Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
A New low for messianics
Ephraim Ben Noach:
--- Quote from: IsraeliHeart on June 04, 2013, 11:53:43 PM ---Muman, I am not an expert on the Temple sacrificial system...but I am getting a new theory. Basically, there were different types of sacrifices in the Temple. And different types of animals were used. From bulls to goats to sheep, to doves etc.. Not just a "lamb" but I think the christian tradition is to say "lamb of G-d" based on the Pesach sacrifice.
Anyways, I was pondering the topic, as I was studing Torah...and just happened to have been reading about the sacrifices. And I don't have the best memory but the sacrificial system was never about slaughter an animal and you're saved.
It was a complicated process. Including the sprinkling of the blood, burning the insides of the animal. And depending on the type of sacrifice, what the Kohanim would be able to partake in.
But then you get the Christian messiah theory, in which one man becomes the ultimate sacrifice. However, in Judaism- sacrifice is meaningless unless one has repentance. Let's say one person "dies" for everyone's sins....all people of the world. However, if such people had no repentance, there is no valid sacrifice.
Another point, how does one person dying on a cross fulfill the sacrificial system in the first place? The sacrificed animal is taken to the temple and IN the temple at the altar is sacrificed. It's blood must be sprinkled there. That is the sacrificial system. Not a vicarious human sacrifice... any type of sacrifice NOT done inside the temple.
Otherwise, why would Hashem even set all the rules about how to do sacrifices, if He is just going to change His mind and break His own laws and suddenly, make a permissible sacrifice be 1) non animal and 2) not inside the temple- devoid of the entire sacrificial process.
Does this make any sense?
I hope I don't get in trouble, but this IS the Torah section. Hope no one is offended.
--- End quote ---
To me, Jesus would have been a human sacrifice... Hashem is against this right? So it makes no sense?
Saxon Marauder:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 04, 2013, 04:00:27 PM ---Two (if not more) things are completely clear:
1) The Christian Messiah is clearly not the Jewish Moshiach.
2) The Christian god is clearly not the Jewish G-d.
--- End quote ---
Keep in mind that the present incarnation of the Jewish Religion descends from what the Gospel calls the "scribes and Pharisees." Also keep in mind that Jesus had believers in the Sanhedrin itself, i.e. Nicodemus. When the Romans, under Titus and Vespasian, destroyed Jerusalem in the year 70 of the present era the final split between the Christians and Jews, in religious terms, took place. After this the centers of the Christian Religion shifted to cities like Alexandria, Antioch, Damascus, Rome, etc. The center of the Jewish Religion, of course, remains in the ancestral city of Jerusalem.
It's not a well-understood historical topic to be honest. That is the split that caused Christians to separate from Jews in a religious sense. I'm not speaking of what Christians and Jews believe religiously but in a historical sense- although that might be an interesting topic for a spiritually-related thread. :)
Sveta:
I think Paul had a lot to do with that. He wanted to witness to Jews but he failed at it. He once wrote he had enough of trying with Jews and decided to start going to the Gentiles. Of course, the Gentiles did not want to do circumcision nor live by the 613 laws (plus added Gentile beliefs and traditions) into the mix, thus creating a different type of Christianity.
The "Torah observant Jews" who believed in J as the messiah did not have a concept of a Trinity and believed that J was subordinate to the "Father", and were called Nazarenes. They died out, and were replaced by what would later become recognizable Christianity.
Saxon Marauder:
--- Quote from: IsraeliHeart on June 05, 2013, 01:47:08 AM ---I think Paul had a lot to do with that. He wanted to witness to Jews but he failed at it. He once wrote he had enough of trying with Jews and decided to start going to the Gentiles. Of course, the Gentiles did not want to do circumcision nor live by the 613 laws (plus added Gentile beliefs and traditions) into the mix, thus creating a different type of Christianity.
The "Torah observant Jews" who believed in J as the messiah did not have a concept of a Trinity and believed that J was subordinate to the "Father", and were called Nazarenes. They died out, and were replaced by what would later become recognizable Christianity.
--- End quote ---
St. Paul had less to do with with anything than might be realized. By his own admission, according to the Christian Writings, he belonged to the party of the Pharisees. After the death of St. Stephen St. Paul had some kind of conversion experience.
The Jewish Religion is respectable in that it contains the seeds of the Trinity. For example when Moses received the Commandments on Mt. Sinai he was not speaking to the Father but the Son. The Father cannot be understood by human perceptions- so He sent the Son to bring good news.
The Jewish Religion believes in the Father; the Christian Religion believes in the Son.
I hope I make some sense. I'm not trying to make fun of Judaism of course!
muman613:
The 'Trinity' is an idolatrous belief and runs counter to Judaism. We reject completely any 'Trinity' of Hashem.
Our most intimate prayer, the Shema, affirms the UNITY and INDIVISIBLE nature of our G-d. Pagans have believed in a partnership of G-ds which was assumed by the Christian cult. It is the primary reason Jews will ultimately reject the belief in your so-called Messiah.
He was not Moshiach, and he was not G-d, and he (or his followers) led to a lot of problems in this world.
I cannot believe you are writing about such things here in the Torah section... I will kindly request you think about suggesting that there is a connection between Jewish belief and the belief in a 'trinity' of gods...
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