Torah and Jewish Idea > Torah and Jewish Idea
A New low for messianics
muman613:
Hashem is One, indivisible and infinite... The Jewish belief in Hashem is borne from a direct command given at Mount Sinai. He said directly to the Jewish people that he is the ONLY G-d, there are no three parts of G-d. The 13 principles of faith according to Rambam clearly makes a division of G-d as a father, a son, and a ghost as ridiculous.
Sveta:
--- Quote from: Saxon Marauder on June 06, 2013, 02:51:26 AM ---The Jewish Religion is respectable in that it contains the seeds of the Trinity. For example when Moses received the Commandments on Mt. Sinai he was not speaking to the Father but the Son.
--- End quote ---
However, can you provide proof that Moshe Rabbeinu was speaking to the "son"? Who said it was the son?
When G-d spoke to Moshe, He was very specific. G-d told Moshe "I AM" "I AM has sent you"- not "we are". Hashem was specific to let Moshe know that He is the G-d of Avraham Avinu, of Isaac and Yacov. The G-d of your fathers. And He said "I AM".
Furthermore, no part of Jewish scripture ever hints to any form of trinity beliefs. Indeed the early Christians did not have a concept of the trinity. Up until the Council of Nicea. Early church fathers did not have the concept either, such as Origen. It was very common before the council of Nicea for Christians to have a belief that "the son is subordinate to the Father", so while early Christians believed that he was the messiah, and son- they did not believe that he was a trinitarial entity. Not by a good couple years after that.
To prove this point further, the gospels (who were aimed at showing the son was subordinate to the father) depict Jeshu before his arrest asking his father to change what he had to do. So.... G-d is pleading with himself here? G-d forsake himself (when J was dying). For the reason that I mentioned, early Christians did not believe in a trinity until much much later. The gospels were written way before the council of nicea.
Lastly, what is the "Holy Spirit". G-d is not human, He is like a spirit and yet He is also another spirit that is Him at the same time. That concept, I have never been able to understand. I know the Christian response to it, to the "read about the Spirit of G-d in the Jewish bible" but that is not a separate entity. There are other Christian teachings that claim that the trinity can be found in the Jewish Bible. But even things as us "let us make man in our image" have been dispelled by Christian scholars.
The name of G-d that starts with an E and is "plural" is also dispelled as not meaning a "compound unity godhead". Hashem said that He is only G-d and He shares His glory with no one.
But you are saying that the G-d who gave the Torah at Mt. Sinai was J? Can you prove this out of Hebrew scripture sources?
My biggest question in discussing the trinity besides the "I AM" is...did J fear himself? Because one of the teachings about Moshiach is that he will be a man who will fear G-d. Yet if G-d was His own son, did He fear himself?
I am keeping it purely on the topic of Trinity and Paul. So I won't touch other topics.
The gospels, Matthew was aimed at converting Jews- but it had so many mistranslations of the Jewish bible- that it failed at converting Jews. Here is where we see lack of verses or misrepresented verses. Paul, however, was more successful. If we recall, J said to go to the Jews first. That is what the Nazarene tried to do. Paul could not get masses of Jews to convert, but he was easily getting masses of Gentiles to convert.
Rabbi Tovia Singer, one of my teachers, explains in detail the aim of Paul and how the Jewish scriptures do not support a trinitarian concept. He lays down the exact verses in the Jewish bible that have been mistranslated:
Trinity:
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_the_trinity_mp3.html
Paul and corruption of the Jewish scriptures:
http://www.torahanytime.com/rabbi_singer_paul_mp3.html
Lisa:
You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate. We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud. The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach. So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours."
The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums. So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely.
Otherwise, I'm locking this thread.
muman613:
--- Quote from: Lisa on June 06, 2013, 12:09:21 PM ---You guys, I don't want this to become a Judaism vs. Christianity debate. We Jews believe in Judaism from the Torah and Talmud. The Christians believe in the NT as a continuation of the Tanach. So I don't want this degenerating into a thread about how "my religion is better than yours."
The subject of when Christianity separated from Judaism, and the resulting differences between the two religions could be the subject of entire books or forums. So if you guys want to continue the discussion, either do it via private messages or off the forum completely.
Otherwise, I'm locking this thread.
--- End quote ---
Gotta say I am quite disappointed with this response. I would have thought that a Torah and Jewish Idea section of any Jewish forum would not suppress this discussion. And the discussion has been primarily aimed at the claims made by missionaries attempting to convert Jews.
I do not know any Christian forum which would try to stifle the discussion of their theology...
Lisa:
--- Quote from: muman613 on June 06, 2013, 02:40:07 PM ---Gotta say I am quite disappointed with this response. I would have thought that a Torah and Jewish Idea section of any Jewish forum would not suppress this discussion. And the discussion has been primarily aimed at the claims made by missionaries attempting to convert Jews.
I do not know any Christian forum which would try to stifle the discussion of their theology...
--- End quote ---
Look, I haven't locked the thread, and I won't do so as long as the discussion is civil. The problem is that these types of threads usually end up with bickering members, regardless of what section of the forum they're on, which I don't want to see. Now it's fine if someone wants to post about Jewish beliefs, and how we don't believe in dividing up G-d into different parts, or making him into a man.
But everyone, please keep it respectful.
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