impossible to bring back the dead

Well, technically speaking...when Moshiach comes, the dead will rise

But anyways, the inquisition is the picture I get of the church. To others it may be the holocaust, others the pogroms etc..etc..

[cjd]

Well, technically speaking...when Moshiach comes, the dead will rise

But anyways, the inquisition is the picture I get of the church. To others it may be the holocaust, others the pogroms etc..etc..

Well I don't know that the church was responsible for the holocaust but that's another story... I am sure besides religious were some political motivations to some of this as well... It's good to be informed of the past but I think it's more important to see what's up ahead... I might be like an old horse with blinders on but it seems to me the present day dangers for the Jewish people are coming from places other than Rome.

[Sveta]

I didn't say the church itself created the holocaust. But the perpretators of the holocaust were of christian religions. Catholic or Protestant. Regardless of the 3rd Reich trying to be pagan or atheist.. The culture of Europe was one where the majority was Christian and had been used to hundreds of years where it was allowed to do pogroms against Jews. Where it was allowed for (catholics and protestants) to go to Jewish villages and kill people just for being Jewish. I mean in almost every European city (catholic or protestant) there was some type of anti-Semitic historical event. You can search for Orleans France, Lancashire, Oslo, Madrid, Krakow, St. Petersburg etc..etc.. and in every history of the city there will be some "Anti-Semitism in..."

Hundreds and hundreds of years or murder ALL lead up to the ultimate act of massive murder of the Holocaust.

In Judaism, however, there is a teaching. And that is to NEVER be afraid of anyone- of anything. Only be afraid of G-d. There is also a teaching that says about Israel "Your destroyers come from within". I am not afraid of Rome and am not afraid of some anti-Semitic cardinals who proclaim that Gaza is like the concentration camp or a Ghetto. I'll never be afraid of them, only of Hashem. They are only a threat if we anger G-d. However, there is a history of the Christian churches that is a sad one. One that hurts. Fortunately, times have changed and while I obviously don't hate the Christians of today (because they are not responsible for the atrocities of their ancestors) I am still going to remember the past and honor my ancestor's memories for the suffering they went through. 
My only problem today are with Christians who are anti-Semitic (the pre-Vatican II types like Mel Gibsons father), the pro-fakestine liberal Christians and the missionary Christians who go to Jewish neighborhoods to try to destroy souls.
All others I have no problem with. But I think it is understandable for me to have some hurt pain knowing about the Inquisition and what my own blood went through in the past, even if it was a long time ago.

[mord]

Paul created Christianity Jesus was just into reinterpretation of Judaism alot less so then modern deformed and some Conservatives.If he lived today he would be Just another Jewish Rabbi who no Jew would complain about.

[muman613]

Paul created Christianity Jesus was just into reinterpretation of Judaism alot less so then modern deformed and some Conservatives.If he lived today he would be Just another Jewish Rabbi who no Jew would complain about.

I strongly disagree with this statement mord. Both Reform and Conservative reject the 'trinity' and the idea that a man could be G-d, and that he was Moshiach. Maybe they are similar in that they reject the divinity of the Scripture and disregard the 613 mitzvot. But I was Bar Mitzvahed in Conservative shul and it is NOTHING like Christianity.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Paul created Christianity Jesus was just into reinterpretation of Judaism alot less so then modern deformed and some Conservatives.If he lived today he would be Just another Jewish Rabbi who no Jew would complain about.

 No Jew would complain about? Huh? Maybe not the politically correct Jews, yea I agree with that but he did do things very anti-Jewish and against the Torah. He also went back and forth at times saying one thing and then another thing (the opposite).

 for example he publicly desecrated Shabbat even though their was no need to (like a life risk) and then he said to follow the laws of Shabbat and follow the Pharasis (Rabbis). So definitely a confused individual.

[mord]

He was giving an example like dovid did when he took the challah from the the ahron HaKodesh.He was Just agasinst the rich Jews who didn't care about the poor.Many people say he was an essene ,but others claim he himself was pharrisse.In any event Paul caused the trouble Does this sound like a self hating Jew                  http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080613120536AAA1w6f 

Resolved Question
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What is the significance of Jesus' reference to Gentiles as dogs?
The story is told in Matthew 15:21-28 and Mark 7:24-30. In it he refuses to exorcise the daughter of a Syro-Phoenician woman, a Gentile, referring to her as a dog, while there are still Jews to cater for; he only relents when the mother begs for scraps like a dog.

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Ben Ben
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
Yes, that's sad, but Jesus indeed never liked Gentiles. He considered them like dogs
and pigs. Interesting that he did cure that woman's daughter but because he recognised her condition of dog and would be happy with the crumbs from the table of the masters.

Also when he was delivering the Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, he warned them not to give what's holy to the dogs or cast their pearls before swine. That's in Matthew 7:6. Obviously, if he was talking to the Jews, he was talking about the Gentiles.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Did anyone watch the videos?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Mord just because jesus called gentiles "dogs" and other such negative things doesn't make him a good Jew.
 1) We as Jews don't consider someone or refer to someone as a "dog" or such just because he is a gentile and we generally respect different people. Now if they are an enemy like the Arab-Nazis of today I have no problem and I do refer to them as dogs.
2  That (even if you somehow equate him being some "right-wing" nationalistic Jew still doesn't take away the fact that he did some things against Jewish law and even he admitted it and in other places he said to follow it. Soo he basically condemns himself. by his actions and his words.

 and P.S. fyi I dont understand how any gentile can seriously look up to him after seeing the way he spoke about them. They should be more offended by him and his words then the Jews could ever be.


 Also just to add to your comment, it would be like saying that someone who calls himself a Kahanist and makes extreme nationalistic statements but then advocates the eating of pork is a good Jew and on top of that a good Rabbi that no Jew can or should oppose.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

I think the NT was changed a lot by by Paul, Rome, ect. I don't think most of the stuff that is against Judaism came from him... When Jesus was alive it was a turbulent time for Israel, and yes, I do believe he didn't like Gentiles and Roman oppression.

[Sveta]

I think the NT was changed a lot by by Paul, Rome, ect. I don't think most of the stuff that is against Judaism came from him... When Jesus was alive it was a turbulent time for Israel, and yes, I do believe he didn't like Gentiles and Roman oppression.

Good point. And in fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer used a good quote to describe it. "Rome did not convert to Christianity but rather Christianity converted to Rome".

It was in the time of the Council of Nicaea (not in Rome itself but under the Roman Emperor Constantine) where a lot of current day Christian doctrine was decided. It was in this council where the Trinity officially became a foundation of the Christian faith. It was in this council where Chrisitian holidays were decided upon.
This paved the way for the books of the Christian bible to be included and which ones to be omitted. For example including the gospel of Matthew and excluding the gospel of Thomas and so on.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

Good point. And in fact, Rabbi Tovia Singer used a good quote to describe it. "Rome did not convert to Christianity but rather Christianity converted to Rome".

It was in the time of the Council of Nicaea (not in Rome itself but under the Roman Emperor Constantine) where a lot of current day Christian doctrine was decided. It was in this council where the Trinity officially became a foundation of the Christian faith. It was in this council where Chrisitian holidays were decided upon.
This paved the way for the books of the Christian bible to be included and which ones to be omitted. For example including the gospel of Matthew and excluding the gospel of Thomas and so on.

Exactly ma'am!

[mord]

Mord just because jesus called gentiles "dogs" and other such negative things doesn't make him a good Jew.
 1) We as Jews don't consider someone or refer to someone as a "dog" or such just because he is a gentile and we generally respect different people. Now if they are an enemy like the Arab-Nazis of today I have no problem and I do refer to them as dogs.
2  That (even if you somehow equate him being some "right-wing" nationalistic Jew still doesn't take away the fact that he did some things against Jewish law and even he admitted it and in other places he said to follow it. Soo he basically condemns himself. by his actions and his words.

 and P.S. fyi I dont understand how any gentile can seriously look up to him after seeing the way he spoke about them. They should be more offended by him and his words then the Jews could ever be.


 Also just to add to your comment, it would be like saying that someone who calls himself a Kahanist and makes extreme nationalistic statements but then advocates the eating of pork is a good Jew and on top of that a good Rabbi that no Jew can or should oppose.

I agree with you i would never call most people dogs [although i like dogs] but at that time Israel was occupied every day the people had to live with terrible persecution,many people acted this way towards gentiles because they felt it was the source of their problems

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I agree with you i would never call most people dogs [although i like dogs] but at that time Israel was occupied every day the people had to live with terrible persecution,many people acted this way towards gentiles because they felt it was the source of their problems

 How do you know if people did or did not act this way? At the same time people like Rabbi Akiva and the Rabbis of the Talmudh lived and they don't refer to gentiles as "dogs" soo why are you whitewashing the actions of jesus? Either way if this was the "savior" of the gentiles yet her refers to them like that, I personally would never look up to him especially if I was a gentile.